1 10 12 https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/b02948443a74a580b6c0b2fac77be120.jpg 46ec92efd70efbd3b5a2f4fdb4dcde8f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Nguyen OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2018oh003_btba_001.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Walter Nguyen, August 23, 2018 2018oh003_btba_001 1:43:44 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Dr. Walter Nguyen Betsy Brody mp3 oh-audio-dig-nguyewh20180823.mp3 1:|13(14)|19(10)|26(6)|34(13)|44(9)|53(9)|60(8)|69(4)|78(11)|87(4)|95(13)|103(2)|111(1)|119(2)|130(11)|138(5)|148(10)|156(7)|166(5)|177(2)|185(1)|193(4)|202(10)|211(5)|221(6)|229(3)|238(14)|248(1)|257(14)|266(10)|274(10)|283(11)|292(7)|300(7)|309(4)|314(9)|323(12)|330(15)|339(5)|348(11)|360(1)|369(9)|376(8)|384(10)|395(1)|404(14)|415(3)|422(5)|431(11)|438(9)|447(5)|455(4)|461(6)|468(3)|473(9)|479(10)|487(11)|495(4)|503(13)|514(3)|524(6)|534(8)|542(10)|546(14)|553(8)|560(2)|567(5)|574(3)|584(3)|592(9)|602(1)|607(6)|617(6)|627(5)|637(6)|647(1)|653(14)|663(12)|673(11)|683(11)|692(8)|700(2)|707(8)|717(6)|725(11)|732(3)|740(11)|747(3)|757(1)|764(4)|770(7)|777(3)|785(5)|793(10)|800(15)|809(13)|818(12)|827(11)|836(12)|842(12)|851(11)|860(11)|870(4) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/114081 Aviary audio 3 Introduction 30 Life in Vietnam after 1975 BRODY: Just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam? NGUYEN: My life in Vietnam before I arrived in America was not good. It’s—you know, it was post-1975, I was still there and lived under the new government’s communist system for roughly seven to eight years or so, and I completely did not have any job. I was constantly under watch and spied on, mainly because I, before the Fall of Saigon, after my graduation from the University of Saigon, I worked for the South Vietnamese government as a press officer. That’s why they highly suspected my whereabouts, my background, and would not allow me to apply for any job with the new—whether it’s government or private entity, because they always frowned upon or look with a suspicious eye on anyone who had any tie with the former regime as well as the government, or even the American government then. So yes, so life was very rough. Food was scarce and no jobs, no transportation, even places to live, you know, had—this is rough, there is no place, permanent residence or anything. I lived with a relative who—my entirely family did, so it’s been very hard under that kind of condition, yeah. |00:02:51| BRODY: How old were you at the time of the Fall of Saigon? NGUYEN: I was twenty-four, going on to twenty-five years old. Fall of Saigon;post-war Vietnam;surveillance;University of Saigon 230 Finding an English teaching job BRODY: Okay. So then, life was hard and it was hard to—no food, no job, it was difficult. What happened to you after the Fall of Saigon? What did you do next? NGUYEN: I’d—for almost two or three years or so, you know, I kept searching for a job. It hadn’t been that easy. Like I said earlier, with all the—with the background in the way they look at who they should have employed and so forth, very hard. There was a short period in 1979, starting in 1979, I was able to find a teaching job, English teaching. Mostly it’s just kind of a private tutoring with families, with young people and rich families who wanted their kids to learn English because a lot of people wanted to get out, and they thought that English would be something that—a language that most people need to learn, and because I graduated as an English major, so I was able to find a short-time teaching job. But that didn’t last long, mainly because it didn’t really make—I couldn’t make a living out of it, but then also my desire at the time was to find a way to get out. employment;English;jobs;teaching English 283 Failed attempts to leave Vietnam/Arrest and Jail BRODY: So you had your eyes on leaving Vietnam the whole time. So how did it come to pass that you were able to leave? NGUYEN: Yeah, actually, my first attempt to leave Vietnam was in 1979, was only like four years after the Fall of Saigon. But it was unsuccessful, poorly planned, and I actually got arrested and was put in jail for about three months with no official charge of anything besides the fact that they said, you know, “If you’re trying to escape Vietnam, you’re committing treason. And our punishment could be anywhere from imprisonment to capital punishment, which could mean that we can kill you if we want to.” That’s all they said. So I was jailed for the three months, but then I was released. After the release, I virtually became homeless because I couldn’t go back to where I used to live, because then the local authority would be very hard on me, so I joined a group that made another attempt—make a big attempt to escape, but this one is actually more organized and have more money to buy a better boat. And during 1979, especially after my failed attempt, there was this big push by the Vietnamese authority for the Chinese to get out of Vietnam, because they had some dispute with China. And so what they were trying to do was they organized actually a legal deportation, in a way, but they allowed a lot of ethnic Chinese, you know, Vietnamese of Chinese descent, to leave legally on those boats, as long as they pay. So we were—I was one of those who got on one of these boats, but registered, we paid all the money we have, but never get to leave, because that whole thing only lasted for, like, two years or so and then they cancelled everything. So I didn’t ever get to leave. I continued to live on that little boat anyway, because I have no home, and then from that point I make, you know, under the owner of the boat’s organization—they’re trying to help a lot of people to get out on a little boat instead of his big one—and so I try another three attempts, and out of the three attempts, one failed, but I was able to get away and not be arrested. The other two I got arrested again, so I was put in jail for another two times over a period of about five or six months, two different jails. arrest;boat;Chinese;escape;ethnic Chinese;jail;legal deportation;Vietnamese of CHinese descent 543 Successful Escape from Vietnam-November 1982 NGUYEN: And so anyway, the last time that I made the trip that was successful is November of 2018—I’m sorry, of 1992 [Brody note: meant to say “1982”], November, and that was more well-organized by the owner of that big ship (unintelligible), and we actually bought—he actually bought a fishing boat and took some of us, mostly just guys, to go out there and work as fishermen in a little town on the coastline of South Vietnam. And then one day, and I remember it was November—I think it’s October thirtieth—it was very dark, it’s a dark night—October the thirtieth, thirty-first or so, of 1982, we all gather, families and friends, thirty-six altogether, we got on that boat and we sailed out as though we’re going fishing. And it was dark. At night when we chose to leave was very dark, you know, it’s not a full moon night or anything, it’s very dark, and that’s how we were able to escape successfully without being caught without anybody chasing after us. After three days and three nights on the high sea, we were aiming to go toward the Philippines, because this is in the southern part of Vietnam, but it’s more or less we get out of the boat with—there was a—there’s not a lot of equipment. There’s a compass, that’s the only thing, and so we’re just going to steer east, yes, but it’s sort of a—it’s going south as well, somehow we were drifting south. And then on the night of November—about three nights or so after we left, we were spotted by a French vessel. BRODY: Spotted by the French— NGUYEN: Yeah, yeah, it’s called the Le Goelo. And Le Goelo is—and I think it was a miracle, because Le Goelo was a ship that was chartered by a group of French doctors, who during the early eighties and the late seventies, because of the boat peoples’ situation, they wanted to go out on the south Asian—yeah, South Asian Sea to pick up and rescue refugees. And this was a miracle because it was very dark, 8 p.m. at night, they—we were near something that we thought it may be an island or what, but we didn’t know what it was. I think we almost ran out of fuel. There was some trouble with the engine, and all of a sudden we hear some loud noise, an approaching ship, and then they ran very fast and somebody from up there on that ship asked us to stop. We were scared, we thought it just might be just the Vietnamese communists’ boat or maybe Russian, very friendly to them, maybe they just found us and tow us back or what. But anyway, that was a miraculous night because as soon as we stopped, they shined lights on our boat and somebody on that boat spoke English. And the question they asked us was, “Does anyone on this boat speak English?” So I immediately ran up to the upper deck and I said, “Yes, I do.” Then the second question was—and I will never forget this—the question was, “Are you good people?” Because I think the question was asked because they didn’t know if we were actually refugees, fishermen, or even pirates. You know? It’s very hard to tell, it was (unintelligible) of dark and all that. BRODY: Right. They wanted to know, too. NGUYEN: Fortunately, we actually have children and women. So everybody go up, and I said, “Yes, we are. We are refugees, we’re trying to escape Vietnam.” And this is the word that I remember and I tell a lot of people when I was doing talking about that day, I said this is the word I hear from the captain. He said, “Then come on board.” And they immediately operated a rescue mission, a rescue task—and just unforgettable. They put a big net over to us, to our boat, and then some of their sailors went out, they started carrying the women, children. And they said, “Any belongings, anyone wanting to come, just go.” And so we all, men, just climbed up there on the net, and they took it over, everything. After everything was done, they said, “Well, come over here, take a last look at your boat, because by law, we have to sink it.” BRODY: Oh boy. NGUYEN: Yes. Because if there’s a floating boat on the sea they—you know, international law or something about they have to—if they see something like that, people have to find out what’s going on there. So now that they already rescued the people, so they’ve got to sink that boat. So they sunk the boat, and we saw it slowly— boat people;Communists;compass;English;escape;fishing boat;French doctors;Le Goelo;miracle;Phillippines;pirates;refugees;rescue;South Asia Sea 925 Reflections on watching fishing boat sink/Reflections on being rescued NGUYEN: Yes. Because if there’s a floating boat on the sea they—you know, international law or something about they have to—if they see something like that, people have to find out what’s going on there. So now that they already rescued the people, so they’ve got to sink that boat. So they sunk the boat, and we saw it slowly— BRODY: How did you feel as you were watching that sinking? NGUYEN: Yeah, it’s a mixed emotion because, you know, that boat is the ticket, is the ticket for us to get to freedom, and now we are leaving something that’s so dear to us. Although, you know, we had some very rough days on the boat, because, you know, without water and food and a lot of people get sick, but really, without that boat, we’d never see freedom. We’d never seen a better day. Anyway, they got us. We found out that this boat was on the last mission—last day of the mission because they’re returning back to their port of origin, which is Singapore. BRODY: So you were probably one of their last groups of people that they rescued. NGUYEN: Yes. Actually, when we were rescued we went up there and I found out the crew of that boat, the ship, was international. Most of them were from France, from Germany, and some of them, like, Swedens, and you know, all of these are part of the Doctors of the World’s association or group. And they told us, “You know, we have rescued a lot of people, and what we do after we rescue the refugees, we would bring them to Palawan in the Philippines where there’s Vietnamese refugees there. However, we actually were just from there, we’re on our way back because we’re out of fuel and this is our –we’ve been doing it for a month already on the high sea and we’re on our way back home. We’re turning back. But as soon as we saw you guys, we cannot just neglect—we cannot just let go. We had to stop, because this is our mission. So what happens is we will have to take every one of you going back—going to Singapore, and then we will refuel and then we will ask the French government to accept everybody here for resettlement in France,” because there was an agreement about the country then was that any ship from any country that got these boat people and rescued them, the government of that country will resettle them. So that’s kind of the rule. BRODY: That was the rule. boat;escape;freedom;hunger;international law;sickness;SIngapore;sinking 1098 Arrival in the Philippines NGUYEN: So from living in hell, we’re now living in paradise, because these boats are designed to have at least two hundred to three hundred people; it only has thirty-six. And so we were treated to some very good cuisine, very nice food, and have a place to sleep, but more important than anything, we breathe freedom. We know we got it, you know what I mean? We no longer have to fear about the communists, we no longer have to worry about being chased after, being spied on, or lack of food and all kinds of things. So that’s the greatest feeling ever. When we got to Singapore, we were not allowed in there, because we are stateless. We having nothing of worth, of anything, no document or what. They radioed to the French government and the French government says, “Yeah, we’ll accept all of these to resettle in France.” Then they refuel and then sail back to the Philippines. So we spent another ten days— BRODY: On the sea? NGUYEN: —on the sea. And this time it’s a cruising ship. It’s not an escape boat. This is a cruising ship. It’s unbelievable. So we’re up on the deck. We’ll see beautiful landscape and sky and see all kinds of places. We got to the Philippines, and I believe it was November sixth when we got there—no, I think—yeah, November sixth or November tenth, probably November tenth, I remember, of ’82, and so all thirty-six of us, safe and sound, men and women and children, and we were there. Welcomed by the committees of Vietnamese refugees of Palawan, and we are immediately assigned someplace to stay, to sleep and eat and then start a new life as a refugee there for a few months. Now you might wonder, well, if the French government agreed to resettle everybody, why are we—you know, get a chance to go to America instead of going to France? Well, during my college year, I actually worked for the US government as well as a Vietnamese instructor to the American advisors, because many of the advisors to the Vietnam war during those days, they wanted to learn Vietnamese so that they could talk to people, and so being an English major, I was able to work part time and teach them—taught them Vietnamese. There was a curriculum that was designed by the state department so it’s not just like whatever as a teach—but based on a curriculum language institute. It was called Armed Forces Language Institute curriculum. So anyway, because of that background—and it was verified during my interview for resettlement with the US delegation at the refugee camp—that they were able to verify that I had worked for the US government agency overseas in Vietnam. So in a way, I was foreign employee of the US government. And with that status, it will take precedent over any country resettlement— BRODY: The French. NGUYEN: French, yeah. And so that’s how I and my brother—actually, two of us, me and my brother, escaped together—were able to go to America. BRODY: Okay. And everyone else went to France? NGUYEN: Yeah. The rest went to France, and—actually, a few of them—a few actually went to Australia. Australia, you know, because they had some brotherly connections, so they can go to Australia. But the two of us—and maybe there’s another family I remember, because the wife in that family was also an employee with the US government as well, so there’s like two families went to America, a total of about eight people or so. The rest, about thirty-six, went to France, with a few going to Australia, yeah. America;Australia;English;food;France;freedom;French government;language;Palawan;resettlement;resettlement in America;Singapore;teaching English;U.S. government 1384 Sponsorship in the US/Living in Wisconsin and North Dakota BRODY: So did you come first to Texas, or you were sent somewhere else in the United States? NGUYEN: I went to—first when I got to the United States I would resettle and came to a family of the sponsor in Wisconsin, in a little town called Ashland, Wisconsin. There was some connection there, because in 1996—I’m sorry, 1967—long time ago—I was a foreign exchange student from Vietnam, and I was like eleventh grade. So I got to come and live with that family in Wisconsin and went to school for one year and then came back. BRODY: So that same family sponsored you? NGUYEN: Yeah. BRODY: So you were in the Philippines, had been accepted to come resettle in the United States. NGUYEN: Right. BRODY: And did you make contact with them? NGUYEN: Yeah, as soon as I got there I made the contact with them, and they were very excited and happy to find out that I had got out safely and they were willing to sign the paperwork to sponsor me in Wisconsin, yeah. BRODY: Did they sponsor your brother also? NGUYEN: Yeah. The two of us went to Wisconsin. We stayed there for about three months. I found a job working in North Dakota for a factory in a little town called Wahpeton for like a year or so. The owner of that company had sponsored a lot of refugees from all kinds of places, working for his company, making canvas. BRODY: Canvas. NGUYEN: Yeah, canvas. You know, I just worked for a short time, for a year or so, and then I found this job working for Lutheran Social Services of North Dakota in Fargo—that was in 1984—as a bilingual case worker, because there’s a lot of unaccompanied minors from Vietnam who escape and who are placed through Lutheran Immigration Services with foster homes. And North Dakota has the program, resettle all those minors, and they need a bilingual worker who can communicate with the kids and the family, you know? So that’s why I found— Ashland;canvas;case worker;employment;Fargp;foreign exchange;foster care;foster homes;Lutheran Immigration Services of North Dakota;minors;North Dakota;refugees;resettlement;sponsorship;Wisconisn 1557 Attending and working for University of Minnesota/Becoming a naturalized US citizen NGUYEN: Yeah. So I worked there for like, two years until ’86. And then my brother, during the meantime, decided that he wanted to go back to school. He was in the pharmacy school back in Vietnam when he escaped with me, but he hasn’t finished that. So he decided to go back to school, but not in pharmacy, but engineer—electrical engineering at University of Minnesota. So he got there, like—he went there in 1985 already. 1986, after two years of working I decided that, well, you know, I really liked this field even though it’s not what my prior education is all about. But I really liked, you know, social service and being a social worker, that kind of thing. So I also decided to go back to school and apply to graduate school at the University of Minnesota for my master’s in social work. Got in, graduated in two years or so. But during those two years I stayed connected with refugee programs everywhere. As a matter of fact, I was trained by—when I was a bilingual worker I was trained by a group in Colorado called the Spring Institute for International Studies. And the Spring Institute during those days, what they do is they provide a lot of cross-cultural mental health training for bilingual case workers and so forth. So I happened to attend two of their sessions, and I discovered that this is something I like to do, and they kind of liked—and really like what they see in me in terms of potential. So after I graduate from University of Minnesota, they invited me to be back to become one of their consultants. BRODY: Oh, wow. NGUYEN: So actually, I worked as a consultant for them, meaning I went back and did a lot of training for them. So I have done a lot of cross-cultural training in, you know, for case workers with them, traveled to several states and do a lot of those things. But after I graduated officially, you know, I worked for the county of Hennepin in Minnesota for, like, a year, over a year or so as a social worker. And it was ’86—actually, no, ’87 is when I—no, I’m sorry. I joined the school in ’86, graduated in ’88. In between—actually, when I graduated was on the same time I became a US citizen, which was like five years after my arrival. Arrival, ’83—so ’88 would be five years—applied, and became a US citizen. At the same time, I worked for the county of Hennepin County, so we celebrated the naturalization at the county. It was a great time, you know, everybody just loved that and celebrated with me. Then I traveled to Texas just to meet my—because my brother, after he graduated from the University of Minnesota as an engineer, he moved to Texas, got married, and he worked for GD, General Dynamics in Fort Worth. So I was the only one left there. So I decided, you know, to quit my job and move to Texas as well. But before that, I was introduced to my then fiancée, who is now my wife, who was also a refugee herself, and she was working for a refugee employment program in Dallas. And that was the year of 1989, the end of 1989, early ’90 when I moved to Dallas, Texas. BRODY: So that’s how you got to Dallas. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yeah, it’s quite a change. BRODY: Yes, I’m sure from both Vietnam and from Minnesota, and North Dakota. NGUYEN: Exactly, yeah. citizenship;cross-cultural training;graduate school;Hennepin;mental health;refugees;social work;Spring Institute for International Studies;training;University of Minnesota 1830 Impressions of Texas/Early Work with Rusk State Hospital BRODY: Well, what was Dallas like when you first came here? What do you remember about those times? NGUYEN: Yeah, you know, Dallas at that—during those—1989, early ’90 or so, there was a lot of refugees at that time. For every kid coming, especially south Asians; Laos, Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Dallas was known to me—or Texas as a whole—as a southern state and there was discrimination the way that I was told and learned about. Because when I left Minnesota, which was known as very liberal, very friendly, very welcoming, I was told by somebody who used to be from Texas, who worked in Minnesota, she told me, “Why Texas?” (Brody laughs) You know? And she said, “Did you know that they speak with the Southern drawl there?” And secondly, “You know that people are not that friendly there,” you know? And I said, “Well, I don’t know if I have a choice. I’m alone now, my fiancée lives there, you know, and she has here entire family here, so it’s logical that I move there than she move north. So I will go and I’ll take the chance on all this thing.” But you know, back to your question, when I came to Dallas, I was surprised that it has already been very international, the city itself. And that I haven’t heard that Southern drawl a lot, and that there are a lot of friendly people, and that there’s huge refugee communities here as opposed to the one that I left in Minnesota, and there’s a lot of opportunity and school and all of that that opened up to me. As a matter of fact, when I first moved to Texas, I actually didn’t go directly to Dallas, because I had to find a job first before I moved. The first job that got me to Texas was in Palestine. So when I moved in the early—no, actually the end of 1989, in December—no, actually October—I found a job with a Texas state—a state hospital in Rusk. It’s called Rusk State Hospital, which is part of Texas Department of Health and the Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation, TDMHMR. That’s the name. And so I work for the state hospital as a social worker, lived in Palestine, rented an apartment there. So that’s the foot in the door to Texas. And as a matter of fact, there is when I witnessed discrimination and Southern drawl. So many of the people in east Texas, you know, speak with the accent that nobody that I have heard in Dallas would have spoken. But fortunately, my fiancée and her parents live in Dallas, so I just make that commute every weekend, come back and forth, you know. But then I was able to locate a position opening at Dallas Multicultural Community Center, which helped refugees, you know, with all kinds of services: employment, social services, mental health counseling (unintelligible). So I got that first job as a mental health— counseling;Dallas;Dallas Multicultural Community Center;discrimination;employment;jobs;mental health;Minnesota;Palestine, Texas;refugees;Rusk State Hospital;Southern drawl;TDMHMR;Texas;Texas Department of Health and the Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation 2078 Working with the Multicultural Community Center and Dallas Challenge/Creation of East Dallas Counseling Center BRODY: Was that down in East Dallas? NGUYEN: No. Yeah, I mean, East Dallas, yeah, the center used to be on Munger. Yeah, it’s Munger—it’s called Munger Place. So yeah, I was there, I worked there for—interesting—for about six months—maybe less, even less. Then the organization in Dallas here, a nonprofit with the name called Dallas Challenge. They’re a nonprofit that works with youth doing substance abuse education prevention. They wanted to set up a program in East Dallas to provide substance abuse education prevention kind of thing for the Asian youth. And so they actually found me while I was working for the Multicultural Community Center, so I— BRODY: So they found you. So that sounds like there was a need in Dallas at that point. So by the mideighties, there was enough of a refugee population here and a young refugee population that there was a need for a special substance abuse and mental health. And so how did they find you? NGUYEN: Well you know, I was working at the Multicultural Community Center, and one day there was a guy, and he worked for that Dallas Challenge. And he was a social worker, Hispanic. He came to the center and looked around and then he met me, and he said, “Hey,” introduced himself and said, look, he’s looking for maybe an Asian person, you know, with a degree, maybe a social work degree or a counseling degree that can manage a new program they are going to establish here in Dallas. So after he left, you know, and he gave me his business card, I called back and said, “I want to tell you that I am the one you’re looking for.” BRODY: That’s amazing. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he said, “Is that true?” “Yeah.” And so I told him, you know, my background, my education, all that, then he said, “Great. Do you want to apply for this?” I said sure, and so I applied for the position. They interviewed me and then they offered me the position. And I found out that the idea for them is to find someone, they will train the person for three years, and then they will let the person—they will spin off that particular branch that they establish to become its own entity, which was perfect, because my—I just loved to be able to develop, create an agency, something like that, and now this is an opportunity to work for someone else, maybe in a field that’s not necessarily very prevalent in terms of substance abuse within the Asian population; however, this is a stepping stone, a beginning where—nowhere that you can get this, you know? So after three years or so, I got all the training that I needed to manage and know what an operation is like, and I formed a board and all of that. Then they official spin me off in ’93, in the fall of ’93. BRODY: And did you get a new name for the organization? NGUYEN: Yeah—well, the name is still the same name as the organization under them, which was East Dallas Counseling Center. So I continued that name until 2003 when we changed to Mosaic Family Services, yeah. BRODY: Which is where you are now. NGUYEN: Right, right, yeah. Asian youth;Dallas;Dallas Challenge;East Dallas;East Dallas Counseling Center;education;mental health;mental health programs;Mosaic Family Services;Multicultural Community Center;Munger Place;nonprofits;refugee;refugee mental health;social work;substance abuse 2353 Memories of Little Asia BRODY: So with the East Dallas community—Counseling Center, sorry—that was located in— NUGYEN: In East Dallas, right in the—right on—let’s see, Bryan Street, where there’s what they call Little Asia. BRODY: Yes, Little Asia, that’s what I was going to ask you about. In Little Asia, can you share with me any of your memories of sort of what the energy was like, what that felt like during the time period that you were working there and when the East Dallas Counseling Center was getting established in that area? Because it was a vibrant area. NGUYEN: Community, yeah. See, a lot of newly arrived refugees lived right there when they first came. As a matter of fact, all of the resettlement agencies, like Catholic Charities and Refugee Services of Texas and International Rescue Committee, they—when they brought the sponsor of those refugees, they noticed most of them were southeast Asian, Vietnamese predominantly. They just occupied a lot of the apartment complexes around that little area. BRODY: The voluntary agencies have those apartments. NGUYEN: Right, around there. So it’s just like a village of—a Vietnamese village, a Lao village, a Cambodian village outside of Southeast Asia. BRODY: Right. Did you live there, also, in that area? NGUYEN: No. I—well, actually, I lived in East Ellisberg, I lived off of White Rock Lane. So it’s not too far from there, but it’s also East Dallas. BRODY: But you were there in Little Asia working all the time? NGUYEN: Right, right, yeah. BRODY: So, I mean, what did it sound like? Were you just hearing different languages on the street? How about the food? NGUYEN: Yeah. You know, the fun thing was there are a lot of people from different communities, but they all get along very well, they all are clustered around an area, and then they started small restaurants, like that Vietnam restaurant that still is very—it’s still operational now and doing very well. When I came, back in the early 1990, they were already there. They continue to thrive, and you know there’s a Laos restaurant across the street, there’s a Thai food as well, there’s a Cambodian shop—restaurant on—let’s see, on Carroll Street, which is just a block away. And then down the road towards uptown, not downtown, but toward—on Bryan, there are two restaurants. One is Vietnamese, called Mai, M-a-i, Mai’s Vietnamese Restaurant, and then there’s a restaurant that’s still now is functioning, it’s—I can’t remember the name, but they sort of half Chinese, half Vietnamese. They’re doing fine. And there are little grocery stores sprung up too. There’s one—and I think the exciting part was that the Dallas Police Department started hiring the Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian police officers, and there’s a group that they—because they found out that the best model of policing is to hire civilians who work for the police department, but become an outreach contact for the department, who go into communities and establish relationships with refugees who arrive there. Because historically, refugees don’t like police because, you know, in their own country, police are not their friend, not protecting them, they’re protecting the government or somebody else. The police is harassing them, you know, making their life—they’re more like not law enforcement, but they’re—you know, they’re harassing people, they make people’s life hard, they really persecute and all of that. So this model is working real well, because these are very friendly people, and they go into the community and see what people need, and that’s how to prevent crime. Because they found out that, Oh wow, sometimes they bring rice and they welcome anybody who arrives here with a bag of rice and some fish sauce or something— apartments;Asian food;Bryan Street;Carroll Street;Catholic Charities;East Dallas;East Dallas Counseling Center;food;grocery stores;housing;International Rescue Committee;Little Asia;Mai Vietnamese Restaurant;Refugee Services of Texas;refugees;resettlement agencies;restaurants;sponsors;Vietnam restaurant;voluntary agencies 2593 Dallas Police Department community outreach in Little Asia/Experience with Dallas Police Department NGUYEN:...I think the exciting part was that the Dallas Police Department started hiring the Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian police officers, and there’s a group that they—because they found out that the best model of policing is to hire civilians who work for the police department, but become an outreach contact for the department, who go into communities and establish relationships with refugees who arrive there. Because historically, refugees don’t like police because, you know, in their own country, police are not their friend, not protecting them, they’re protecting the government or somebody else. The police is harassing them, you know, making their life—they’re more like not law enforcement, but they’re—you know, they’re harassing people, they make people’s life hard, they really persecute and all of that. So this model is working real well, because these are very friendly people, and they go into the community and see what people need, and that’s how to prevent crime. Because they found out that, Oh wow, sometimes they bring rice and they welcome anybody who arrives here with a bag of rice and some fish sauce or something— BRODY: The police? NGUYEN: Yes. They do that in conjunction with the resettlement and community center, but it works really well. And so—and I think they continued that model until very recently when refugees were no longer needed or live here, because after a few years, East Dallas, Little Asia was not so much Little Asia anymore because—there are still some restaurants, but the inhabitants and the residents of that community have moved out; moved out to the suburbs, moved out to other towns, after they have found jobs they have been able to (intercom noise sounds)—oh God (unintelligible). pause in recording BRODY: All right. Go ahead, carry on. NGUYEN: Okay, yeah. So I think again, that model worked really well and very friendly. So yeah, being there right in the middle of Little Asia, eating the food that I’m familiar with, parking, working with the folks that share my experience was very inspiring. BRODY: Yeah, and also probably—it sounds like made you feel more at home— NGUYEN: Exactly. BRODY: —and more a part of a community. I’d imagine that being a refugee or even moving from North Dakota, you could possibly feel isolated, but coming into a vibrant, welcoming community like that sounds like it’s (unintelligible) good. attitudes toward police;community;community outreach;crime prevention;Dallas Police Department;language;police;refugees;resetllement;rice 2787 Family Violence and Mental Health Programs/Police Storefronts and Community Outreach I’m glad you brought up the police, because the Dallas Police Department and the city of Dallas—I wonder if you have, you know, in the work that you did, if you had a lot of contact with the city or with the police department in working in the mental health area for refugees. NGUYEN: The mental health is not necessarily where the contact with the police department as much as later on when we created the Family Violence component or program, because a lot of victims or survivors were brought to us by the police department, or we worked closely with them so that we can inform them of what the needs are. And we also provide translation and interpretation. So that’s how we were, we’re constantly in contact and, you know, in our work with the police department. The mental health part which—it’s not so much the police that we make contact with or partnered with. It’s the community itself, especially community leaders and groups, or sometimes individuals who have received some help and feel that it’s benefit them to spread the word. That’s how we were able to reach out to a lot of people and do some education through outreach about what mental health is. “You can get help, and this is how, where, and you can get it.” In the early days, our mental health counseling program was very small, and we did mostly just a lot of case management and outreach because the funding is not there. Most of the funding from government that we receive, goes through providing case management, access to services for physical health and mental health for any refugee group. But later on, we found out that through Family Violence, we were able to access more funding and we were able to—yeah, it doesn’t have to be just refugees, it could be any other marginalized groups, immigrants as a whole that are survivors. So we primarily still target refugees, although the refugee population has changed over time. For example, after several years, we started seeing a lot of Bosnian, you know? And we see that, and so I hire Bosnian case workers and then later on you have, you know, during the same time, at that time we have the Kurdish refugees as well. So the police department is always very friendly. And, by the way, through the Little Asia community, the police department had created the storefront, the police storefronts. Yeah, which for many years were right across the street from us on Peak. And that was an excellent concept as well, because it’s more accessible. They don’t have to go—people have to go right downtown, and people are more scared of that, and they have civilian officers as well who work for the police department, who speak all of these languages, so, you know—and so people can access the police department just like a social service, and I think that model really worked out well. Bosnians;case management;City of Dallas;civiloian officers;community outreach;counseling;Dallas Police Department;domestic violence;Family Violence;immigrants;Kurds;mental health;outreach;Peak Street;police;police storefronts;refugees;translation;victims 3058 Observations on the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: Yeah, it really worked, especially for the community in Little Asia. That model seems like it led to such great success that, you know, as you said, many people moved out of Little Asia because they moved to the suburbs or whatever it was. What is your observation of the Vietnamese community from—I know you got here in the eighties, but, you know, as they grew from 1975 till the present, and what is—in your experience or your observation, what is the story of the Vietnamese community in north Texas? NGUYEN: It’s almost the same story everywhere you go. Earlier today on the way back here from lunch, I heard over NPR a refugee from Vietnam who came here when he was four years old, talked about some of the issues with immigration and refugees and so forth. And he completely reminded me of what I have seen over the years, what happened with the Vietnamese refugees everywhere we go. And that is—the story is almost similar, regardless—and you probably have known this—the refugees from Vietnam came in three different waves primarily. You have the “boat people” and the early evacuees after ’75, and then you have the Amerasians, you know, they’re Amerasian. And then you have the former political prisoners. So they are a different group, came because of a different reason, you know, but they all came to America at different times, always started out pretty rough in terms of very little resources they have when they came, but they only—they go through some gradual adjustment period. For some who have good education, they could adjust within a year or two years, some it’s longer. But it’s all about rebuilding their life and provide for their kids, opportunity to obtain a good education, and eventually these young kids are the ones that will make the dream come true for everyone. And their story has always been just like that. And they are very successful as businessmen, in all kinds of professions. Of course, some of the traditional values they bring with them such as, you know, strong family values and emphasis on education, they may have certain bias regarding which profession that you need to pursue that creates some pressure for younger people. And for me and my wife, and we were just like all these parents nowadays. Our kids were born here, so they grew up with different sets of values as compared to what their parents’ values were, but there’s got to be some compromise. But like that story was told earlier when I heard that the refugees, the Vietnamese refugees, has never been an issue, even though they came over a stretch of many years, especially ever since 1975, there’s a lot of opposition for welcoming the early wave of refugees from Vietnam after the end of the war, but like the man said, they are an invisible group of people. Nobody talks about them at all until they become a problem. Then they become so visible, just like nowadays with the border crossers and refugees that—with immigrants and people who cross the border, immigration becomes a huge problem and then refugees (unintelligible) it’s a difficult topic as well. So the stories of the Vietnamese refugees was said to be kind of invisible. It has never been visible, really. If it is visible, it’s all about success, it’s about oh, some, you know, unusual contribution and all of that. And fortunately it has not a story of troublemaking or for negative press coverage or anything like that. You know, occasionally they talk about like a gang group here and there, but the majority of the Vietnamese refugees have contributed so much to America and make their lives much better than where they came from and contribute so much to making America more diverse. They give back so much and make our country stronger. So I see—that’s really the kind of story I’ve seen in every group. adjustment;Amerasians;assimilation;boat people;contributions;diversity;gangs;identity;immigrants;integration;poltical prisoners;refugees;suburbs;success 3474 Amerasian children NGUYEN: You know, if I say that, you probably won’t be surprised. When I and my wife got married here in the—actually in 1990, that was a time when a lot of Amerasians arrived. And you’ve heard of Amerasians, right? We have adopted a few—not adopted in terms of legal adoption or anything, but for example, there are several Amerasian children—well, they’re sort of teens, and then when they came with their mother and their mother got so ill and passed away, before she passed away she said, you know, “Could I entrust you to take care of my children?” And we said, “Sure.” So we continue to help and watch after those kids. Now, none of those kids had any education. BRODY: They just came recently? NGUYEN: Yeah, yeah—no, no, these were back in the nineties. BRODY: In the nineties, okay. NGUYEN: The Amerasians was the second group of refugees that arrived. Like I said, three waves. The first wave, the “boat people,” that was my wave. And then you have Amerasian is the second wave, and then you have the political prisoners—former prisoners—the third wave. Which—Amerasians and former political prisoners came very close to each other, anywhere between around ’88 to around 1998, so about ten years or so of that. They—those children, no education, because that’s the reality of what they suffered back in the Vietnam. You know, very poor, were not accepted, they completely were discarded by society and considered by what people called “dust of life.” That’s the word they called these Amerasian children, “dust of life.” They considered them just like dirt. That’s really what it is. Anyway, when we sponsored these kids, you know, in a way like we say, “Okay, we’ll take care of you guys, come and visit us and if you need anything we’ll take care of them.” And I remember during the early years, I have bailed some of these guys out of jail a couple times because, you know, they didn’t know anything about law, so we start helping them, then—tell you what happened twenty-some years later. The children have grown up. They went to Ivy League schools, they graduated from UT–Austin. Some doctors, some joined even the US Army, some are engineers, and look at where they came from. BRODY: Yeah, those are some great success stories. NGUYEN: Yeah. And it’s not unusual either, because I’ve seen a rampant number of these families, always the same. I haven’t seen any of these children from the Amerasian group who have not been successful. You know, maybe some more dramatic than some others, but none of them that I’ve seen have become homeless or the children not going to school or doing something productive and contributing back. So regardless of the background, it’s just—what America gives them, the opportunity, they seize on it and make something—and make a great story for themselves. BRODY: It’s a great story for everyone, yes. NGUYEN: Yeah, exactly, yeah. Amerasian;Amerasians;boat people;dust of life;education;Ivy League;opportunity;political prisoners;poverty;sponsor;success;US Army;UT-Austin 3704 American identity/Attitudes about Vietnam today BRODY: That brings me to another area that we haven’t talked about yet, and that’s the question of becoming American and being American, or the idea of identity. Can you tell me a little bit about your thoughts, having been in not just two different countries but, you know, different parts of this country? What does it mean to you to say that you’re American, or to say that someone’s American? NGUYEN: I think just for my situation, half of my lifetime—actually, over half of my lifetime now, I’ve lived here. Less than half of my lifetime was back there, and so—but I was born there, and have spent many years there of my early years there. It’s very hard to forget that root, it’s very hard to forget that language and that connection to, you know, to the Vietnamese heritage. So for me, becoming American (cell phone rings)—let me see, I need to—how do I turn it off, here—becoming American is a necessary process to be successful because in this community, in the larger society, to gain a career, to have a place in this community, you have to be—you have to get a good education, that’s almost a sin qua non, you know, it’s a necessary thing. But you have to adopt certain values that are functioning that would keep you or put you in the same consideration when you go out there and compete for a job or to gain an opportunity for a new career or life in America. So that—if I go to work, I am only American. You know, that’s supposed to be that way, because what I do, the language that I use every day, the people I work with, you know, and the partners and the community, everything else and not just local, nationally and internationally too, it’s that American identity seems to take over. I would say a small part of that identity, more or less sort of invisible or hidden, is still there as a Vietnamese when I come home, when I celebrate certain traditional festivals or what, and because of that root that I said is there. You cannot just chop it off and say you don’t know anything about it. It’s still there. So I would say to be successful, you would adopt the identity and become part of the American identity, but you don’t necessarily have to forget who you are and where you came from, because that—sometimes, especially if you were not born here, somehow it’s hard to say you a hundred percent belong in here, you know, even though that’s what your life has always been now. Still, there’s little space there. So I have concluded that—and even with the staff working here, I’ve seen successful people are the ones who are able to navigate successful in both cultures without favoring one to another, and so adoption of an identity as an American doesn’t necessarily negate where you came from. As a matter of fact, with what happened in the country of origin in our day was very troublesome, because we—you know, and I don’t know if you have been aware of, because what recently have been happening back in Vietnam was that there is a lot of—the government itself has tried to become close to China, and recently they proposed certain laws where they would lease the land for ninety-nine years to communist China, and so there’s a lot of resistance from the people because if this is what they do, they’d basically be selling the country. Sold out. Sell it to China. And so what we are scared the most right now, and not just—well, the identity of whether you’re American and Vietnamese or not, we may not even have that Vietnamese identity any longer. BRODY: Right, so that’s troubling. NGUYEN: Yeah, it’s very troubling. And so many people who demonstrated and went out there were arrested now, and they basically—you know, the communists, they enforced the law, the way they interpret is very strongly, they will not allow any peaceful demonstrations, they arrest so many dissidents, so many who just express that, you know, we don’t want this to happen. They arrest a lot of people and putting in jail, but I think—and Vietnam nowadays already have seen so many Chinese businesses—actually, as a matter of fact, something really sad is that Chinese actually can go to Vietnam without a visa. And yet, Vietnamese who go to China, you have to apply for a visa. So they have free access to our country, but not the other way around. And the problem is the authority there, they’re communist, they owe so much to the Chinese during the war time, whatever that was. It seems like the way they would return the debt was by selling our land. And so yeah, that’s been more troublesome now than anything. So to us now, you know, I mean, when we talk about identity, I think definitely the American identity is almost there, it’s just always there, but the troublesome part is we may lose our root. alienation;American identity;assimilation;becoming American;belonging;career;China;Communism;communists;connection;culture;education;heritage;integration;language;roots;success;tradition;values;Vietnamese identity;Vietnamese politics 4208 Parenting and culture BRODY: On the question of identity, I was also interested, since you mentioned your kids were born here, you know, the pattern of first generation, second generation—what has your family story been in terms of having, you know, a set of kids who are born in the United States and have only lived here, but also trying to maintain connection to the culture of the family? How have you and your wife navigated it, how do your kids feel, and what do you see going forward in terms of the growth of that? NGUYEN: Right. You know, I consider our situation with our children somewhat fortunate, and that was—we acculturated as parents very quickly. We also obtained an education here as well. So we understand what it means to be born here and growing up here. So for our children, we taught them what our roots are, what the values are, and sometimes they actually watch how we interact with our old community and now our extended family, so they can see that. Our children grew up, and one thing we insisted, especially my wife, was for them to learn Vietnamese. Both of them were enrolled in Vietnamese school when they were young because we weren’t too worried about them not learning English, they were born here, but we worried about them not learning Vietnamese. BRODY: Right. And was it easy to find Vietnamese classes, Vietnamese school? NGUYEN: Yeah. Mostly it’s offered through churches and temples. BRODY: The churches, yeah. NGUYEN: You know, thirty-some years later, almost turning—no, maybe fifteen years or so later after they graduated from college, all of that, the oldest one—we have two—the oldest one retained his Vietnamese and is very good at it. And actually, he made—that really helped him with landing a job, as well as being promoted, because he offered better competitively—because he worked for the bank industry, banking industry—that he is a bilingual in Vietnamese. In the market where there’s a lot of Vietnamese customers, for example, he became— BRODY: So he’s a real asset. NGUYEN: Yeah, he’s an asset. So, you know, they—and we encouraged them to continue to participate in traditional events and festivals, and there are a few of those throughout the years. So they grew up appreciating where their roots are, but definitely their identity is American, and they keep telling us that, (Brody laughs) you know? But we haven’t had any conflict at all, and we do allow—and we do understand if they behave in a certain way, unless it’s an extreme behavior that’s not highly regarded, then we may correct them, but they—and they understand us too, but I think the fortunate part was that we also acculturated to this culture fast, and we also obtained the education like they were obtaining, even though we are much older when we had this education here, and so we understand. I think the struggle with intergenerational conflict occurs more with families where there is disparity between—within the education of the parents and the kids and especially, you know, you probably have heard so many of the stories when this kid goes to school and they communicate entirely in English, and the school tries to communicate with the family, and the families say, “Oh my God, our kid is in trouble” or what, because in Vietnam, the school only communicates if the kid’s in trouble, it’s not about discussing or talking about a PTA meeting or about a grade report, anything, you know? That’s what happened in the early days when I was at the East Dallas Counseling Center. There’s a lot of cases of child abuses being reported because parents didn’t know how to control this kid. acculturation;American identity;banking;children;churches;community;conflict;culture;education;English;extended family;festivals;intergenerational conflict;language;parenting;roots;temples;tradition;values;Vietnamese language;Vietnamese school 4453 Intergenerational conflict and misunderstanding in the Vietnamese community NGUYEN: I think the struggle with intergenerational conflict occurs more with families where there is disparity between—within the education of the parents and the kids and especially, you know, you probably have heard so many of the stories when this kid goes to school and they communicate entirely in English, and the school tries to communicate with the family, and the families say, “Oh my God, our kid is in trouble” or what, because in Vietnam, the school only communicates if the kid’s in trouble, it’s not about discussing or talking about a PTA meeting or about a grade report, anything, you know? That’s what happened in the early days when I was at the East Dallas Counseling Center. There’s a lot of cases of child abuses being reported because parents didn’t know how to control this kid. BRODY: So that’s where the lack of communication—so you observed that in your work, that this was happening. So could you share, like, just generally what some of those cases looked like? NGUYEN: Yeah. There was a case back then when I was at the East Dallas Counseling Center early in the year, probably around ’91—yeah, 1991. There was a young kid, Vietnamese, male, who attended North Dallas High School. And his—I think his—it’s a single parent, the mother, Vietnamese, who didn’t speak English that much, nor had an education higher than maybe high school, even less. He went to school one day and the counselor and the teacher, the ESL teacher actually is the one that discovered that he had some bruises around his legs, and he was like—I think he was like tenth grade. So they immediately report him to the vice principal, and the vice principal interviewed him and said, “What happened?” And he said, “Well, my mom shackled me, chained me to the bed.” So of course he didn’t say why, because that “why” really matters, he just—nobody asked why. They just saw that and they immediately reported it to Child Protective Services and all of that. So they invited the mother for an interview, and then they called us. One of our case managers goes into school and finds out what’s going on. And so we had a chance to talk to the mother, and then this is what she told us. She said that—we were told that he skipped school a lot, but then the school said, well, you know if the kid skips school, the parent is responsible. You know, I mean the thing about truancy, you know—they have truancy court, if the kid is skipping school so many times, the parent could be fined or arrested. BRODY: So she was scared. NGUYEN: Yeah, she was scared. So she said that “In order for me to control and make sure that he would go to school the next day, because he typically would leave the house at night and having fun or going somewhere, he isn’t going to return home or he sleeps somewhere I didn’t know, I had to chain him against the bed so that the next day I make sure that he’s there to go to school. I don’t know that this is against the law.” BRODY: I see. NGUYEN: You see that? So that experience can make some parents really powerless and helpless because they really meant well, but they don’t know what else to do. Really, they don’t know. You know, how else are they going to keep this kid at home? BRODY: Right. And they can’t communicate directly. NGUYEN: Yeah. So that’s one story that I remember that just demonstrated that intergenerational communication conflict and, you know, not just between parents and children, but school as well because, see, the parent really didn’t know and don’t know what to do because they don’t understand why this law makes them responsible. In our country, when they send the kid to school, the kid is the parents’ substitute. I mean, the teacher is the parents’ substitute. We entrust the kid to your hands. You take care of them, don’t bother us. BRODY: So the parent is out of the picture. NGUYEN: Yes, yeah. So that’s where they’re coming from. So that’s why when the school communicates, “Oh my God, he might be in trouble, doing something bad.” BRODY: So how did the case turn out? NGUYEN: I think it turned out that we were able to intervene and explain to the Child Protective Services as well as the school, you know, what she did, she didn’t know that this is against the law, but she did this because she didn’t know what else to do in order to keep the kid at home. So we were willing to provide some education sessions to the mother and as well as to do some prevention counseling with the kid as well, and so I think they dismissed the case because they know that this is not intentionally. case managers;child abuse;Child Protective Service;communication;culture;East Dallas Counseling Center;English;ESL;intergenerational conflict;language;miscommunication;North Dallas High School;parenting;parents;schools;social work;truancy 4836 Reflections on social class and refugees Clearly, you were very educated already at the point that you were a refugee and came to the United States, and then you continued to do work that was in line with your level of education. Have you had any experiences with social class issues—either your own or just people you know are in the community—of refugees who perhaps were of one social class when they NGUYEN: I—actually, I would say the opposite of that, and what I mean is this: the class system, social class system exists in our country, and if they were still in the country of origin, those refugee kids, the Amerasians, and so forth, would never be able even to talk to anyone of a different higher class, whether they were educated or they have social status or higher ranking officers, officials of the government or what. But when they came here, it’s so interesting that there’s a reversal of that order, because a lot of the high-ranking, higher class of people, when they came to America, actually they’re losing that status, mostly. BRODY: How interesting. NGUYEN: Yeah. Except for the children, definitely, because everyone has the same opportunities, so all those kids would get—they can get a Pell Grant as well as anyone. As a matter of fact, the poor can have a better chance of getting a Pell Grant than the rich one. So they can afford education, so they can look up—I mean, they don’t have to look up, they can be very assertive in any situation, they don’t have to worry about, you know, “Oh, she used to be a doctor, I’ve got to respect her,” or what. You know, all of that may not matter anymore. However, you know, like I said, the one who used to be in a higher social class and were losing those status because they’re old, they couldn’t get a job, or whatever that is, became probably more depressed because they’re losing their status. But here’s not much of that, of the inequality kind of thing that you’ve seen how people have been treated back in the country of origin, just because of their social status. Amerasians;class system;cultural differences;education;Pell Grant;poverty;social class;social mobility;social status;status 5049 Reflections on religion/Engagement with Buddhist temple in Garland, Texas BRODY: That’s really interesting. Also, another question that I wanted to go back to, you mentioned that your kids took classes, Vietnamese language classes and that the churches and temples sort of ran that. What role did religion play in your experience, either back in Vietnam or coming here and becoming part of the community here in Dallas? NGUYEN: As a matter of fact, when I—back in my country, the religious community is not much a part of our life, mainly because we’d—we were of a faith called “ancestor worship,” meaning we prayed to our ancestors, we have an altar in the family and we have a picture of the deceased grandparent, parent or what, and we commemorate their death anniversary, we teach our kids the value that they imparted on us from years, years ago. Morally, it’s kind of close to Buddhism than anything. When we came here, as a matter of fact, we became more active in the Buddhist temple, with the Buddhist temple, and that has happened because we were invited by one of the largest Buddhist temples in Garland. The monk there heard about me and he actually came from the same region that I was born and came from, and he asked for my help to figure out the nonprofit status for his temple. So I became his legal advisor even though that’s not my profession, (Brody laughs) but you know, I mean, if I created a nonprofit status for Mosaic, then I could figure it out the same way. So I actually was able to help him with that, and then he appointed me to become his advisor, and then so we attend more of their events at the temple, and then he also came and did blessings to our family on all kinds of occasions and so forth. So yeah, that became more of a faith and religious connection that we have and celebrate as well as honor anytime appropriate. When my parents—my father passed away, like, six years ago and my father-in-law also passed away a year after that, both of them were—the memorial services were done through the Buddhist temple, and the monk had run out to the funeral home and did all the blessings and ceremonies there and all of that. So yeah, we became supporters and close to those faiths. And I think it’s important, because how children grew up and see and start reading and learning more about Buddhism and so forth, so they’d—they also live out their faith, even though they may not show up in church and temple as much, but both have them have been through some very serious illnesses a couple times. You know, they recovered from that very quickly, but the monk was a part of the healing. He came to pray and so the kids saw and witnessed those moments and they feel that there’s a holy leader in their lives, somebody like that really helps with what I call a “divine intervention,” (laughs) yeah, in their life. BRODY: Divine intervention, yes. And also a real tangible community to belong to here in town. NGUYEN: Yeah. It’s growing, it’s unbelievable in terms of the number of followers and, yeah, it’s growing. BRODY: It’s part of your story here in Dallas. NGUYEN: Right, yeah, exactly. altar;ancestor worship;ancestors;blessings;Buddhism;Buddhist;ceremonies;churches;death;faith;Garland;monk;nonprofit status;religion;temples;traditions 5340 Connections between refugee experience and his career in social services BRODY: And the last sort of area that I wanted to hear you talk about because you are such a leader in Dallas today with Mosaic being as active as it is, I wondered if you could share a little bit about what your life is now today, what your job is, and sort of the different work that you do and how it is informed by your own experience as a refugee. NGUYEN: My job—I kind of grew into it and continued to grow from it, almost like by accident, but it’s something that I had dreamt about when I landed in America and took that first job. Actually, it’s the second job with Lutheran Social Services. There’s an area that is not well-explored or highly regarded within my own community and culture, and that is the human service side of profession. You know, you probably heard this already, that Asian—Vietnamese, in my situation—patterns anyone would expect a kid—engineers, doctors, do something tangible. But behavioral sciences, human services, social work, psychology, people don’t see why we do it. First, we may not make a lot of money. Secondly, how does this really help? Because in the culture of origin, and when I did mental health for years and years, we talked about traditional healing versus western medicine, and the idea was, well, western psychology, psychiatrists, unless they prescribe a pill, it’s not as good as an herbalist, as an eastern medicine, because they really give you something that you can see or cook and pour and making something out of it. So going to the field that I went to in social work, specializing in mental health was something that I know—from my larger family, not highly regarded, because like, the younger brother that I came with, he became an engineer and then quit engineering and became a doctor. BRODY: Oh really? NGUYEN: Yeah. And he has a very highly successful practice in Dallas these days. So the only thing that actually my family really highly regarded about me was my language ability, and actually get a PhD, even though it’s in a field that people think, “Wow, he doesn’t make money,” but in the culture really, they like credentials. They also value credentials, you know? When I go out in the community many people still say, call me “Doctor,” right? I cannot prescribe prescriptions for people’s life. Like “professor,” they highly regard that. “Doctor”? Okay. You know? Great. Just a very educated thing, you know? So they regard that. So that’s good. But what I do may not be in the community understanding of it or of cultural value of it was highly regarded. But you know, I found—actually, I’ve found actually it worked out to my benefit in a different way, because when I first came and after I got all my degrees, I found out that, you know, you can find hundreds of doctors, but you couldn’t find a social worker or somebody with my experience to do a job that not a lot of people will do. A job that could benefit a lot of people— BRODY: That’s true. You’re helping a lot of people. NGUYEN: —that I feel enriching and satisfying as well. And so—and that’s why I think when I got my master’s and already worked for the county and moved down here and found that job with Challenge and so forth, I suddenly realized this. I said, “You know what? To be competitive or to be known as a newcomer here, I need more credentials.” And that’s why after I moved to Texas, you know, and initially get in working as executive director of East Dallas Counseling Center, I went back to school at UTA for my doctorate. And I proved myself right, because after I get my doctorate, in every application for grants or anything that I sent and I attached my credentials there, I become more believable. Because if people look at the name, they can almost immediately say, “Should I believe this guy?” Right? Especially since it’s a strange name, you know. I mean, that’s a fact. We live in a society that discrimination is there to some degree, and in order to be competitive, what do you have to offer that will take you over somebody else? In addition to doing something unique, that’s serving a population that nobody else is serving, that’s good maybe, or as much as we could do here. I also have that credential that I can convince people that you can trust in me. BRODY: Right. Credibility. NGUYEN: Yeah, credibility. That’s it. So yeah. So I think that’s why I found my education, what I do, is very satisfying. Satisfactory for myself, but I think it’s very meaningful and that my stress not—I don’t have the stress for many people that worry about, “Oh my God, I don’t know if I’ll even have a job next year or not because it looks like, you know, (unintelligible) for a certain company,” or even—for so many people up there, and they make decisions over your life, your income or what. But here, I’m responsible for a lot of lives, and a lot of employees as well. But then I’m responsible for myself too, that whether I am successful or not is up to me. So I have that freedom, the onus and the responsibility of me to do what I need to do to live up to my, you know, expectations and desires. BRODY: That’s great. Well, it’s a very inspiring story, so thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else that you wanted to revisit, or anything that I might’ve missed in asking you? Or anything that you think people in the future might want to know about your experience? NGUYEN: You know, I think I covered a lot already. I think my very last point that you asked there, really, I cannot overemphasize, and I keep telling a lot of people. Because there are people in the community who actually went to me and asked this question: they say, “Hey, I’m creating this organization, I want to do exactly what you do. I love it.” You know, actually I—there was a professor from UTA, he’s Korean, and he came here a couple years ago. He taught research at graduate school, and he’s from Korea. And he just loved what I do here, and he asked me once, he said, “You know what, Walter? I want to do exactly what you’re doing.” But, he ended up didn’t do that, you know, and then he quit his job and he returned to his country. So what I’m saying here is this: for those who share the same experience as me, being from another country, arriving in America, not born here and want to explore a field that may be not popular in their country, in their cultural heritage or values or what, they have to find where their niche is going to be, and what is their asset, what they can offer that could be competitive for them to get a foot in the door for whatever they want to do. Now, my theory was this: in order to obtain certain things that you want, that somebody who are white, who are born here or with a credential that you have, you have to obtain a little higher one in order to be considered equal. So that’s just my— competition;credentials;credibility;discrimintation;Eastern medicine;education;language;mental health;Mosaic Family Services;satisfaction;social services;social work;status;success;traditional healing;Western medicine 6031 Expansion of East Dallas Counseling Center/Membership in United Way of Metropolitan Dallas I haven’t talked to you about what—East Dallas Counseling Center has expanded ten times compared to when it started, and much of the growth during the early years was because—and I’m as humble as an Asian person, I would never speak it in a bragging way—and that was: I helped create a lot of different things so that we can get our name out and be equal with other similar organizations, and one of the hardest things that I remember that took place, that really transformed Mosaic, and that was we became a member of the United Way. BRODY: That’s interesting. NGUYEN: And that happened in the year 1999. I wrote a letter to United Way of Metropolitan Dallas, and I asked them if they would ever consider accepting another member or not. No answer. And a year after that, that’s when they opened a new round, accepting some new agencies after almost ten years of freezing. So immediately I applied on behalf of East Dallas Counseling Center. Among two hundred agencies that applied, we went through a strenuous, very unbelievable, difficult process of vetting, including so many presentations and hearings. And I remember, I defended all the questions as though I’m defending my thesis. And I was able, along with the board that I created, navigated all of the vetting process and we successfully were accepted as one of the nine new agencies to the United Way out of two hundred. BRODY: Wow, that’s amazing. NGUYEN: And that opened the door for us, because that’s the first time after ten years they ever accepted a new agency, but because with the application United Way, they provided us the first unrestricted funding of $75,000 for me to hire a development director who was able to write grants. Whereas before that I’m the only one who wrote, and we were able to, within one year of receiving that money, open the first shelter for immigrants and refugee women. BRODY: Wow. Well that is an amazing accomplishment at the end of a long road. NGUYEN: Right. So I think that’s the one that I think really opened the door. BRODY: Yeah I think so, it sounds like it. Well thank you so much for your time and for sharing your story. It’s such an important story and you’re an inspiring person to interview, so thank you very much Dr. Nguyen. NGUYEN: Well, thank you for the opportunity, I love to share the story and hope that it gives some insight to the journey. BRODY: It absolutely did. Thank you so much. NGUYEN: Okay. end of interview East Dallas Counseling Center;funding;immigrants;Mosaic Family Services;refugees;shelter;social services;United Way of Metropolitan Dallas;women's shelter Baylor University Institute for Oral History Walter Hoan Nguyen Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody August 23, 2018 Mosaic Family Services Dallas, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is August 23, 2018. I'm interviewing, for the first time, Dr. Walter Nguyen. This interview is taking place at Dr. Nguyen's office at Mosaic Family Services on Greenville Avenue in Dallas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. Thank you, Dr. Nguyen, for meeting me and for being part of this project. Just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam? |00:00:36| NGUYEN: My life in Vietnam before I arrived in America was not good. It's--you know, it was post-1975, I was still there and lived under the new government's communist system for roughly seven to eight years or so, and I completely did not have any job. I was constantly under watch and spied on, mainly because I, before the Fall of Saigon, after my graduation from the University of Saigon, I worked for the South Vietnamese government as a press officer. That's why they highly suspected my whereabouts, my background, and would not allow me to apply for any job with the new--whether it's government or private entity, because they always frowned upon or look with a suspicious eye on anyone who had any tie with the former regime as well as the government, or even the American government then. So yes, so life was very rough. Food was scarce and no jobs, no transportation, even places to live, you know, had--this is rough, there is no place, permanent residence or anything. I lived with a relative who-- my entirely family did, so it's been very hard under that kind of condition, yeah. |00:02:51| BRODY: How old were you at the time of the Fall of Saigon? NGUYEN: I was twenty-four, going on to twenty-five years old. BRODY: Were you married already, at that point? NGUYEN: No, not yet. BRODY: Okay. So then, life was hard and it was hard to--no food, no job, it was difficult. What happened to you after the Fall of Saigon? What did you do next? NGUYEN: I'd--for almost two or three years or so, you know, I kept searching for a job. It hadn't been that easy. Like I said earlier, with all the--with the background in the way they look at who they should have employed and so forth, very hard. There was a short period in 1979, starting in 1979, I was able to find a teaching job, English teaching. Mostly it's just kind of a private tutoring with families, with young people and rich families who wanted their kids to learn English because a lot of people wanted to get out, and they thought that English would be something that--a language that most people need to learn, and because I graduated as an English major, so I was able to find a short- time teaching job. But that didn't last long, mainly because it didn't really make--I couldn't make a living out of it, but then also my desire at the time was to find a way to get out. |00:04:39| BRODY: So you had your eyes on leaving Vietnam the whole time. So how did it come to pass that you were able to leave? NGUYEN: Yeah, actually, my first attempt to leave Vietnam was in 1979, was only like four years after the Fall of Saigon. But it was unsuccessful, poorly planned, and I actually got arrested and was put in jail for about three months with no official charge of anything besides the fact that they said, you know, "If you're trying to escape Vietnam, you're committing treason. And our punishment could be anywhere from imprisonment to capital punishment, which could mean that we can kill you if we want to." That's all they said. So I was jailed for the three months, but then I was released. After the release, I virtually became homeless because I couldn't go back to where I used to live, because then the local authority would be very hard on me, so I joined a group that made another attempt--make a big attempt to escape, but this one is actually more organized and have more money to buy a better boat. And during 1979, especially after my failed attempt, there was this big push by the Vietnamese authority for the Chinese to get out of Vietnam, because they had some dispute with China. And so what they were trying to do was they organized actually a legal deportation, in a way, but they allowed a lot of ethnic Chinese, you know, Vietnamese of Chinese descent, to leave legally on those boats, as long as they pay. So we were--I was one of those who got on one of these boats, but registered, we paid all the money we have, but never get to leave, because that whole thing only lasted for, like, two years or so and then they cancelled everything. So I didn't ever get to leave. I continued to live on that little boat anyway, because I have no home, and then from that point I make, you know, under the owner of the boat's organization-- they're trying to help a lot of people to get out on a little boat instead of his big one--and so I try another three attempts, and out of the three attempts, one failed, but I was able to get away and not be arrested. The other two I got arrested again, so I was put in jail for another two times over a period of about five or six months, two different jails. |00:08:00| BRODY: For trying to escape. NGUYEN: Trying to escape and failed, and they discovered the trip, including one that I thought I might consider lucky to be rescued, because I was already on the boat and out to the sea, not very far yet, but early in the morning I found out the boat was overly crowded and I could say, you know, it could capsize any time just because it's too crowded, too many people, and, you know, it's not seaworthy. But unfortunately, but then fortunately, we were captured by the Coast Guard. And they towed everybody back, and then I was jailed for like two and a half months with no official charge. I did a lot of labor work, and then released without even knowing why I was released, and when--all that. And so anyway, the last time that I made the trip that was successful is November of 2018--I'm sorry, of 1992 [Brody note: meant to say "1982"], November, and that was more well-organized by the owner of that big ship (unintelligible), and we actually bought--he actually bought a fishing boat and took some of us, mostly just guys, to go out there and work as fishermen in a little town on the coastline of South Vietnam. And then one day, and I remember it was November--I think it's October thirtieth--it was very dark, it's a dark night--October the thirtieth, thirty-first or so, of 1982, we all gather, families and friends, thirty-six altogether, we got on that boat and we sailed out as though we're going fishing. And it was dark. At night when we chose to leave was very dark, you know, it's not a full moon night or anything, it's very dark, and that's how we were able to escape successfully without being caught without anybody chasing after us. After three days and three nights on the high sea, we were aiming to go toward the Philippines, because this is in the southern part of Vietnam, but it's more or less we get out of the boat with--there was a--there's not a lot of equipment. There's a compass, that's the only thing, and so we're just going to steer east, yes, but it's sort of a--it's going south as well, somehow we were drifting south. And then on the night of November--about three nights or so after we left, we were spotted by a French vessel. BRODY: Spotted by the French-- |00:11:26| NGUYEN: Yeah, yeah, it's called the Le Goelo. And Le Goelo is--and I think it was a miracle, because Le Goelo was a ship that was chartered by a group of French doctors, who during the early eighties and the late seventies, because of the boat peoples' situation, they wanted to go out on the south Asian--yeah, South Asian Sea to pick up and rescue refugees. And this was a miracle because it was very dark, 8 p.m. at night, they--we were near something that we thought it may be an island or what, but we didn't know what it was. I think we almost ran out of fuel. There was some trouble with the engine, and all of a sudden we hear some loud noise, an approaching ship, and then they ran very fast and somebody from up there on that ship asked us to stop. We were scared, we thought it just might be just the Vietnamese communists' boat or maybe Russian, very friendly to them, maybe they just found us and tow us back or what. But anyway, that was a miraculous night because as soon as we stopped, they shined lights on our boat and somebody on that boat spoke English. And the question they asked us was, "Does anyone on this boat speak English?" So I immediately ran up to the upper deck and I said, "Yes, I do." Then the second question was--and I will never forget this--the question was, "Are you good people?" Because I think the question was asked because they didn't know if we were actually refugees, fishermen, or even pirates. You know? It's very hard to tell, it was (unintelligible) of dark and all that. BRODY: Right. They wanted to know, too. NGUYEN: Fortunately, we actually have children and women. So everybody go up, and I said, "Yes, we are. We are refugees, we're trying to escape Vietnam." And this is the word that I remember and I tell a lot of people when I was doing talking about that day, I said this is the word I hear from the captain. He said, "Then come on board." And they immediately operated a rescue mission, a rescue task--and just unforgettable. They put a big net over to us, to our boat, and then some of their sailors went out, they started carrying the women, children. And they said, "Any belongings, anyone wanting to come, just go." And so we all, men, just climbed up there on the net, and they took it over, everything. After everything was done, they said, "Well, come over here, take a last look at your boat, because by law, we have to sink it." BRODY: Oh boy. |00:14:51| NGUYEN: Yes. Because if there's a floating boat on the sea they--you know, international law or something about they have to--if they see something like that, people have to find out what's going on there. So now that they already rescued the people, so they've got to sink that boat. So they sunk the boat, and we saw it slowly-- BRODY: How did you feel as you were watching that sinking? NGUYEN: Yeah, it's a mixed emotion because, you know, that boat is the ticket, is the ticket for us to get to freedom, and now we are leaving something that's so dear to us. Although, you know, we had some very rough days on the boat, because, you know, without water and food and a lot of people get sick, but really, without that boat, we'd never see freedom. We'd never seen a better day. Anyway, they got us. We found out that this boat was on the last mission--last day of the mission because they're returning back to their port of origin, which is Singapore. BRODY: So you were probably one of their last groups of people that they rescued. |00:16:23| NGUYEN: Yes. Actually, when we were rescued we went up there and I found out the crew of that boat, the ship, was international. Most of them were from France, from Germany, and some of them, like, Swedens, and you know, all of these are part of the Doctors of the World's association or group. And they told us, "You know, we have rescued a lot of people, and what we do after we rescue the refugees, we would bring them to Palawan in the Philippines where there's Vietnamese refugees there. However, we actually were just from there, we're on our way back because we're out of fuel and this is our --we've been doing it for a month already on the high sea and we're on our way back home. We're turning back. But as soon as we saw you guys, we cannot just neglect--we cannot just let go. We had to stop, because this is our mission. So what happens is we will have to take every one of you going back--going to Singapore, and then we will refuel and then we will ask the French government to accept everybody here for resettlement in France," because there was an agreement about the country then was that any ship from any country that got these boat people and rescued them, the government of that country will resettle them. So that's kind of the rule. BRODY: That was the rule. |00:18:14| NGUYEN: So from living in hell, we're now living in paradise, because these boats are designed to have at least two hundred to three hundred people; it only has thirty-six. And so we were treated to some very good cuisine, very nice food, and have a place to sleep, but more important than anything, we breathe freedom. We know we got it, you know what I mean? We no longer have to fear about the communists, we no longer have to worry about being chased after, being spied on, or lack of food and all kinds of things. So that's the greatest feeling ever. When we got to Singapore, we were not allowed in there, because we are stateless. We having nothing of worth, of anything, no document or what. They radioed to the French government and the French government says, "Yeah, we'll accept all of these to resettle in France." Then they refuel and then sail back to the Philippines. So we spent another ten days-- BRODY: On the sea? |00:19:24| NGUYEN: --on the sea. And this time it's a cruising ship. It's not an escape boat. This is a cruising ship. It's unbelievable. So we're up on the deck. We'll see beautiful landscape and sky and see all kinds of places. We got to the Philippines, and I believe it was November sixth when we got there--no, I think--yeah, November sixth or November tenth, probably November tenth, I remember, of '82, and so all thirty-six of us, safe and sound, men and women and children, and we were there. Welcomed by the committees of Vietnamese refugees of Palawan, and we are immediately assigned someplace to stay, to sleep and eat and then start a new life as a refugee there for a few months. Now you might wonder, well, if the French government agreed to resettle everybody, why are we--you know, get a chance to go to America instead of going to France? Well, during my college year, I actually worked for the US government as well as a Vietnamese instructor to the American advisors, because many of the advisors to the Vietnam war during those days, they wanted to learn Vietnamese so that they could talk to people, and so being an English major, I was able to work part time and teach them--taught them Vietnamese. There was a curriculum that was designed by the state department so it's not just like whatever as a teach--but based on a curriculum language institute. It was called Armed Forces Language Institute curriculum. So anyway, because of that background-- and it was verified during my interview for resettlement with the US delegation at the refugee camp--that they were able to verify that I had worked for the US government agency overseas in Vietnam. So in a way, I was foreign employee of the US government. And with that status, it will take precedent over any country resettlement-- BRODY: The French. NGUYEN: French, yeah. And so that's how I and my brother--actually, two of us, me and my brother, escaped together--were able to go to America. BRODY: Okay. And everyone else went to France? NGUYEN: Yeah. The rest went to France, and--actually, a few of them--a few actually went to Australia. Australia, you know, because they had some brotherly connections, so they can go to Australia. But the two of us--and maybe there's another family I remember, because the wife in that family was also an employee with the US government as well, so there's like two families went to America, a total of about eight people or so. The rest, about thirty-six, went to France, with a few going to Australia, yeah. |00:23:01| BRODY: So did you come first to Texas, or you were sent somewhere else in the United States? NGUYEN: I went to--first when I got to the United States I would resettle and came to a family of the sponsor in Wisconsin, in a little town called Ashland, Wisconsin. There was some connection there, because in 1996--I'm sorry, 1967--long time ago--I was a foreign exchange student from Vietnam, and I was like eleventh grade. So I got to come and live with that family in Wisconsin and went to school for one year and then came back. BRODY: So that same family sponsored you? NGUYEN: Yeah. |00:23:58| BRODY: So you were in the Philippines, had been accepted to come resettle in the United States. NGUYEN: Right. BRODY: And did you make contact with them? NGUYEN: Yeah, as soon as I got there I made the contact with them, and they were very excited and happy to find out that I had got out safely and they were willing to sign the paperwork to sponsor me in Wisconsin, yeah. BRODY: Did they sponsor your brother also? |00:24:23| NGUYEN: Yeah. The two of us went to Wisconsin. We stayed there for about three months. I found a job working in North Dakota for a factory in a little town called Wahpeton for like a year or so. The owner of that company had sponsored a lot of refugees from all kinds of places, working for his company, making canvas. BRODY: Canvas. NGUYEN: Yeah, canvas. You know, I just worked for a short time, for a year or so, and then I found this job working for Lutheran Social Services of North Dakota in Fargo-- that was in 1984--as a bilingual case worker, because there's a lot of unaccompanied minors from Vietnam who escape and who are placed through Lutheran Immigration Services with foster homes. And North Dakota has the program, resettle all those minors, and they need a bilingual worker who can communicate with the kids and the family, you know? So that's why I found-- BRODY: You were perfect, you-- |00:25:53| NGUYEN: Yeah. So I worked there for like, two years until '86. And then my brother, during the meantime, decided that he wanted to go back to school. He was in the pharmacy school back in Vietnam when he escaped with me, but he hasn't finished that. So he decided to go back to school, but not in pharmacy, but engineer--electrical engineering at University of Minnesota. So he got there, like--he went there in 1985 already. 1986, after two years of working I decided that, well, you know, I really liked this field even though it's not what my prior education is all about. But I really liked, you know, social service and being a social worker, that kind of thing. So I also decided to go back to school and apply to graduate school at the University of Minnesota for my master's in social work. Got in, graduated in two years or so. But during those two years I stayed connected with refugee programs everywhere. As a matter of fact, I was trained by--when I was a bilingual worker I was trained by a group in Colorado called the Spring Institute for International Studies. And the Spring Institute during those days, what they do is they provide a lot of cross-cultural mental health training for bilingual case workers and so forth. So I happened to attend two of their sessions, and I discovered that this is something I like to do, and they kind of liked--and really like what they see in me in terms of potential. So after I graduate from University of Minnesota, they invited me to be back to become one of their consultants. BRODY: Oh, wow. |00:27:58| NGUYEN: So actually, I worked as a consultant for them, meaning I went back and did a lot of training for them. So I have done a lot of cross-cultural training in, you know, for case workers with them, traveled to several states and do a lot of those things. But after I graduated officially, you know, I worked for the county of Hennepin in Minnesota for, like, a year, over a year or so as a social worker. And it was '86--actually, no, '87 is when I--no, I'm sorry. I joined the school in '86, graduated in '88. In between--actually, when I graduated was on the same time I became a US citizen, which was like five years after my arrival. Arrival, '83--so '88 would be five years--applied, and became a US citizen. At the same time, I worked for the county of Hennepin County, so we celebrated the naturalization at the county. It was a great time, you know, everybody just loved that and celebrated with me. Then I traveled to Texas just to meet my--because my brother, after he graduated from the University of Minnesota as an engineer, he moved to Texas, got married, and he worked for GD, General Dynamics in Fort Worth. So I was the only one left there. So I decided, you know, to quit my job and move to Texas as well. But before that, I was introduced to my then fiancée, who is now my wife, who was also a refugee herself, and she was working for a refugee employment program in Dallas. And that was the year of 1989, the end of 1989, early '90 when I moved to Dallas, Texas. BRODY: So that's how you got to Dallas. (laughs) NUGYEN: Yeah, it's quite a change. BRODY: Yes, I'm sure from both Vietnam and from Minnesota, and North Dakota. NGUYEN: Exactly, yeah. |00:30:27| BRODY: Well, what was Dallas like when you first came here? What do you remember about those times? NGUYEN: Yeah, you know, Dallas at that--during those--1989, early '90 or so, there was a lot of refugees at that time. For every kid coming, especially south Asians; Laos, Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Dallas was known to me--or Texas as a whole--as a southern state and there was discrimination the way that I was told and learned about. Because when I left Minnesota, which was known as very liberal, very friendly, very welcoming, I was told by somebody who used to be from Texas, who worked in Minnesota, she told me, "Why Texas?" (Brody laughs) You know? And she said, "Did you know that they speak with the Southern drawl there?" And secondly, "You know that people are not that friendly there," you know? And I said, "Well, I don't know if I have a choice. I'm alone now, my fiancée lives there, you know, and she has here entire family here, so it's logical that I move there than she move north. So I will go and I'll take the chance on all this thing." But you know, back to your question, when I came to Dallas, I was surprised that it has already been very international, the city itself. And that I haven't heard that Southern drawl a lot, and that there are a lot of friendly people, and that there's huge refugee communities here as opposed to the one that I left in Minnesota, and there's a lot of opportunity and school and all of that that opened up to me. As a matter of fact, when I first moved to Texas, I actually didn't go directly to Dallas, because I had to find a job first before I moved. The first job that got me to Texas was in Palestine. So when I moved in the early--no, actually the end of 1989, in December--no, actually October--I found a job with a Texas state--a state hospital in Rusk. It's called Rusk State Hospital, which is part of Texas Department of Health and the Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation, TDMHMR. That's the name. And so I work for the state hospital as a social worker, lived in Palestine, rented an apartment there. So that's the foot in the door to Texas. And as a matter of fact, there is when I witnessed discrimination and Southern drawl. So many of the people in east Texas, you know, speak with the accent that nobody that I have heard in Dallas would have spoken. But fortunately, my fiancée and her parents live in Dallas, so I just make that commute every weekend, come back and forth, you know. But then I was able to locate a position opening at Dallas Multicultural Community Center, which helped refugees, you know, with all kinds of services: employment, social services, mental health counseling (unintelligible). So I got that first job as a mental health-- |00:34:35| BRODY: Was that down in East Dallas? NGUYEN: No. Yeah, I mean, East Dallas, yeah, the center used to be on Munger. Yeah, it's Munger--it's called Munger Place. So yeah, I was there, I worked there for-- interesting--for about six months--maybe less, even less. Then the organization in Dallas here, a nonprofit with the name called Dallas Challenge. They're a nonprofit that works with youth doing substance abuse education prevention. They wanted to set up a program in East Dallas to provide substance abuse education prevention kind of thing for the Asian youth. And so they actually found me while I was working for the Multicultural Community Center, so I-- |00:35:57| BRODY: So they found you. So that sounds like there was a need in Dallas at that point. So by the mideighties, there was enough of a refugee population here and a young refugee population that there was a need for a special substance abuse and mental health. And so how did they find you? NGUYEN: Well you know, I was working at the Multicultural Community Center, and one day there was a guy, and he worked for that Dallas Challenge. And he was a social worker, Hispanic. He came to the center and looked around and then he met me, and he said, "Hey," introduced himself and said, look, he's looking for maybe an Asian person, you know, with a degree, maybe a social work degree or a counseling degree that can manage a new program they are going to establish here in Dallas. So after he left, you know, and he gave me his business card, I called back and said, "I want to tell you that I am the one you're looking for." BRODY: That's amazing. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he said, "Is that true?" "Yeah." And so I told him, you know, my background, my education, all that, then he said, "Great. Do you want to apply for this?" I said sure, and so I applied for the position. They interviewed me and then they offered me the position. And I found out that the idea for them is to find someone, they will train the person for three years, and then they will let the person--they will spin off that particular branch that they establish to become its own entity, which was perfect, because my--I just loved to be able to develop, create an agency, something like that, and now this is an opportunity to work for someone else, maybe in a field that's not necessarily very prevalent in terms of substance abuse within the Asian population; however, this is a stepping stone, a beginning where--nowhere that you can get this, you know? So after three years or so, I got all the training that I needed to manage and know what an operation is like, and I formed a board and all of that. Then they official spin me off in '93, in the fall of '93. BRODY: And did you get a new name for the organization? NGUYEN: Yeah--well, the name is still the same name as the organization under them, which was East Dallas Counseling Center. So I continued that name until 2003 when we changed to Mosaic Family Services, yeah. BRODY: Which is where you are now. NGUYEN: Right, right, yeah. BRODY: So with the East Dallas community--Counseling Center, sorry--that was located in-- NUGYEN: In East Dallas, right in the--right on--let's see, Bryan Street, where there's what they call Little Asia. |00:39:50| BRODY: Yes, Little Asia, that's what I was going to ask you about. In Little Asia, can you share with me any of your memories of sort of what the energy was like, what that felt like during the time period that you were working there and when the East Dallas Counseling Center was getting established in that area? Because it was a vibrant area. NGUYEN: Community, yeah. See, a lot of newly arrived refugees lived right there when they first came. As a matter of fact, all of the resettlement agencies, like Catholic Charities and Refugee Services of Texas and International Rescue Committee, they-- when they brought the sponsor of those refugees, they noticed most of them were southeast Asian, Vietnamese predominantly. They just occupied a lot of the apartment complexes around that little area. BRODY: The voluntary agencies have those apartments. NGUYEN: Right, around there. So it's just like a village of--a Vietnamese village, a Lao village, a Cambodian village outside of Southeast Asia. |00:41:04| BRODY: Right. Did you live there, also, in that area? NGUYEN: No. I--well, actually, I lived in East Ellisberg, I lived off of White Rock Lane. So it's not too far from there, but it's also East Dallas. BRODY: But you were there in Little Asia working all the time? NGUYEN: Right, right, yeah. |00:41:21| BRODY: So, I mean, what did it sound like? Were you just hearing different languages on the street? How about the food? NGUYEN: Yeah. You know, the fun thing was there are a lot of people from different communities, but they all get along very well, they all are clustered around an area, and then they started small restaurants, like that Vietnam restaurant that still is very--it's still operational now and doing very well. When I came, back in the early 1990, they were already there. They continue to thrive, and you know there's a Laos restaurant across the street, there's a Thai food as well, there's a Cambodian shop--restaurant on--let's see, on Carroll Street, which is just a block away. And then down the road towards uptown, not downtown, but toward--on Bryan, there are two restaurants. One is Vietnamese, called Mai, M-a-i, Mai's Vietnamese Restaurant, and then there's a restaurant that's still now is functioning, it's--I can't remember the name, but they sort of half Chinese, half Vietnamese. They're doing fine. And there are little grocery stores sprung up too. There's one--and I think the exciting part was that the Dallas Police Department started hiring the Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian police officers, and there's a group that they-- because they found out that the best model of policing is to hire civilians who work for the police department, but become an outreach contact for the department, who go into communities and establish relationships with refugees who arrive there. Because historically, refugees don't like police because, you know, in their own country, police are not their friend, not protecting them, they're protecting the government or somebody else. The police is harassing them, you know, making their life--they're more like not law enforcement, but they're--you know, they're harassing people, they make people's life hard, they really persecute and all of that. So this model is working real well, because these are very friendly people, and they go into the community and see what people need, and that's how to prevent crime. Because they found out that, Oh wow, sometimes they bring rice and they welcome anybody who arrives here with a bag of rice and some fish sauce or something-- |00:44:47| BRODY: The police? NGUYEN: Yes. They do that in conjunction with the resettlement and community center, but it works really well. And so--and I think they continued that model until very recently when refugees were no longer needed or live here, because after a few years, East Dallas, Little Asia was not so much Little Asia anymore because--there are still some restaurants, but the inhabitants and the residents of that community have moved out; moved out to the suburbs, moved out to other towns, after they have found jobs they have been able to (intercom noise sounds)--oh God (unintelligible). pause in recording |00:45:35| BRODY: All right. Go ahead, carry on. NGUYEN: Okay, yeah. So I think again, that model worked really well and very friendly. So yeah, being there right in the middle of Little Asia, eating the food that I'm familiar with, parking, working with the folks that share my experience was very inspiring. BRODY: Yeah, and also probably--it sounds like made you feel more at home-- NGUYEN: Exactly. BRODY: --and more a part of a community. I'd imagine that being a refugee or even moving from North Dakota, you could possibly feel isolated, but coming into a vibrant, welcoming community like that sounds like it's (unintelligible) good. I'm glad you brought up the police, because the Dallas Police Department and the city of Dallas--I wonder if you have, you know, in the work that you did, if you had a lot of contact with the city or with the police department in working in the mental health area for refugees. |00:46:40| NGUYEN: The mental health is not necessarily where the contact with the police department as much as later on when we created the Family Violence component or program, because a lot of victims or survivors were brought to us by the police department, or we worked closely with them so that we can inform them of what the needs are. And we also provide translation and interpretation. So that's how we were, we're constantly in contact and, you know, in our work with the police department. The mental health part which--it's not so much the police that we make contact with or partnered with. It's the community itself, especially community leaders and groups, or sometimes individuals who have received some help and feel that it's benefit them to spread the word. That's how we were able to reach out to a lot of people and do some education through outreach about what mental health is. "You can get help, and this is how, where, and you can get it." In the early days, our mental health counseling program was very small, and we did mostly just a lot of case management and outreach because the funding is not there. Most of the funding from government that we receive, goes through providing case management, access to services for physical health and mental health for any refugee group. But later on, we found out that through Family Violence, we were able to access more funding and we were able to--yeah, it doesn't have to be just refugees, it could be any other marginalized groups, immigrants as a whole that are survivors. So we primarily still target refugees, although the refugee population has changed over time. For example, after several years, we started seeing a lot of Bosnian, you know? And we see that, and so I hire Bosnian case workers and then later on you have, you know, during the same time, at that time we have the Kurdish refugees as well. So the police department is always very friendly. And, by the way, through the Little Asia community, the police department had created the storefront, the police storefronts. Yeah, which for many years were right across the street from us on Peak. And that was an excellent concept as well, because it's more accessible. They don't have to go-- people have to go right downtown, and people are more scared of that, and they have civilian officers as well who work for the police department, who speak all of these languages, so, you know--and so people can access the police department just like a social service, and I think that model really worked out well. |00:50:48| BRODY: Yeah, it really worked, especially for the community in Little Asia. That model seems like it led to such great success that, you know, as you said, many people moved out of Little Asia because they moved to the suburbs or whatever it was. What is your observation of the Vietnamese community from--I know you got here in the eighties, but, you know, as they grew from 1975 till the present, and what is--in your experience or your observation, what is the story of the Vietnamese community in north Texas? NGUYEN: It's almost the same story everywhere you go. Earlier today on the way back here from lunch, I heard over NPR a refugee from Vietnam who came here when he was four years old, talked about some of the issues with immigration and refugees and so forth. And he completely reminded me of what I have seen over the years, what happened with the Vietnamese refugees everywhere we go. And that is--the story is almost similar, regardless--and you probably have known this--the refugees from Vietnam came in three different waves primarily. You have the "boat people" and the early evacuees after '75, and then you have the Amerasians, you know, they're Amerasian. And then you have the former political prisoners. So they are a different group, came because of a different reason, you know, but they all came to America at different times, always started out pretty rough in terms of very little resources they have when they came, but they only--they go through some gradual adjustment period. For some who have good education, they could adjust within a year or two years, some it's longer. But it's all about rebuilding their life and provide for their kids, opportunity to obtain a good education, and eventually these young kids are the ones that will make the dream come true for everyone. And their story has always been just like that. And they are very successful as businessmen, in all kinds of professions. Of course, some of the traditional values they bring with them such as, you know, strong family values and emphasis on education, they may have certain bias regarding which profession that you need to pursue that creates some pressure for younger people. And for me and my wife, and we were just like all these parents nowadays. Our kids were born here, so they grew up with different sets of values as compared to what their parents' values were, but there's got to be some compromise. But like that story was told earlier when I heard that the refugees, the Vietnamese refugees, has never been an issue, even though they came over a stretch of many years, especially ever since 1975, there's a lot of opposition for welcoming the early wave of refugees from Vietnam after the end of the war, but like the man said, they are an invisible group of people. Nobody talks about them at all until they become a problem. Then they become so visible, just like nowadays with the border crossers and refugees that--with immigrants and people who cross the border, immigration becomes a huge problem and then refugees (unintelligible) it's a difficult topic as well. So the stories of the Vietnamese refugees was said to be kind of invisible. It has never been visible, really. If it is visible, it's all about success, it's about oh, some, you know, unusual contribution and all of that. And fortunately it has not a story of troublemaking or for negative press coverage or anything like that. You know, occasionally they talk about like a gang group here and there, but the majority of the Vietnamese refugees have contributed so much to America and make their lives much better than where they came from and contribute so much to making America more diverse. They give back so much and make our country stronger. So I see--that's really the kind of story I've seen in every group. You know, if I say that, you probably won't be surprised. When I and my wife got married here in the--actually in 1990, that was a time when a lot of Amerasians arrived. And you've heard of Amerasians, right? We have adopted a few--not adopted in terms of legal adoption or anything, but for example, there are several Amerasian children-- well, they're sort of teens, and then when they came with their mother and their mother got so ill and passed away, before she passed away she said, you know, "Could I entrust you to take care of my children?" And we said, "Sure." So we continue to help and watch after those kids. Now, none of those kids had any education. |00:58:49| BRODY: They just came recently? NGUYEN: Yeah, yeah--no, no, these were back in the nineties. BRODY: In the nineties, okay. |00:58:55| NGUYEN: The Amerasians was the second group of refugees that arrived. Like I said, three waves. The first wave, the "boat people," that was my wave. And then you have Amerasian is the second wave, and then you have the political prisoners--former prisoners--the third wave. Which--Amerasians and former political prisoners came very close to each other, anywhere between around '88 to around 1998, so about ten years or so of that. They--those children, no education, because that's the reality of what they suffered back in the Vietnam. You know, very poor, were not accepted, they completely were discarded by society and considered by what people called "dust of life." That's the word they called these Amerasian children, "dust of life." They considered them just like dirt. That's really what it is. Anyway, when we sponsored these kids, you know, in a way like we say, "Okay, we'll take care of you guys, come and visit us and if you need anything we'll take care of them." And I remember during the early years, I have bailed some of these guys out of jail a couple times because, you know, they didn't know anything about law, so we start helping them, then--tell you what happened twenty-some years later. The children have grown up. They went to Ivy League schools, they graduated from UT--Austin. Some doctors, some joined even the US Army, some are engineers, and look at where they came from. BRODY: Yeah, those are some great success stories. |01:00:49| NGUYEN: Yeah. And it's not unusual either, because I've seen a rampant number of these families, always the same. I haven't seen any of these children from the Amerasian group who have not been successful. You know, maybe some more dramatic than some others, but none of them that I've seen have become homeless or the children not going to school or doing something productive and contributing back. So regardless of the background, it's just--what America gives them, the opportunity, they seize on it and make something--and make a great story for themselves. BRODY: It's a great story for everyone, yes. NGUYEN: Yeah, exactly, yeah. |01:01:41| BRODY: That brings me to another area that we haven't talked about yet, and that's the question of becoming American and being American, or the idea of identity. Can you tell me a little bit about your thoughts, having been in not just two different countries but, you know, different parts of this country? What does it mean to you to say that you're American, or to say that someone's American? NGUYEN: I think just for my situation, half of my lifetime--actually, over half of my lifetime now, I've lived here. Less than half of my lifetime was back there, and so--but I was born there, and have spent many years there of my early years there. It's very hard to forget that root, it's very hard to forget that language and that connection to, you know, to the Vietnamese heritage. So for me, becoming American (cell phone rings)--let me see, I need to--how do I turn it off, here--becoming American is a necessary process to be successful because in this community, in the larger society, to gain a career, to have a place in this community, you have to be--you have to get a good education, that's almost a sin qua non, you know, it's a necessary thing. But you have to adopt certain values that are functioning that would keep you or put you in the same consideration when you go out there and compete for a job or to gain an opportunity for a new career or life in America. So that--if I go to work, I am only American. You know, that's supposed to be that way, because what I do, the language that I use every day, the people I work with, you know, and the partners and the community, everything else and not just local, nationally and internationally too, it's that American identity seems to take over. I would say a small part of that identity, more or less sort of invisible or hidden, is still there as a Vietnamese when I come home, when I celebrate certain traditional festivals or what, and because of that root that I said is there. You cannot just chop it off and say you don't know anything about it. It's still there. So I would say to be successful, you would adopt the identity and become part of the American identity, but you don't necessarily have to forget who you are and where you came from, because that--sometimes, especially if you were not born here, somehow it's hard to say you a hundred percent belong in here, you know, even though that's what your life has always been now. Still, there's little space there. So I have concluded that--and even with the staff working here, I've seen successful people are the ones who are able to navigate successful in both cultures without favoring one to another, and so adoption of an identity as an American doesn't necessarily negate where you came from. As a matter of fact, with what happened in the country of origin in our day was very troublesome, because we--you know, and I don't know if you have been aware of, because what recently have been happening back in Vietnam was that there is a lot of--the government itself has tried to become close to China, and recently they proposed certain laws where they would lease the land for ninety-nine years to communist China, and so there's a lot of resistance from the people because if this is what they do, they'd basically be selling the country. Sold out. Sell it to China. And so what we are scared the most right now, and not just--well, the identity of whether you're American and Vietnamese or not, we may not even have that Vietnamese identity any longer. BRODY: Right, so that's troubling. |01:08:11| NGUYEN: Yeah, it's very troubling. And so many people who demonstrated and went out there were arrested now, and they basically--you know, the communists, they enforced the law, the way they interpret is very strongly, they will not allow any peaceful demonstrations, they arrest so many dissidents, so many who just express that, you know, we don't want this to happen. They arrest a lot of people and putting in jail, but I think-- and Vietnam nowadays already have seen so many Chinese businesses--actually, as a matter of fact, something really sad is that Chinese actually can go to Vietnam without a visa. And yet, Vietnamese who go to China, you have to apply for a visa. So they have free access to our country, but not the other way around. And the problem is the authority there, they're communist, they owe so much to the Chinese during the war time, whatever that was. It seems like the way they would return the debt was by selling our land. And so yeah, that's been more troublesome now than anything. So to us now, you know, I mean, when we talk about identity, I think definitely the American identity is almost there, it's just always there, but the troublesome part is we may lose our root. |01:10:02| BRODY: That is very sad. On the question of identity, I was also interested, since you mentioned your kids were born here, you know, the pattern of first generation, second generation--what has your family story been in terms of having, you know, a set of kids who are born in the United States and have only lived here, but also trying to maintain connection to the culture of the family? How have you and your wife navigated it, how do your kids feel, and what do you see going forward in terms of the growth of that? NGUYEN: Right. You know, I consider our situation with our children somewhat fortunate, and that was--we acculturated as parents very quickly. We also obtained an education here as well. So we understand what it means to be born here and growing up here. So for our children, we taught them what our roots are, what the values are, and sometimes they actually watch how we interact with our old community and now our extended family, so they can see that. Our children grew up, and one thing we insisted, especially my wife, was for them to learn Vietnamese. Both of them were enrolled in Vietnamese school when they were young because we weren't too worried about them not learning English, they were born here, but we worried about them not learning Vietnamese. |01:12:03| BRODY: Right. And was it easy to find Vietnamese classes, Vietnamese school? NGUYEN: Yeah. Mostly it's offered through churches and temples. BRODY: The churches, yeah. NGUYEN: You know, thirty-some years later, almost turning--no, maybe fifteen years or so later after they graduated from college, all of that, the oldest one--we have two-- the oldest one retained his Vietnamese and is very good at it. And actually, he made-- that really helped him with landing a job, as well as being promoted, because he offered better competitively--because he worked for the bank industry, banking industry--that he is a bilingual in Vietnamese. In the market where there's a lot of Vietnamese customers, for example, he became-- BRODY: So he's a real asset. |01:13:01| NGUYEN: Yeah, he's an asset. So, you know, they--and we encouraged them to continue to participate in traditional events and festivals, and there are a few of those throughout the years. So they grew up appreciating where their roots are, but definitely their identity is American, and they keep telling us that, (Brody laughs) you know? But we haven't had any conflict at all, and we do allow--and we do understand if they behave in a certain way, unless it's an extreme behavior that's not highly regarded, then we may correct them, but they--and they understand us too, but I think the fortunate part was that we also acculturated to this culture fast, and we also obtained the education like they were obtaining, even though we are much older when we had this education here, and so we understand. I think the struggle with intergenerational conflict occurs more with families where there is disparity between--within the education of the parents and the kids and especially, you know, you probably have heard so many of the stories when this kid goes to school and they communicate entirely in English, and the school tries to communicate with the family, and the families say, "Oh my God, our kid is in trouble" or what, because in Vietnam, the school only communicates if the kid's in trouble, it's not about discussing or talking about a PTA meeting or about a grade report, anything, you know? That's what happened in the early days when I was at the East Dallas Counseling Center. There's a lot of cases of child abuses being reported because parents didn't know how to control this kid. |01:15:03| BRODY: So that's where the lack of communication--so you observed that in your work, that this was happening. So could you share, like, just generally what some of those cases looked like? NGUYEN: Yeah. There was a case back then when I was at the East Dallas Counseling Center early in the year, probably around '91--yeah, 1991. There was a young kid, Vietnamese, male, who attended North Dallas High School. And his--I think his--it's a single parent, the mother, Vietnamese, who didn't speak English that much, nor had an education higher than maybe high school, even less. He went to school one day and the counselor and the teacher, the ESL teacher actually is the one that discovered that he had some bruises around his legs, and he was like--I think he was like tenth grade. So they immediately report him to the vice principal, and the vice principal interviewed him and said, "What happened?" And he said, "Well, my mom shackled me, chained me to the bed." So of course he didn't say why, because that "why" really matters, he just--nobody asked why. They just saw that and they immediately reported it to Child Protective Services and all of that. So they invited the mother for an interview, and then they called us. One of our case managers goes into school and finds out what's going on. And so we had a chance to talk to the mother, and then this is what she told us. She said that--we were told that he skipped school a lot, but then the school said, well, you know if the kid skips school, the parent is responsible. You know, I mean the thing about truancy, you know--they have truancy court, if the kid is skipping school so many times, the parent could be fined or arrested. |01:17:44| BRODY: So she was scared. NGUYEN: Yeah, she was scared. So she said that "In order for me to control and make sure that he would go to school the next day, because he typically would leave the house at night and having fun or going somewhere, he isn't going to return home or he sleeps somewhere I didn't know, I had to chain him against the bed so that the next day I make sure that he's there to go to school. I don't know that this is against the law." BRODY: I see. NGUYEN: You see that? So that experience can make some parents really powerless and helpless because they really meant well, but they don't know what else to do. Really, they don't know. You know, how else are they going to keep this kid at home? BRODY: Right. And they can't communicate directly. |01:18:39| NGUYEN: Yeah. So that's one story that I remember that just demonstrated that intergenerational communication conflict and, you know, not just between parents and children, but school as well because, see, the parent really didn't know and don't know what to do because they don't understand why this law makes them responsible. In our country, when they send the kid to school, the kid is the parents' substitute. I mean, the teacher is the parents' substitute. We entrust the kid to your hands. You take care of them, don't bother us. BRODY: So the parent is out of the picture. NGUYEN: Yes, yeah. So that's where they're coming from. So that's why when the school communicates, "Oh my God, he might be in trouble, doing something bad." |01:19:37| BRODY: So how did the case turn out? NGUYEN: I think it turned out that we were able to intervene and explain to the Child Protective Services as well as the school, you know, what she did, she didn't know that this is against the law, but she did this because she didn't know what else to do in order to keep the kid at home. So we were willing to provide some education sessions to the mother and as well as to do some prevention counseling with the kid as well, and so I think they dismissed the case because they know that this is not intentionally. BRODY: Not a pattern either. That's interesting, and that ties into one of the other areas that I wanted to ask you what your experience and what you thought. Clearly, you were very educated already at the point that you were a refugee and came to the United States, and then you continued to do work that was in line with your level of education. Have you had any experiences with social class issues--either your own or just people you know are in the community--of refugees who perhaps were of one social class when they were in Vietnam and then came here and either moved up or down, I think more typically to a lower, you know, sort of situation because of language or education differences? |01:21:21| NGUYEN: I--actually, I would say the opposite of that, and what I mean is this: the class system, social class system exists in our country, and if they were still in the country of origin, those refugee kids, the Amerasians, and so forth, would never be able even to talk to anyone of a different higher class, whether they were educated or they have social status or higher ranking officers, officials of the government or what. But when they came here, it's so interesting that there's a reversal of that order, because a lot of the high-ranking, higher class of people, when they came to America, actually they're losing that status, mostly. BRODY: How interesting. NGUYEN: Yeah. Except for the children, definitely, because everyone has the same opportunities, so all those kids would get--they can get a Pell Grant as well as anyone. As a matter of fact, the poor can have a better chance of getting a Pell Grant than the rich one. So they can afford education, so they can look up--I mean, they don't have to look up, they can be very assertive in any situation, they don't have to worry about, you know, "Oh, she used to be a doctor, I've got to respect her," or what. You know, all of that may not matter anymore. However, you know, like I said, the one who used to be in a higher social class and were losing those status because they're old, they couldn't get a job, or whatever that is, became probably more depressed because they're losing their status. But there's not much of that, of the inequality kind of thing that you've seen how people have been treated back in the country of origin, just because of their social status. |01:24:01| BRODY: That's really interesting. Also, another question that I wanted to go back to, you mentioned that your kids took classes, Vietnamese language classes and that the churches and temples sort of ran that. What role did religion play in your experience, either back in Vietnam or coming here and becoming part of the community here in Dallas? NGUYEN: As a matter of fact, when I--back in my country, the religious community is not much a part of our life, mainly because we'd--we were of a faith called "ancestor worship," meaning we prayed to our ancestors, we have an altar in the family and we have a picture of the deceased grandparent, parent or what, and we commemorate their death anniversary, we teach our kids the value that they imparted on us from years, years ago. Morally, it's kind of close to Buddhism than anything. When we came here, as a matter of fact, we became more active in the Buddhist temple, with the Buddhist temple, and that has happened because we were invited by one of the largest Buddhist temples in Garland. The monk there heard about me and he actually came from the same region that I was born and came from, and he asked for my help to figure out the nonprofit status for his temple. So I became his legal advisor even though that's not my profession, (Brody laughs) but you know, I mean, if I created a nonprofit status for Mosaic, then I could figure it out the same way. So I actually was able to help him with that, and then he appointed me to become his advisor, and then so we attend more of their events at the temple, and then he also came and did blessings to our family on all kinds of occasions and so forth. So yeah, that became more of a faith and religious connection that we have and celebrate as well as honor anytime appropriate. When my parents--my father passed away, like, six years ago and my father-in-law also passed away a year after that, both of them were--the memorial services were done through the Buddhist temple, and the monk had run out to the funeral home and did all the blessings and ceremonies there and all of that. So yeah, we became supporters and close to those faiths. And I think it's important, because how children grew up and see and start reading and learning more about Buddhism and so forth, so they'd--they also live out their faith, even though they may not show up in church and temple as much, but both have them have been through some very serious illnesses a couple times. You know, they recovered from that very quickly, but the monk was a part of the healing. He came to pray and so the kids saw and witnessed those moments and they feel that there's a holy leader in their lives, somebody like that really helps with what I call a "divine intervention," (laughs) yeah, in their life. BRODY: Divine intervention, yes. And also a real tangible community to belong to here in town. |01:28:45| NGUYEN: Yeah. It's growing, it's unbelievable in terms of the number of followers and, yeah, it's growing. BRODY: It's part of your story here in Dallas. NGUYEN: Right, yeah, exactly. |01:28:58| BRODY: And the last sort of area that I wanted to hear you talk about because you are such a leader in Dallas today with Mosaic being as active as it is, I wondered if you could share a little bit about what your life is now today, what your job is, and sort of the different work that you do and how it is informed by your own experience as a refugee. NGUYEN: My job--I kind of grew into it and continued to grow from it, almost like by accident, but it's something that I had dreamt about when I landed in America and took that first job. Actually, it's the second job with Lutheran Social Services. There's an area that is not well-explored or highly regarded within my own community and culture, and that is the human service side of profession. You know, you probably heard this already, that Asian--Vietnamese, in my situation--patterns anyone would expect a kid-- engineers, doctors, do something tangible. But behavioral sciences, human services, social work, psychology, people don't see why we do it. First, we may not make a lot of money. Secondly, how does this really help? Because in the culture of origin, and when I did mental health for years and years, we talked about traditional healing versus western medicine, and the idea was, well, western psychology, psychiatrists, unless they prescribe a pill, it's not as good as an herbalist, as an eastern medicine, because they really give you something that you can see or cook and pour and making something out of it. So going to the field that I went to in social work, specializing in mental health was something that I know--from my larger family, not highly regarded, because like, the younger brother that I came with, he became an engineer and then quit engineering and became a doctor. BRODY: Oh really? |01:32:22| NGUYEN: Yeah. And he has a very highly successful practice in Dallas these days. So the only thing that actually my family really highly regarded about me was my language ability, and actually get a PhD, even though it's in a field that people think, "Wow, he doesn't make money," but in the culture really, they like credentials. They also value credentials, you know? When I go out in the community many people still say, call me "Doctor," right? I cannot prescribe prescriptions for people's life. Like "professor," they highly regard that. "Doctor"? Okay. You know? Great. Just a very educated thing, you know? So they regard that. So that's good. But what I do may not be in the community understanding of it or of cultural value of it was highly regarded. But you know, I found--actually, I've found actually it worked out to my benefit in a different way, because when I first came and after I got all my degrees, I found out that, you know, you can find hundreds of doctors, but you couldn't find a social worker or somebody with my experience to do a job that not a lot of people will do. A job that could benefit a lot of people-- BRODY: That's true. You're helping a lot of people. NGUYEN: --that I feel enriching and satisfying as well. And so--and that's why I think when I got my master's and already worked for the county and moved down here and found that job with Challenge and so forth, I suddenly realized this. I said, "You know what? To be competitive or to be known as a newcomer here, I need more credentials." And that's why after I moved to Texas, you know, and initially get in working as executive director of East Dallas Counseling Center, I went back to school at UTA for my doctorate. And I proved myself right, because after I get my doctorate, in every application for grants or anything that I sent and I attached my credentials there, I become more believable. Because if people look at the name, they can almost immediately say, "Should I believe this guy?" Right? Especially since it's a strange name, you know. I mean, that's a fact. We live in a society that discrimination is there to some degree, and in order to be competitive, what do you have to offer that will take you over somebody else? In addition to doing something unique, that's serving a population that nobody else is serving, that's good maybe, or as much as we could do here. I also have that credential that I can convince people that you can trust in me. BRODY: Right. Credibility. |01:36:10| NGUYEN: Yeah, credibility. That's it. So yeah. So I think that's why I found my education, what I do, is very satisfying. Satisfactory for myself, but I think it's very meaningful and that my stress not--I don't have the stress for many people that worry about, "Oh my God, I don't know if I'll even have a job next year or not because it looks like, you know, (unintelligible) for a certain company," or even--for so many people up there, and they make decisions over your life, your income or what. But here, I'm responsible for a lot of lives, and a lot of employees as well. But then I'm responsible for myself too, that whether I am successful or not is up to me. So I have that freedom, the onus and the responsibility of me to do what I need to do to live up to my, you know, expectations and desires. |01:37:33| BRODY: That's great. Well, it's a very inspiring story, so thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else that you wanted to revisit, or anything that I might've missed in asking you? Or anything that you think people in the future might want to know about your experience? NGUYEN: You know, I think I covered a lot already. I think my very last point that you asked there, really, I cannot overemphasize, and I keep telling a lot of people. Because there are people in the community who actually went to me and asked this question: they say, "Hey, I'm creating this organization, I want to do exactly what you do. I love it." You know, actually I--there was a professor from UTA, he's Korean, and he came here a couple years ago. He taught research at graduate school, and he's from Korea. And he just loved what I do here, and he asked me once, he said, "You know what, Walter? I want to do exactly what you're doing." But, he ended up didn't do that, you know, and then he quit his job and he returned to his country. So what I'm saying here is this: for those who share the same experience as me, being from another country, arriving in America, not born here and want to explore a field that may be not popular in their country, in their cultural heritage or values or what, they have to find where their niche is going to be, and what is their asset, what they can offer that could be competitive for them to get a foot in the door for whatever they want to do. Now, my theory was this: in order to obtain certain things that you want, that somebody who are white, who are born here or with a credential that you have, you have to obtain a little higher one in order to be considered equal. So that's just my-- BRODY: Your observation. NGUYEN: --yeah, my observation. And I think--I don't know if it'll work with other people, you know, but in my situation I think it works. It is meaningful, because you know, I haven't talked to you about what--East Dallas Counseling Center has expanded ten times compared to when it started, and much of the growth during the early years was because--and I'm as humble as an Asian person, I would never speak it in a bragging way--and that was: I helped create a lot of different things so that we can get our name out and be equal with other similar organizations, and one of the hardest things that I remember that took place, that really transformed Mosaic, and that was we became a member of the United Way. BRODY: That's interesting. |01:41:14| NGUYEN: And that happened in the year 1999. I wrote a letter to United Way of Metropolitan Dallas, and I asked them if they would ever consider accepting another member or not. No answer. And a year after that, that's when they opened a new round, accepting some new agencies after almost ten years of freezing. So immediately I applied on behalf of East Dallas Counseling Center. Among two hundred agencies that applied, we went through a strenuous, very unbelievable, difficult process of vetting, including so many presentations and hearings. And I remember, I defended all the questions as though I'm defending my thesis. And I was able, along with the board that I created, navigated all of the vetting process and we successfully were accepted as one of the nine new agencies to the United Way out of two hundred. BRODY: Wow, that's amazing. NGUYEN: And that opened the door for us, because that's the first time after ten years they ever accepted a new agency, but because with the application United Way, they provided us the first unrestricted funding of $75,000 for me to hire a development director who was able to write grants. Whereas before that I'm the only one who wrote, and we were able to, within one year of receiving that money, open the first shelter for immigrants and refugee women. BRODY: Wow. Well that is an amazing accomplishment at the end of a long road. NGUYEN: Right. So I think that's the one that I think really opened the door. BRODY: Yeah I think so, it sounds like it. Well thank you so much for your time and for sharing your story. It's such an important story and you're an inspiring person to interview, so thank you very much Dr. Nguyen. NGUYEN: Well, thank you for the opportunity, I love to share the story and hope that it gives some insight to the journey. BRODY: It absolutely did. Thank you so much. NGUYEN: Okay. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Nguyen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2018oh003_btba_001 https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/7383a30312f65281bf41369d04017b8b.jpg 6cf7a17d660fb405b8b941a66c3b3b71 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Portrait of Dai Pham by Byrd Williams, IV Description An account of the resource In this photograph, Dai Pham is holding a photograph of herself (at age two) and her father taken just prior to their departure from Vietnam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Byrd Williams, IV Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dai Pham Schroeder OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Dai Pham Schroeder, June 30, 2019 2019oh012_btba_012 1:16:44 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Dai Pham Schroeder Betsy Brody mp3 oh-interviews_schroeder-d_2019-06-30_bdg_acc.mp3 1:|27(6)|47(12)|64(4)|76(14)|86(7)|115(4)|134(15)|149(14)|164(16)|178(4)|200(4)|218(9)|231(6)|245(4)|259(16)|276(11)|293(7)|317(14)|334(10)|352(4)|368(6)|380(1)|400(1)|421(6)|434(13)|455(11)|471(1)|489(3)|503(10)|519(12)|536(2)|558(8)|573(17)|587(2)|607(9)|623(6)|641(5)|653(12)|672(2)|686(7)|708(3)|725(12)|742(5)|756(2)|776(3)|796(2)|809(15)|823(1)|839(2)|854(5)|868(10)|883(9)|894(12)|914(10)|929(1)|946(11)|962(5)|976(5)|994(11)|1018(3)|1029(8)|1043(1)|1055(1)|1070(13)|1087(11)|1103(2)|1115(16)|1133(15)|1159(4)|1185(13)|1214(6)|1231(6)|1244(2)|1259(2)|1271(12)|1284(13) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117361 Aviary audio 0 Interview Introduction BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 30, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mrs. Dai Schroeder. This interview is taking place at Mrs. Schroeder’s home in Addison, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the “Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans” project. Thank you so much for meeting me and letting me interview you Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans 25 Childhood Memories To start out with, tell me about what you remember of your life in Vietnam. SCHROEDER: Actually, I don’t remember any of my life in Vietnam. I came when I was two, so there is zero recollection of Vietnam. BRODY: So what are your first memories of—at all? SCHROEDER: I guess the only memory I have coming or migrating here—this is totally random. We were on the plane. I think I was two at the time, my brother was three, and I remember my brother asking where the bathroom was, and that is the only recollection as a childhood during that time. BRODY: Have you pieced that together? Where was the plane going? Where were you coming from? SCHROEDER: No, but I assume that that would be on the flight to America because I think that was our only plane trip since we left the country. |00:01:14| BRODY: Where did your family land? SCHROEDER: Gosh. I think I have to talk to my dad. Was it in—believe it was in Arkansas is where we landed, because that’s where—we came here and then we were—I think we were sponsored by a church here in Richardson, but I can’t remember if they sponsored us. I think they sponsored while we were still in—what was it? Where were we? There was some island that we were at where all the refugees were, and I can’t remember if they sponsored us from there and then we went to Arkansas and then came, and there’s, maybe, some orientation or training-type stuff before we came to the States, but—yeah. It was probably to Arkansas. Or you know what? Maybe it could’ve been the flight from Arkansas from Dallas. I’m not sure which one it was. BRODY: In any case, you were so young that it makes sense that you wouldn’t remember all of that. What are your first memories, then, just as a child, unrelated even, to your experiences getting here? SCHROEDER: Well, as far as—I guess I remember more of once we were in Richardson or moved to where we were going to be. I don’t even remember what age I was. It’s all childhood. It’s all the same memory. And the order in which I’m remembering this—I don’t know which came first. It’s not a linear order. I remember we went to church every Sunday. I’m sure it’s with the First Presbyterian Church of Richardson. So the folks—I guess there’s a bunch of families that sponsored us, so they probably—we went to, maybe, Sunday school? I don’t remember anything about Sunday school, but I remember that we were somewhere else while the parents were in the service. I remember they did put us into a preschool. I can’t remember the preschool. I remember the exact location. I mean, we drive by it every day. It’s off Belt Line [Road], and it’s between Hillcrest [Road] and Preston [Road], and I believe there is now a Jewish church there, but there’s a little—and it wasn’t a big church. It’s a little house or whatever. That was the preschool. And people who know me now to this day, and even then, I was afraid of dogs, and I vividly remember this one lady—because the ladies at the church were the ones that drove us to preschool every day, because my mom didn’t drive. My dad couldn’t take me. He was working. And so she would come pick up, and she had this little dog sitting in the car, and so every day I’m just fearful, in the car with this dog, going to preschool. So I vividly remember that incident. I remember stories from preschool where, I guess, the teachers would ask me some—I don’t know. I would come home crying, and I guess I didn’t know why. I guess maybe I was trying to communicate with them in Vietnamese or something. My mom didn’t know what it was, so I guess there was incidences of that. And then my mom would say, “Oh, yeah, you were—they needed something and you didn’t know what it was,” so there was a communication at a young age and, I guess, the frustration of that. I remember one time—the school was small. I remember there was probably two or three rooms in the building ; at least that’s all I remember. Walk into this one room, when I went to the wrong room on accident. It was an empty room. It had a big floor-to-ceiling mirror, and I think it was the first time I exposed to a mirror. I’m not sure, (laughs) but I looked at it. I freaked out, like, “Who is that?” Then when I moved, this other image moved with me, so I’m like, “What is that?” So I think I kept it inside. I was really scared of that room for quite some time, but it was because of that mirror. I mean, now that I know what it is, it was really just a mirror, but it was floor-to-ceiling, for this little two-year-old who never experienced that before. So I remember that. So yeah, those were—I guess some of those memories all fell into the preschool. I don’t know why that’s stuck in my head. Recounts childhood memories of migrating from Vietnam to America, attending church, and attending preschool. America ; Arkansas ; church ; Dallas ; First Presbyterian Church of Richardson ; leaving Vietnam ; refugees ; Richardson ; sponsors ; Texas ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War 306 Family Dynamics BRODY: You've mentioned that your dad was working and your mom still wasn’t proficient in English. How did that come about? What was your dad doing? SCHROEDER: At that age, I probably didn’t know, just in talking to him later. I guess at the time he was a security guard, but as far as at that younger age, I wasn’t that involved in what they were doing to—you know. BRODY: Did you have siblings? SCHROEDER: I did. I have—okay. I have a brother. He’s a year older, so we basically were each other’s rock, I guess, or you can call it that. So at that time, there’s just the two of us. BRODY: Right. And was he in the same preschool? SCHROEDER: He was, but I don’t remember him—we weren’t in the same class, so he wasn’t there to (Brody laughs) be my rock in those moments of when I’m on my own. BRODY: So the sponsor families, were they part of your life for the whole time that you were growing up? SCHROEDER: I think they were very involved with our family, and I think when we came to America there was eleven of us, my brother and I being the youngest, and the rest of them were—because it was my grandfather and my grandmother, and then my brother and half of his siblings, and then us, so they—I think they were more involved with my aunts and uncles. They were more of the grade school age and middle school age. We were just little preschoolers. They were involved in the sense that they put us in preschool, they took us to school, stuff like that, but as far as everything else, I think they were probably more involved with them, or if they were involved with me, I don’t remember. Discusses the position of family members as well as the role sponsor families played. employment ; family ; jobs ; preschool ; school ; siblings ; sponsor ; sponsors 403 Schooling BRODY: Right. You were very young. So you got here, you went to preschool and at some point, I guess you went to elementary school, right? How was that? SCHROEDER: I don’t remember. At this point, I think we felt like we were just—we did what was the next step, right? But I do remember—I just know that we grew up—I mean, my mom worked really hard to try to assimilate us. I can—looking back, I know it was a step for her. I remember when it was our birthday and she would make a cake. I don’t think she ever made a cake before, you know? I think that was because everyone did it, and you bake a cake, and you blow a candle. I don’t think they did that back then in Vietnam, so that was something new for her. And you know, I mean, bless her heart, it was like—it wasn’t the best cake in the world, but she tried. I think that was something different that when we came here. I remember in school when they said, Oh, you need to bring something for your child’s birthday, and my favorite dessert was creampuffs, but I guess back in nineteen—how old would I have been at five? So if I was ’73—so 1978, so I was in kindergarten, so my mom would make my creampuffs that I love so much and would bring it to school. And I just remember the reaction of all the kids, like, Ew, what is this? They didn’t even touch it. They seemed so disgusted by it. They didn’t even try it, because it’s—I mean, they’re kids, and I think in today’s world, people are more open to trying more ethnic and cultural foods. Back in 1978, I don’t think that was the case. I mean, people were like, Ew, what is that? So I never had my mom bake creampuffs ever again for school! (laughs) I mean, because it was kind of like—I was kind of embarrassed, like, Okay, we didn’t bring the normal cupcakes, and what was wrong with us? We brought this cream. So I think my mom was doing what I—she knew what I liked, but then culturally or within the school, the kids—I mean, kids are kids, right? Discusses schooling in America. assimilation ; birthday parties ; creampuffs ; culture ; immigrant ; school 517 Culture and sexism BRODY: Did you experience a lot of that, of trying to navigate how to be, as you said, normal, and sort of your home life or being different? SCHROEDER: Yes and no. I think part of it came naturally. Part of it was just kind of— and I think with anybody, whether it was a—coming to America as an immigrant, I’m sure that people who live here have their own battles and struggles too, so whether it was a result of being an immigrant or the cultural difference, or it was just part of childhood, growing up. So based on the experiences that come about—you know, social cues—you kind of react a certain way. Whether those social cues, like I said, are based on cultural differences, I don’t know. But, I mean, yeah, there’s things like—there’s been differences growing up. I mean, as later in life, it’s like—we had friends ; friends would sleep over. They had slumber parties and stuff like that. Well, my mom was like, “Nope.” And it was kind of a double standard. I mean, I guess in America, we’re so—everyone’s conscious of the individual and treating everyone the same. Well, you know what? Vietnamese, back then—I don’t know—boys and girls are treated differently. Boys can do certain things that girls can’t do, and there’s no—I grew up. I felt kind of like in a sexist world where my older brother, who’s only one year older—he gets to go over to people’s sleepovers, slumber parties, have all this fun, and guess what? I can’t. And what’s the reason? “You’re a girl.” That is the only reason. There was no other reason. And then all my other friends could, so I remember slumber parties, my mom was like, “Oh, yes, you can go, but we’ll pick you up at ten o’clock,” and so I’d go and they’d pick me up at ten. So that was a difference compared to all the other girls that were there. BRODY: (both speaking at once) What were they afraid of, in your opinion? SCHROEDER: Oh, girls don’t sleep at other people’s house. It’s just this—there’s not afraid of anything. It’s just, “Girls do not sleep at other people’s houses,” period. BRODY: But your brother did all those things. Okay. SCHROEDER: Oh, yes. I could have a friend sleep over, but I could never do it. I could have one friend sleep over, so my best friend growing up—she would be the one that would sleep over, but I never could sleep at anyone else’s house. And to me, I didn’t see the big deal, and then I saw it as, “Yes, great, I can go and stay until ten,” but it seems like all the stories I heard the next day, all the fun stuff happened at late night when you’re laying down! And the stories over the next morning at breakfast, that’s when all the—you know? And so I felt I kind of missed out on that, but I mean, as a kid growing up, you’re just kind of like, “Wow. Why can’t I do these things, especially if he can do it?” So that’s probably where I’ve—that difference is, and my brother didn’t care because he was able to do what he wanted to do, so he wasn’t up to bat for me. (laughs) Recounts the double standards placed on her and Pham-Schroeder's brother's lives. childhood ; cultural differences ; double standards ; equality ; friendships ; immigrants ; immigration ; sexism ; sleepovers ; slumber parties 693 Grade School BRODY: What was grade school like for you here as a—having recently learned English and sort of adjusting to—having the whole family adjust to life in the United States? SCHROEDER: I don’t think mine was any different than anyone else growing up, because since I came at two, I was so young. So by the time I went to grade school, my English was like anybody else’s, so I don’t think I had any language barrier. So that piece, I felt was fine. I mean, academically, fine. Learning was fine. I just remember stories of handwriting and stuff. We would write real nice. I remember one story where I was in school and this teacher—I think I had great handwriting, but she would come and try to correct the way I had my paper. It was kind of on the side instead of straight— horizontal, and she would come and try to make it right, and I couldn’t write. I’m like, “I need to turn it.” And so she finally just figured out that, “Okay, we’ll let you write this way.” I would tell my mom the story. She goes, “You know what? You’re lucky because in Vietnam back then, if you’re left-handed, they would sit there and hit your hand and force you write right-handed.” So even with the stories, there was just more flexibility in America. That teacher finally learned, “Hey, she can write. She can do fine. We’re not going to force this and make it worse,” but just knowing culturally, elsewhere, that my mom is like, “That’s not a big deal. I mean, you can adapt to that.” So it’s like, we should be able to adapt better, because in Vietnam they’re forced to conform to the standards of the way things should be done. Talks about the differences in teaching in America and Vietnam. adapting ; elementary school ; English ; handwriting ; language ; language barrier ; language learning ; learning English 797 Assimilation BRODY: With your parents, it sounds like your mom really wanted you guys to assimilate and helped you in that way. Were there examples of you and your brother maybe sort of educating your parents about how things are here, because you were in school? SCHROEDER: You know, if there was, I don’t remember. I think my parents probably did the best they could. I just knew there were times—I remember in grade school when they did gymnastics. Friends were taking gymnastics classes, but I never asked my parents of that because I knew we couldn’t afford it, so what’s the point of asking for something—because they were trying to raise us—and so there are things that I wanted to do, but I knew we just never would ask for it. I remember going to the grocery store and going, “Mom, can I have some Pockys(??)?” “No, you can’t have that. We can’t_______(??).” So I knew off the bat, of what to ask of them and what not, so we really didn’t ask much. We just knew it was expected of us to go to school, do well, don’t get in trouble, and that’s what we did. And so I guess knowing what the expectation was or not to bother them with any more burdens, we didn’t—the brain never went further to try to go, “Okay, what about this, this, and this?” We just did what was kind of expected. Recounts the lack of money and understanding of what was expected as a child. assimilation ; childhood ; money ; school 880 Food BRODY: Right. So at home, tell me about your food life, right? Did your mom cook a lot of Vietnamese food still or did she move into cooking American food? SCHROEDER: You know, it’s so funny that you mention that, because I didn’t even think about that until now. She cooked Vietnamese food a lot, but I remember there was—as we got in middle school, my aunt—she learned how to make spaghetti and meat sauce. Oh my gosh! Then Mom learned how to make that, so that was what she made, and my mom would sit there—I was kind of a picky eater, you know, and I would tell her, “I’m not hungry.” She goes, “There is a whole table full of food. You’re not eating,” and all I wanted to eat was probably spaghetti, meatballs, and pizza! So we did have that once in a while, but that would be—I know spaghetti meat is not the American food, but that’s not Vietnamese food, so that was the one meal that was not Vietnamese, but then along comes the day of learning about Velveeta cheese and SPAM, and we thought that was delicatessen! (both laugh) Looking back now, I’m like, Maybe it was best that we stuck with Vietnamese food, but back then, I remember my mom goes, “Oh, I was at a friend’s house and they had this, and this stuff’s really good!” So she goes and buys SPAM, and cooks it. I’m like, “Wow, this is the best thing over!” So the things that we got into with the American culture that I laugh at now was probably more of the processed food and not real foods, but that’s when we kind of went away from the Vietnamese food. As a grown up now, I kind of wish I would have stuck more with it—I mean, because now I want the Vietnamese food and Mom doesn’t make it anymore because there’s not a house full of kids and people. BRODY: What were your favorite things that your mom cooked growing up? SCHROEDER: Oh, gosh. I remember it changed. At one time, it was Bun Rieu, which is kind of like a rice noodle soup that had crab meat and eggs and stuff, and then later, it became pho, but the beef pho, and things like that. Oh, but I remember—oh, this is even a better story. When I was a kid—and this may sound disgusting for those here—my mom would make pork feet, and she would caramelize this really good. I didn’t know what I was eating and I loved it, until one day I grew up and I realized what it was. I was so disgusted, I never ate it again! (Brody laughs) Only because I knew what it was, the thought of what it was—but that was one of my favorite until I realized that—what I was eating. BRODY: What was that called? SCHROEDER: I was—well, khô—it’s kind of, like, the way you cook it, so I don’t know. Heo khô, but it was the foot, but I never—it was just— BRODY: So that was an end to your— SCHROEDER: It was an end, because I liked that collagen and all—but now, thinking about that—it’s sometimes best to not know what you’re eating if you’re enjoying it. (laughs) BRODY: Did your mom teach you how to cook Vietnamese food? SCHROEDER: I think she tried. My mom is very much a perfectionist, so I remember growing up, and girls were supposed to learn how to cook and what have you. I did a lot of mincing garlic and stuff for all her marinades, but as far as chopping and cutting, I think she tried, and it’s like, “Oh, it wasn’t cut thin enough and it’s not the same size,” and so I just learned to—if she don’t like it—if Dad’s running somewhere, I just kind of jumped and I’d go, “Oh, Dad! Where are you going?” I’d just hop on with him before Mom can stop me and keep me in the kitchen. But I wish I would have stuck it through and learned some more of those Vietnamese dishes and cuisines—but no, she tried. BRODY: Do you cook now—Vietnamese food? SCHROEDER: I do. I remember, when I started going back to that it was in college, and I’m like, “Remember how to make that gâ kho?” which is a caramelized fish or whatever, and it’s made with fish sauce and it really—fish sauce, if you’re not used to the smell, it really—a lot of people don’t like it. The funniest story is in college I’m like, “Mom, how do you make that?” So I would—so I made it one time, and it turned out good. I mean, in my mind, I thought it tasted great. Mom was like, “Oh, it’s missing this, this, and this,” but to me, eighty-twenty, I got the gist of the flavor, it’s all good. And my roommate in college, she would walk in and go, “What are you making? That stuff really stinks!” I’d go, “It’s gâ kho. You’ll like it. I mean, trust me.” So I did—she tried this, “Oh my God, this is the best thing!” And so when her parents came to visit during parents’ weekend, she’s like, “Oh, Mom, Mom, Mom! You’ve got to have this!” She goes, “It stinks so bad, but it’s so good!” I had this other friend in college who’s Vietnamese, and we had the challenge with roommates—because we both had a non-Vietnamese roommate—in trying to convert them to eating some Vietnamese food, so that— BRODY: Did it work? SCHROEDER: Like I said, especially gâ kho and some other dishes. I didn’t make a lot. I asked my mom, “How do you make egg rolls?” And so I attempted to make this stuff, and what I’ve learned is that a lot of these foods are very labor-intensive, and it’s—now I know why, when we’re growing up, the aunts and the moms are sitting there in the kitchen all day, and it tastes really good, but when I try to make it myself, I’m like, “This really takes a lot of time. Is the labor worth the treat?” I finally go, “You know what?” For me, it wasn’t worth it. I can just go buy it at the Vietnamese restaurant down the street. Maybe not as good as Mom’s, but surely better than wasting all the time to prep all that. So I did learn and get the recipes of some of them, but the only Vietnamese food I do make is the one that I kind of dumbed it down to the basics to keep it simple, but to make it the true authentic way was too much labor than what I really had the time to do. Talks about favorite Vietnamese dishes, learning to cook from Pham-Schroeder's mother, and cooking in college. American food ; Bum Rieu ; cook ; cookikng ; cuisines ; egg rolls ; food ; gâ kho ; khô ; meatballs ; pho ; pizza ; pork feet ; spaghetti ; Spam ; Vietnamese food 1227 Childhood activities BRODY: Right. Well, let’s backtrack and go back to school age. Tell me about your childhood and moving on into middle school and high school. What did you do? What were you involved in? SCHROEDER: Okay. This is where I’m, maybe, atypical, because I consider myself kind of like the black sheep of the Vietnamese girl. As much as I couldn’t do certain things, I was really—I hung out with my brother a lot. We lived in the apartments and all played outside with the kids in the neighborhood, and they were all boys, so I hung out with boys and I was pretty much a tomboy. As you can tell from my mom and my parents, they’re more traditional, so having a girl that more of a tomboy, who’s not doing the girly things, that may have been not up their alley. So I remember in third grade, I played soccer, and so—and then, that was one year, then my mom was like, “I’m not doing this drive, and girls don’t play soccer.” And so I remember—so I still played soccer. Not formal organized sports, but I played soccer in the backyard with all the neighborhood boys and my brother, and so I learned to play street soccer, I guess you could call it. I remember when I—so that’s only soccer, and I really enjoyed that, and when we went to high school, you can try out for sports, and I knew I couldn’t try for the other sports ; one, because they all would require—I mean—and I’m looking back now, I didn’t realize. I mean, the school does provide the uniforms, but there’s certain things that required parental expenses, so there’s other sports that I couldn’t do. Well, guess what? Soccer didn’t really require that. They give you a uniform and you go and play, so I tried out for the soccer team and, at first—so I got cut. So they didn’t have enough players for a JV team, and I didn’t make the varsity team—so this is ninth grade—and by luck of the universe, they told the coach, You cannot cut people. You need to create a JV team. So he created a junior varsity soccer team. BRODY: And this was at Richardson? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) This was at Richardson High School. And so I played. My brother goes, “Okay,” so my brother watched me play, and the first thing his advice was, “Okay. I saw you playing out there. You were playing like a girl. You need to play soccer the way you play with us.” And so he goes, “Stop playing like a girl, and play the way you play when we’re out there playing soccer.” So I started doing that, and so even by the end of the year, I made the varsity team. I got bumped up or whatever. I mean, it wasn’t—but it’s like—but I did. That was the sport that I did because—I’ve said, the awareness of what we would afford or not. I just didn’t want to add any expectation, so I did soccer, did well in school, made the Honor Society—the usual suspects, but I feel like back then a lot of the Vietnamese kids did that. We all knew kind of what our role— school had an agenda. It’s to graduate, to get to college, to make a living, to support yourself, and so that was always the initial agenda. Discusses playing soccer with neighborhood boys as well as breaking the norms of what was expected. childhood ; education ; gender ; high school ; junior high ; middle school ; Richardson High School ; school ; Soccer ; sports ; Tomboy 1407 Family Friends and Activities BRODY: Right. So you mentioned a lot of the Vietnamese kids. Was there a large Vietnamese community that you were involved in? SCHROEDER: No, I wasn’t so much. I think my parents—I know growing up they had their friends, so we had some friends that we grew up as family friends. BRODY: Did they mostly live in Richardson? SCHROEDER: They didn’t live in Richardson. Some of them lived in, like, Garland or whatever. I remember one of the friends that we really hung out with, both my brother and I, with his family, they—I remember in middle school, all of a sudden, it was like, “Wow. Why is Mom and Dad hanging out with the parents, and why aren’t we going along anymore?” I mean, when we grew up, it was like a close family-knit weekends and stuff. And so I guess at that point, during that time, there was a lot of Vietnamese gangs that were brewing and in the neighborhood, so I guess—later found out they got caught up in the gang, and that’s when my parents kind of segregated us because they didn’t want us to get involved in that. At that point, we didn’t know what’s going on. We’re like, Why aren’t we hanging out with them anymore? Why aren’t we going with them? So my parents—so there’s a lot of kids getting into wrong, so they did the helicopter parenting and kind of, you know, We don’t want to get into in this mess, we don’t want to expose them. So they kind of did their own separation to keep us out. And within the school community there were a few Vietnamese, but I don’t think there was tons like some schools. I think back then, Richardson—I was at Richardson High School. I think Berkner had more of the Vietnamese community than Richardson, but the ones that were in Richardson—I mean, I think we all kind of intermingled just fine within the school, culturally, so I don’t— BRODY: Were there functions that your family attended, or—you mentioned that you went to the church and continued going to the church. Was that something that you stayed involved in as a family? SCHROEDER: No. I think that kind of died down, probably more in middle school. I think at that point, I think my mom did appreciate what the church did for us, but her true calling was probably Buddhism, and so I think at that point, more—there were some temples that were coming up, so I think she started going more to that, but that was more of her personal thing. Dad’s more not as religious, and so, no, we weren’t as involved. BRODY: And so as kids, you didn’t— SCHROEDER: Not so much. Yeah. I think Mom did what she needed to do, but as far as—she’s really—I think she kind of watched not to get integrated so much, and this, that, and the other. I think a lot of the families that we knew—that they knew that more of the Catholic families probably were more involved in the community with the churches and stuff like that, but my mom kind of was more of stand-back kind of person ; didn’t want to—kind of kept her distance, I think, for whatever reason. Discusses the Vietnamese community, family friends, and the families religion. Berkner High School ; Buddhism ; Catholic ; church ; churches ; gangs ; Garland ; middle school ; religion ; Richardson ; Richardson High School ; Vietnamese community 1576 Gangs BRODY: That’s interesting. So the gangs that you were talking about before, what kind of—do you remember? Can you tell me what they were doing? SCHROEDER: Oh, yeah. So we knew families, like some of my parents’ friends. I mean, they would rob. I guess they would rob. Basically, everyone that they—the gangs would basically target other Vietnamese families, so they don’t target people outside the Vietnamese community. They would target a Vietnamese family, rob them, or do whatever, and they would threaten them that, If you report this, then we’re going to kill this other member of your family, so they kind of knew the ins and outs of everybody. They would rob people in their weddings—their wedding days. There was people getting shot. I mean, so a lot of this stuff was going on, but it was really under the radar, from what I understand—but like I said, because a lot of them were threatening that, If you say anything or report or whatever, we will target your family members. BRODY: Wow. That sounds really scary, actually. What do you think drove those people into that type of life? SCHROEDER: I don’t know. I don’t know. But I think they were targeting the younger kids. Maybe a sense of belonging? I’m not sure, because I think when parents came to America, a lot of them—both parents were working. Lot of the moms—so everyone’s working, and those teenage years, you never know. They’re easily influenced. Discuss the tactics and influence of Vietnamese gangs. belonging ; crime ; gangs ; murder ; poverty ; robbery ; Vietnamese gangs 1670 Housing BRODY: Right. Earlier when you were talking about soccer, you mentioned that you guys lived in an apartment initially. Tell me about your experience in housing. Did you— how long did you stay in the apartment? SCHROEDER: Okay. So from what I recall, when we first came to America, the church helped sponsored us and got us a place to live, an apartment for all eleven of us. I think it was, like, a three-bedroom apartment. So it was like—my grandparents got a room. I think my family, the four of us, and then all the other siblings—so I think they helped us the first month or two, and kind of get us started with donations and things like that. At that point, they kind of helped my dad and grandfather find a job, and at that point, you’re kind of left to take care of yourself. So I think we all stayed together for a while, and then at some point—I don’t know when, I don’t remember what age I was—we moved into our own apartment—my parents—my family of four. We got a two-bedroom apartment right around the corner in a different complex not too far from there. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Where was—still Richardson. SCHROEDER: It was still in Richardson. It was over there in—no. Well, it’s over there off, like, Spring Valley [Road] and Whatever, and the address—I remember the address: 8636 Lazy Acre Circle. That’s where we lived, and I think at some point, my grandparents probably got into, maybe, some government housing, and so they moved further away. In retrospect, it’s really not that far now that I’m driving, but so it was like—it was my grandparents and then the siblings—or my dad’s siblings. There was four of them, and so they stayed with my grandparents, and like I said, my parents and I were in our place, and then as well as my aunt, who kind of was—I call her my aunt, but she kind of—she was adopted by my parents, so she was kind of like a child laborer in Vietnam that was there to play with us and help out with the kids, so she came to America with us, so she chose to come with us. When I say “our family of four,” it was the four of us plus her. And so my grandparents lived somewhere else—not too far, still in Dallas. And then I think I was in fourth or fifth grade where we moved into the house that they’re at now. That was a big thing for them that, Hey, we made something of ourselves and we were able to put money away to buy a house. The funny thing is, their biggest thing was, We want to buy in a good school district, and in their mind, all they knew was Richardson, and Richardson’s a good school district, so they just wanted to make sure they buy in a Richardson school district, so that was their focus on where we’re buying a home. BRODY: That’s a huge accomplishment to have come and started from scratch and buy a home, right? The American dream. Tell me about that house and the neighborhood and how moving into the house changed your life. SCHROEDER: My parents—it wasn’t far from where we were. I guess it was kind of neat because at that point my aunt has already moved out and so it was just my parents, and then I got my own room and my brother got his own room. So that was kind of a neat thing, like, Oh, we have our own rooms! So that was—I think that’s all I really recall. BRODY: How’d you decorate your room? SCHROEDER: Okay. The whole decorating thing—that’s not part of the—there was no decorating, really. I mean, it’s kind of like, “Hey, I got my own room,” which is more than enough, right? So really, it’s just your bed—and oh, I remember shopping for a desk, and so that was a big thing, is I get to pick my own desk. I got one of those with the rolling tops. (laughs) Now that I look back, it was kind of hideous, but I really liked it back then. And then my brother picked out his, so our big purchase for the room was probably our desk for school, and as you can tell, education was really big for my parents. Discusses childhood housing. American dream ; apartments ; church ; Dallas ; employment ; government housing ; home owndership ; houses ; housing ; Richardson ; sponsors ; Spring Valley Road 1901 Growing up with an immigrant family BRODY: How did they communicate that to you, that education was your priority? What were—when you think about that? SCHROEDER: You know, I don’t even know. I just think that it was embedded in us. We just kind of knew. We just kind of knew that this is—you go to school, you make good grades, you do this, and you—and that’s how you go to college and make a better living, I guess. BRODY: Do you feel like you had a pretty typical American childhood? SCHROEDER: No. There was nothing typical about it. I mean, I felt like I was caged. I mean, for me—and you know what—and it’s—but not really. I mean caged in a sense like, hey, everyone can do this, everyone can do—you know, and I had my guidelines of what I could and couldn’t do. We had our expectations, which is probably normal for most people—like, you know, we got up on Saturday mornings, mowed the lawn, weed the grass, we did the dishes, we did the—but that was our role in the house. Mom and Dad had to go to work, make a living. That’s their time of rest. Dinners, we cook and clean. I remember cleaning the bathrooms, vacuuming—those were just kind of all the normal things that we had to do, but looking back, I’m grateful for that because part of life isn’t just about school and isn’t just about your work, it’s about also maintaining the daily functions that keep things nice and orderly. If you don’t do your part, everything becomes a mess. But like I said, the sleepovers, the parties, the slumber parties, the—and things that I had to learn all on my own. If I look back, it’s like when I went to junior high. There was a couple girls that, “Oh, we’re trying out for athletics!” “What’s athletics?” I didn’t know that. I just got the schedule. “Here, you sign up for these classes, and then you do PE.” I think if I knew then something differently, I probably would’ve tried out for athletics. I think there’s some things that we had to learn with the limited knowledge—we did the next steps of what’s being provided, but I think all the extra stuff I was unaware of. But that’s to be said. Some people just kind of know more about the system, what goes on, and others didn’t, but we did what we knew. So there’s things I would’ve done. I may have tried out for athletics. I may have done these other things. BRODY: So high school in Richardson during the 1980s—what was that—can you describe what you remember of that time? SCHROEDER: Um—(pauses to think) BRODY: How did you spend your time? SCHROEDER: Yeah. My time was so boring. (Brody laughs) Like I said, I played soccer, had friends from that. I didn’t go to a prom or any of the dances because you’re not supposed to. I didn’t go to football games because Mom was like, “You’re not going to go to a football game. What if you get shot? Some gangs are there.” So she’s really—I think part of this, I wouldn’t say, is a cultural thing. I think part of it is the type of parents I had. She was just overly protective in that regard, so I’m going to account that to her personality, versus my—a cultural thing, because I had friends who could that were Vietnamese—could do these things. But no, I did what I was supposed to do. That’s why soccer was my outlet, because guess what? I have to go to a soccer game. “Sorry Mom, got to go. We’ll be home later.” That was kind of like my outlet to get out the door, and it was related to school, so I could do that. I can’t remember which organizations I was in, but just doing all the things—the protocol stuff that school required, but really nothing extra outside of that. Recounts childhood education, as well as role in her family. American Dream ; assimilation ; Athletics ; Childhood ; chores ; College ; Education ; expectations ; high school ; immigrants ; School ; success 2130 College Application and College BRODY: Given that your parents didn’t go to college in this country, how did you navigate the sort of getting in and figuring out where you wanted to go to college? I mean, you’d worked hard in your grades, but how did you figure out what to do next after high school? SCHROEDER: There wasn’t much thought process into that. I mean, my uncles were older, so they just went through. One went to UT [University of Texas], one went to [Texas] A&amp ; M. My brother was already at UT. So I didn’t think much more about where I wanted to go, or we didn’t do college visits or anything like that. It was pretty much, like, the next step. Like, here you went from junior high to high school, and the next step was probably going to be UT. Why? Because it’s familiar. My uncle went there. My brother went there. It was the familiar thing to do, and UT had that, what, top whatever percent gets in, so really, there—I didn’t have to navigate the SATs and all that. I got automatic admissions, so it was pretty much the next step. The thought process? There wasn’t much. It was kind of the next thing to do, which sounds kind of not very exciting, but it is what it is, right? BRODY: It is exciting to go to college, so what—did your parents take you? Did you just— SCHROEDER: Oh, no. No. They didn’t. It was pretty—I remember—like I said, my brother was already there, so my uncles did provide some guidance. They were saying, Okay, if you guys take some of this community college and do it there, so we did. After I graduated from high school, that summer I did take some college at Richland College, like the English classes or whatever, just to knock those out, and we—my brother and I— I remember leaving. I was excited to go to college, and put our stuff in the car, and then we drove off, and that’s it. Parents didn’t come. My parent’s didn’t come with me. They never moved me in, ever. So went off to college, we moved in a dorm, moved myself in, my brother moved himself in, and that was that. And I guarantee—then that’s when the sadness hits, and not in the sense of that. It’s just kind of like, Oh my gosh, because you’re in a new place, new people, and you haven’t formed your people yet. I came back and visited the next month, and I was bawling leaving. I was like, Oh my gosh! But after the first semester, you’re fine. But they never came to UT ever while I was there in the four years, but my friends who were there that I met—parents’ weekend, I hung out with them and their families, so I was kind of like the adopted child because Dai’s parents aren’t there, (laughs) but they didn’t—that just wasn’t them, right. It’s like, that was the next step. You go. But they did show up on graduation day when I graduated, so that’s the first time they were there for me when I was in college. There were there for my brother when he graduated, went to graduation, and then went to my graduation, but that’s—otherwise, they were never there my whole college years. BRODY: What did you study? SCHROEDER: I studied pharmacy, but that’s kind of a funny story. I tell the kids this story all the time. I actually got into the business school, which is what I was going to do, and like I said, I have an older brother who thinks I’m always trying to follow in his footsteps. So one day he goes, “Oh, you’re going to go to business school? Why do you always do everything I do and follow in my footsteps?” I’m like, “Oh, seriously?” So being me, that kind of rebellious—you know, that trait that I had, I was like, “Fine. Then, I won’t go to business school.” Knowing now, I should’ve stuck with business school and taken the pre-pharmacy school as electives, and then applied to pharmacy school, but instead, I’m like, “Okay, fine. I’ll let them know that I’m not going to go to business school, and I’m going to get into another one of the schools.” That was kind of stupid because the business school’s harder to get into than all the other schools, but whatever. So I’m like, “Fine. I’m not going to do that,” and so my dad, being that my dad— remember, their goal is to go to school so that you can get a career to take care of yourself. The passion part of it doesn’t ring in the head. To follow your passion of what you want to do was not an option—plus, I didn’t know what my passion was. I remember him going, “Well, what about this?” and, “What about this?” and, “What about this?” I go, “I don’t like that. Don’t like that. Don’t like that,” and then he finally just goes, “Of all those things we listed, which one do you least hate, and pick that.” So that just kind of shows you how it’s not about passion but, Okay, we know you don’t like these things but, okay, pick the ones that you least hate. But no, it wasn’t that. So after my brother was telling me, “Oh, you’re just following in my footsteps,” my mom and I happened to be at Tom Thumb that day. (laughs) She was picking a prescription at the pharmacy, and I’m like, “Oh! That’s a job! Huh. Maybe I could do that.” And that was the day I was like, “Fine. I’ll be a pharmacist.” There was no other thought into that whatsoever but, “Okay, I’ll be a pharmacist,” and the rest is history. (laughs) BRODY: Right. So you graduated with a pharmacy degree. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Degree, yeah. I then switched my school over to natural sciences, and then applied into pharmacy school. BRODY: So are you working as a pharmacist? SCHROEDER: I was. The funny thing is, all the pharmacy students and classmates I had—and of all the people who would least likely be a pharmacist five years after we graduate, they probably could have picked me as being that person. As today, I’m no longer a pharmacist. I’m doing more IT in pharmacy, which is—I need my pharmacy—it all worked out, but it’s just kind of funny how life takes you on this journey to where you are. But that’s how it came about. There wasn’t a thought like, I love pharmacy. It was just a matter of not doing business because my brother told me I was following his footsteps. (laughs) Discusses journey to and in college. business ; college ; education ; Pharmacy ; pharmacy school ; SAT ; University of Texas ; UT 2467 Vietnamese Community, Race, and Racism BRODY: That’s pretty funny. You mentioned earlier that you introduced your roommate in college to some Vietnamese food and that you had another friend who was also—was Vietnamese and had a roommate who was not Vietnamese. Was there a large population at UT of Vietnamese students? SCHROEDER: I think there was. There’s a Vietnamese Student Association. I never got involved with that. I don’t know. There was a part of me that just didn’t want to feel like, Hey, I’m Vietnamese, I’m going to try—so maybe, as I said earlier, I didn’t think I was trying to assimilate, but I guess sometimes part of me was like, I’m just going to be like everyone else and not be so—so I didn’t join VSA or anything like that, but there was a huge community of that. I met her just through one of the classes and, lo and behold, she grew up in—her parents had a place in Irving, so we got—but her family was so different from my family. Her family has more of that community feel and they did more of that, so that just kind of made me realize that it’s not—all Vietnamese families aren’t the same. It’s just like in America. Not all families are the same. Every family operates, have different—how they want to raise their families and things like that, so that’s where I realized it’s not just a cultural thing, it’s an individual thing. BRODY: Right. So on that note, you didn’t—you were trying to assimilate with different experiences and trying different things. Did you experience or observe any discrimination or racism as you were either growing up or since then? SCHROEDER: You know, I don’t—I would say yes, I guess it’s there, and whether I block it out or not, I don’t know. I mean, I know that people use the word chink and all that stuff, or F-O-B, but I never took it to offense of, Oh, you’re—that didn’t bother me so much. I guess it’s just a matter of fact of like, Okay, yeah. Well, we’re Asian, and you’re not. I mean—but it’s just, when you hear it enough, I guess it’s—everyone takes it differently, right? I mean, you can take it and be like, Yeah, we are Asian. We are different. But we’re not different. So at the end of the day, if I say that you’re Indian or someone else is black, it’s a fact, so why should I take offense to the fact that—well, “chink”—okay, I do say something with “chink” because chink is Chinese and I’m Vietnamese, so there’s—you kind of categorize that, but I’m just—I think that, Yeah, we are Asian, so why would I take—I guess I see it more like, Okay, yeah. That’s a fact, but why don’t you get over that fact and just look at us as people? BRODY: Do you think that there were ever examples or instances where you didn’t get to do something or you were kept out of something for those reasons? SCHROEDER: I don’t think so. I think my mom kept me on such a tight leash that I think she was the one that kept me from things before I get a chance to feel it from other people. I mean, I’m sure maybe I would have. I think my brother probably felt more like—that he worked harder to not be that way, but I guess my mom had me on a different rein than he was, and we’re also different people in how we react, but I think she restricted me so much that (laughs) no one could restrict me any more than what she had. BRODY: Growing up, did you have friends that were all different cultures, races, ethnicities? SCHROEDER: Yeah. Most of the friends I met were within school, and so whoever was at school, those were the friends. Whether—it wasn’t based on any ethnicity or what have you. BRODY: Right. You were kind of engaged with lots of different groups in terms of just having a—like we talking about before, just a normal American life. Yeah. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Normal. It was what you called “normal.” If I weren’t Vietnamese and I was still the same—a different race, it probably would’ve been the same. Discusses racism and the impact of it. assimilation ; chink ; college ; Community ; culture ; discrimination ; family ; FOB ; food ; friendships ; Racism ; values ; Vietnamese culture ; Vietnamese Student Association 2700 Identity BRODY: That brings me to another set of questions about your identity. How do you think about yourself in terms of your identity? I mean, your experience has been in two different countries—even though you were very young when you first came, but your parents as refugees and immigrants assimilating and trying to fit into a new life here and building a new life here, their experience is different than yours as a child growing up here. How do you think of yourself in terms of your identity? SCHROEDER: Hm. That’s a tough—well, hm. As far as from a individual or racial perspective or what? BRODY: (both speaking at once) Just your own, when you think about who you are. SCHROEDER: Well, I think with that, it’s kind of a self-discovery every day, because I think for so long as a child growing up, I think all the way even through college or up until college, I kind of was like, Be the person that your parents expect or want you to be. I think for so long it wasn’t about me or what I wanted. It was more about, This is what you need to do. So I think, as I started to get—even though I was kind of rebellious, I still was rebellious within constrained limits of what you should or shouldn’t do. I think as I got into college—I think there was some more of a self-discovery. I mean, I remember—I mean, this is a funny story—not that funny—but I grew—I studied well, did well in school, and so I think when I went to college I’m like, Everyone knows me as being a good student. I wonder what would happen if I’m not a good student. (laughs) And so I didn’t study as much. I didn’t do that, because I didn’t want to be—I felt like—I don’t know how people view me, so don’t—but my own perception is people just thought, Okay, she does well, she studies, she’s smart, and I didn’t want to be known for that, so I kind of studied a little less, kind of slacked off. I kind of figured out that I was probably wrong all along. People probably didn’t see me that way, but I felt like maybe that’s how I was viewing myself and I portrayed that and how others may see me, so I kind of laid back in that regards. I think there’s a time where—when my mom always did this whole thing. “Hey, Mom. Can I do this?” “Well, you know what the right answer is.” It’s kind of like the right expectation of, Yeah, I know what her answer’s going to be, but I was going to ask, “Can I do this?” because I really wanted to do this other thing. So I guess in college, I finally kind of—there was—they had a group of friends who were going skiing over Christmas, and I’m like, “Hey, Mom. Can I do this?” Okay, she did not want me to go, and then she would go, “Well, ask your father,” and he didn’t want to give the answer, so he goes, “Ask your mother.” It went back and forth for a while. He goes, “Well, you know what you should do,” or, “Do what you want to do.” So for the first time in my life I finally said, “You know what I want to do, and that’s what I’m going to do if you’re not going to give me an answer.” And so they didn’t give me an answer. So along come Christmas. It was a very tense Christmas, (Brody laughs) and then I needed someone to drop me off where they were going to pick—the charter bus was going to take all of us, so it was silence all the way through. They know I was going, but I think it was the first time where I’m kind of like, “You know? If I want to do something enough, then sometimes they’re just going to—I’m going to have to disappoint them.” And what I’ve learned is, there’s—they may expected me to do certain things, but there’s some choices I need to make myself, and yeah, they might be disappointed, but I learned that they’ll get over it. So once I’ve learned that they’ll get over it, there’s some things that, if I want it bad enough, I’ve learned to kind of not let that hold me back. That’s kind of a self-discovery. As I got older, just be able to let them know—because I guess—thinking back now, talking about this, I guess I did let them have a lot of control over what I did or didn’t do, always thinking about my choices, How are they going to react to it? So now, that takes—it’s still in the back burner, but that still takes precedent, like, Okay, what would they want? But you know what? Their thoughts and viewpoints are different than mine, and so it’s okay to be—to make my own choices that, Hey, I can see where they’re coming from with that, but here’s why I’m doing this choice, so to be able to evaluate those type of decisions as I’m older. I guess that’s more of a self-discovery. And then there’s things that it’s like, Okay. Well, I don’t want to go there with them, so we’ll just kind of let that be. But I think as an adult and getting older, I think that’s one of the biggest lessons and discoveries. So I think, to me, it seems like more of navigating the parentals than it is the rest of the world. BRODY: I mean, I’m curious how—and maybe you don’t know the answer to this question because maybe you can’t know it, but—how much of that is informed by your family’s whole journey and experience as refugees, and how much of that is just being the person that you are and the parents that you have? SCHROEDER: I think maybe a combination of both. I think a combination of both, because I just know that I was so young that I probably wasn’t as impacted about the immigrating over here as maybe someone a little bit older or my parents, because I think I look back and go, Wow, my parents were in the twenties when that happened. What was I doing in my twenties? I’m like, Wow. What choices would I have made if that were me? How would have impacted me? And I just think there’s such a huge—it’s a very traumatic experience, now that I think about it, to uplift your family, going somewhere you don’t know. So I think with the experience that they had, it makes me wonder, Would my life or would their mindset on raising people—raising us would have been different, they didn’t have that experience? I mean, granted, it’s a different country, but just that traumatic experience and how you view life from that standpoint, I think that—I can’t see how it can’t impact people and affect them in their decisions later in life, so I kind of wonder, would my mom been a different mom, if it wasn’t for that experience? I don’t know—and where we are. So I think it’s a combination of experience in life and what happens. Discusses discovering own identity and rebelling against Schroeder's parents. American identity ; Asian American identity ; assimilation ; ethnicity ; expectations ; friendships ; holidays ; identity ; immigrants ; parents ; race ; rebellion ; refugees ; self discovery ; trauma ; Vietnamese identity 3090 Family and Marriage BRODY: I know you mentioned your kids, so you’re married and you’ve got two kids. Tell me about that part of your journey. SCHROEDER: Okay. I remember growing up, and (laughs) this sounds so bad, but my mom is very—my dad is more of an open-minded person. Life is good. Mom is more of, like, images, how people perceive you and things like that, so I think I got a combination of both. I just think—engrained, I got a combination of both good and bad traits. I remember just growing up, knowing that my personality is so much more—not your typical Vietnamese girl, I guess—that I was more outspoken. Like, rules in a household, it’s like as kids, you’re not supposed to talk back to your elders. That’s just—you don’t do that. I didn’t view it as talking back. I viewed it as, Okay, you spoke your stance. Let me tell you my side of the story. That’s considered being rude and disrespectful, and I didn’t think that’s fair because I felt like I want to give you my side of the story. And so I remember my mom—my mom was kind of judgy. I think she’s come a long way, but back then she was kind of judgy. I think the reason why her Vietnamese didn’t expand as quickly is because she was afraid that if I say it wrong—she’s a perfectionist. That’s kind of a trait I kind of have, but I’ve learned to not let—try to not let that hold me back in growing. And so she’s afraid to say it wrong, so she never would speak it, and afraid that someone might laugh at her for saying it the wrong way. BRODY: Oh, you mean her English? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) My mom. Yeah, her English. My dad, on the other hand—man, his English wasn’t perfect, but he wasn’t afraid to speak it, so his English kind of progressed better because he used it. But she would make comments— and then she grew up—had a different background than my dad, but she’s—kind of has a little bit more of a, “This is how things should be,” so I remember, she used to make a comment going—I think she knew of a lady who came to America and remarried a non- Vietnamese person, and so she made a comment about that. And I remember as a kid, I just really didn’t like her making comments like that, and I just kind of go, Well, you better be careful because your daughter might be one of those people! Well, guess what? (Brody laughs) To answer your question, I was one of those people because I married outside of the race, and I knew that it was going to be a shocker for them, but the one thing I have to say for my parents, and maybe a lot of parents of that generation—they did come over here for so long stuck on a certain way. You’ve got to marry—they had a vision of what you’re supposed to marry. If you don’t do that, you kind of got nixed from the family. It did happen to some of the friends where they met somebody, she wasn’t from the same part of the country or—I mean, so then they kind of broke ties, and the parents and the child doesn’t speak anymore. So I think that they’ve come a long way in the sense of recognizing that that’s kind of stupid, so kudos to them for that, but— BRODY: So you mean that Vietnamese families who were all over here had a preference as to who their kids married, as to what part of Vietnam their family was from? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Or of same religion, or some like that. It was like, they’ve got to—if their Catholics, you want to marry Catholics only, or if they’re Buddhist, then Buddhists only, or, Oh, he’s from this small town. He’s not from this. So they’re very— BRODY: Even though they’re all living over here? SCHROEDER: Yes. So they would go, Oh, well, that family’s from whatever. They would look down. I mean, it’s just kind of very judgy, so—even though they’re Vietnamese, so I finally just realized, You know what? If I were to find a Vietnamese guy, he probably won’t be from the same part of the country. He probably won’t be the— they’ll find something wrong with him, so why does it matter? So I’ll just marry whoever I want! So I met Jerry, so we got married. My parents were like—Dad, as open-minded as I thought he was, he wasn’t as open-minded. I mean, he acted like he was fine but he wasn’t, because we didn’t talk for a while once we met. I mean, we talked, but we didn’t talk about that. But he—so one day—I mean, this is really funny. Jerry would laugh about this. So Dad just goes, “Well, I don’t know anything about him,” and stuff. “I need his social security number to do a whole background check and everything on him.” And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? This is so wrong!” I mean, Jerry gave his social security number! (laughs) He didn’t have anything to hide! My dad is like, “Oh, he’s Canadian, and so who’s to say he doesn’t have a wife and kids somewhere up in Canada? You don’t know anything about him, so I need his social security to do a whole background check.” So Jerry openly—he gave it to him. Like I said, he didn’t care. And I finally one day just went to my dad. I’m like, “You know what? I really have a problem with you doing that. What are you going to do with his social security number?” He’s like, “Well, I want to check.” I’m like, “Okay. My uncles got married, or they met someone. Did y’all do a background check on them?” I go, “You’re only doing it because he’s not Vietnamese,” and he goes, “No, that’s not why.” I go, “Bologna. That is why you’re going behind my back complaining about him, because he’s not—you’re not saying he’s not Vietnamese because you’re assuming. You don’t think you are, but you are. It’s because he’s not Vietnamese. I’m just going to point.” I go—because this is at a point, because my dad and I were really close, and so that’s just the one thing that—so I just had to just put it out there, because the silence—we knew what we were avoiding. And so I go, “What about Uncle So-and-So, and he—did y’all go and do a background check on her?” And “Did you go do this?” “No.” I go, “Why?” He goes, “Well, they’re Vietnamese, so we can kind of know within their family all this other stuff and get the information that we need.” I go, “I’m really sure that you went through that much detail to make sure that she wasn’t this and this. That is bologna, of why you’re doing that.” So I called them on that. So then once we got past that conversation, it was all in open. We were all good. So he did do that and he didn’t realize it, that he was being that way—because, like I said, he’s usually open-minded, but I think it’s just that whole unknown. But it’s also because—and then later, as we got married, some of their other friends’ kids got married, they married non- Vietnamese, it seemed to be more acceptable, but at that time people weren’t. And so as it’s become that there’s interracial marriages, it became more acceptable to them, but I think they have a hard time with it, even though they don’t want to admit it. BRODY: How did you meet, and how did you first introduce Jerry to your parents? SCHROEDER: Okay. So Jerry will have a different story than my story. When Jerry and I met through an acquaintance, and then we ran into each other again at Chuy’s or whatever and just had a conversation, and we just—the rest is history. But my mom was in Vietnam visiting my mother and stuff, and so Dad and I went to dinner at Cheesecake Factory, and then Jerry was around so I invited Jerry to come with us. I introduced him as my friend because we were just dating. We weren’t girlfriend and boyfriend yet. Well, I guess Dad went off and got all upset and was talking to the aunts and uncles, telling them, “How rude that she introduced him—she didn’t introduce him as a boyfriend. It’s just a friend, blah, blah, blah.” Well, I guess I never introduced him to anybody else, so I guess I never put the two and two together that, Oh, he thought this was more than it is. I didn’t think anything of it, but yeah, that’s how he was introduced. It was “a friend,” and he was not pleased with the fact that I didn’t introduce him as my boyfriend, which I didn’t see him as a boyfriend at the time. He was just a friend. So that was the—and so, that kind of started off that bumpy road, I guess. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) Sounds like it. SCHROEDER: It was a miscommunication, but it led down this bumpy road for a while. BRODY: So all these years have passed. You’ve got two kids. Tell me about the kids. SCHROEDER: I have two boys, so they’re growing up in an interracial marriage or what have you—two different—I thought Jerry and I had more of the similar raising, but it’s different. I just think the Asian ways of raising children is very different than the Western culture. BRODY: How so? SCHROEDER: Well, now that I understand Jerry’s parents and family better—I mean, they’re more easy-going—live life, enjoy it, academics is fine, you go to school, and everything will fall into place, kind of thing. Like, everything just works out, which is a very nice, relaxed mentality, but my innate nature and what I grew up with and still part of, to the core, that I am—I mean, I try to be more relaxed, but yes, I believe that education is important, you got to do well in school, these are your responsibilities. You’ve got to nurture the work ethics and things, and just not let it just all—“it will all work out.” I mean, that’s a great mentality. I just think there’s a happy medium in the middle, but it’s kind of like the battling of this, “It’ll all work out,” to—I agree that the Asian way or—it’s very kind of rigid, where I’ve learned—I’ve recognized that and recognizing that. And I think the biggest part of that was, I would’ve turned completely into my mother, if it wasn’t for—we discovered Montessori when the kids were younger. I didn’t know what Montessori was. It just happened to be like, “Oh!” When my oldest was two, I was like, “He needs to socialize with other kids,” so we were just kind of, “Oh, look, there’s this nice school in the neighborhood. Let’s go check it out,” and we realized we liked the way the kids were behaving and the manners and what they were teaching them, so I’m like, “Hey. Why not put them in here so he can socialize, learn daily skills, and then eventually just go move off into public school and move to a different neighborhood?” So we got caught up in this whole Montessori, but I think that as good as it was for the kids, I think it was probably more helpful for me without even recognizing it. They taught me—because I think the Asian person, we tried to do so much for our kids. We want to raise him. We want to—everything’s got to be done right, like there’s a regimen. And they taught me, Oh, what? My eighteen-month-old can hold a cup and drink it by himself without a sippy? What? They can do this? I didn’t recognize what these little beings are capable of and Montessori showed me that. They taught me this whole other side of letting a kid be their kid without suffocating them, which I guarantee I would have been. I know I would have been. My mom’s kind of like that. It’s all I know. And it taught me to recognize this other way, but it also taught me to recognize my natural instincts and how to catch that, and so that’s where I felt like, Okay, easy-going. That makes sense to a certain degree, but you can’t let them loose in that—I can’t let my kids loose in that world because I’m just not like that. I still feel like I need to control that. So I think that, to me, is where that balance is, and I think Jerry, on the other hand, still doesn’t get why I’m so concerned—like, It’ll all come in place. Well, no, because then I try to point out—trying not to be mean, but certain things—“Well, look at this, this, and this. How did that turn out for So-and-So? How did that?” I’m not saying that what I’m doing is right, but I’m trying to provide them the tools that hopefully—I know this doesn’t work and this doesn’t work, so at least what I’m trying maybe is better than those two things. I guess that’s where it is in raising the kids that’s a little bit kind of different and challenges the totally-free-for-all versus the other. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Right. So there’s two different sides of personality and culture, but speaking of culture, are the kids—have you taught them a lot about Vietnamese culture? Or how have you balanced that? SCHROEDER: Unfortunately not, because I don’t think my parents did too much of that, which, looking back, I wish they would have. But I think for them, they were just trying to assimilate into a new country and getting us assimilated. I think their goal was, How do we get them to best fit in? So I think they kind of let that piece go, and I think it’s quite unfortunate. I just—but I don’t—how are you supposed to know? How are you supposed to know that, Hey, I can still keep these cultures and these standards as they move forward into this other culture? Because other families have done it, but that was because they were so in that community, but I think they were just like, Hey, how do we make them adjust the best into this new world? So they kind of assimilated as much into that that I think we lost this piece. BRODY: What—I mean, if you could think of a few things that are—to you, that distill what it means to be Vietnamese, what would you say? SCHROEDER: I would say family. The family unit is probably the big thing. I mean, no matter how—I just think that the eleven of us that came—I mean, even though we’re dispersed throughout the US—I mean, I have cousins now that were born in the US. My little brother was born in the US. I just feel like there’s a connection between the eleven of us that came, even though the age difference. My grandparents have passed away, but the aunts and uncles—I think the core of the eleven that came—I think there’s just a bond and a history that can’t be taken away, and just—but I think it’s not just about being Vietnamese, I think it’s just the—when we came here, because I think Vietnam has changed a lot since we left too, so the culture over there—I think everyone’s just trying to survive and make the best, but as a culture, I just think the family unit of sticking together when it matters. Even though everyone’s gone doing their own thing, but when something happens and we need the family together, I think we still have that core. I think that’s what I take away from it, whether it’s being Vietnamese, or just my family itself. Discusses marriage, disagreements on marriage, family, and kids. children ; culture ; English ; English as a Second Language ; family ; famiy ; learning English ; marriage ; parenting ; religion 3941 Grandparents/Improvising Vietnamese ingredients for cooking BRODY: I didn’t ask you about this earlier, but your grandparents were with you when you came over. What was their life like once they got here? SCHROEDER: I think my grandfather ended up getting a job at the bank. I’m not sure what he did. Was he maintenance? I’m not sure. My grandmother—oh my God. She was raising the kids, but I remember living—this is funny, because I think a lot of the older women did. So a lot of what they did was, they made—so when we came to America back in ’75 and in those early—the late seventies, there weren’t really Vietnamese restaurants—or Vietnamese grocery stores to have the Vietnamese food, and for them, they wanted their Vietnamese food. And so I remember Grandma would—on the weekends, my aunts—their—I’m just a kid so I’m playing, but the older folks—she’s making rice paper. She is cooking on the little burner, whatever—the rice flour, whatever—and she’s making rice paper. They would get the screens from the windows, so they’d take off the windows of the apartment because that’s—and so they would clean that, and they would get the rice paper and they would make it, and they would lay it out into the fields to dry—“fields”—we’re talking about the green space in the apartments (laughs)—and they would lay—and that’s, like, in the sun to dry, and then once it dries, everyone sit there and pick off—and she would sell the rice paper. I remember her making rice papers. I mean, that’s—people like rice papers, and the rice paper they had was—you would then cook it on a burner, and it would pop kind of like popcorn, so it’s a nice, crunchy rice paper. So that’s—I remember her making that. I remember her—and then they would—once they had an apartment, they grew greens and vegetables. Oh, she would grow bean sprouts. Bean sprouts—I mean, I remember—I don’t know if you need—but they would get clean, new rug—carpets, and they would grow the bean sprouts in, like, ten gallon tubs, and then, when it grows—so they would sell that to people. BRODY: (both speaking at once) To other Vietnamese people. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) To other Vietnamese families. Yeah. So she did a lot of that, so it was kind of like her own in-house growing. That’s what I remember about her trying to make a living, is that kind of stuff. BRODY: Right, because she didn’t speak English. SCHROEDER: No. She didn’t speak English at all. BRODY: Did your grandmother play a large role in raising you? SCHROEDER: Not really. I think my mom did most of that, and my aunt who played with us. So my grandma—no. I think she was helping with her own kids that she had to do. But we were close. I mean, our schedules were routine. I just—there’s some things that I miss that I—to me, I value now. Every Sunday morning when we got up, we went over to the grandparents’ house. All of us would hang out, whether we’re just sitting in the little apartment doing whatever—they’re doing their rice paper. Every Sunday, we would go see the grandparents. BRODY: That was a tradition. SCHROEDER: That was a tradition. It was a good one, though, I think about, that we kind of lose in today’s world—that everyone’s so busy, they don’t have time or make the time. But back then, guess what? The stores weren’t open. Nothing was open on Sundays, so Sunday, really, you couldn’t go anywhere but to spend time with family, so maybe the American culture is doing the same thing. Who knows? Maybe they went to church to spend time with family, and we kind of did our thing too, because there was nothing— you were kind of—which is kind of nice. I remember when that kind of went away, when that mall came in and you could—the malls could open on Sundays. BRODY: Right, that Blue Law. SCHROEDER: Yeah. Retells life of Schroeder's grandparents in America, Blue Law ; cooking ; cuisine ; employment ; family ; food ; grandparents ; groceries ; immigration ; jobs ; restaurants ; rice paper ; stores ; Vietnamese food 4157 Learning and speaking Vietnamese language Brody: Do you still speak Vietnamese? SCHROEDER: I speak broken Vietnamese. BRODY: Where do you most often have the opportunity to speak it? SCHROEDER: I’ll speak it to my parents or just within the family, like if I’m with—if my family from Vietnam came to visit—they don’t come very often—or we’re with family or the elders. Like, if we get together as a family and it’s people that are my parents’ age, I would try to speak Vietnamese to them—or broken Vietnamese—because I feel weird speaking English to them. But of course, I throw in English words because I don’t know too much of it. But yeah, I did grow up—I didn’t even mention this. I grew up watching a Vietnamese Chinese soap opera on TV. (laughs) BRODY: What was it called? SCHROEDER: I can’t remember, but you know how they have—like, there’s Bollywood and stuff like that? Well, Vietnamese had their own where they’re Chinese actors dubbed in Vietnamese, but I kind of laugh because I think that’s how I learned a lot of Vietnamese. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Right. Was it on TV here? SCHROEDER: No, no. They’re on VHSes. Everyone had VHS and we’ll watch it. It was kind of like one of those romance, drawn-out saga, but I remember—because surprisingly, my Vietnamese is better than my brother’s, and a few others were like, How do you—? Like, “I think it’s from watching those soap operas.” I mean, because I would sit there and rewind and go, “Mom, what does that word mean? Mom, what does that mean?” And so I watched a bunch of that too. (laughs) BRODY: That’s so interesting. SCHROEDER: (laughs) So that’s where I got my Vietnamese culture—from watching soap operas. No, but they were—yeah, but that’s what they were all watching, and my brother did watch some, but he watched more of the fighting ones, and I watched more of the romantic ones, but the fighting ones didn’t have as much speaking, so he didn’t learn as much. But that’s what they do. They watch—we grew up watching Chinese soap operas. When we go over on Sundays, we’re watching Chinese soap operas in Vietnamese. And now, I think the older generation watches these Vietnamese musicians—their concerts and stuff on TV all the time now, which I never got into that— the Asian concert scene. I think, in high school, some kids got into that, but I never did. BRODY: That wasn’t you, right? SCHROEDER: No. That wasn't me. Talks about Vietnamese speaking abilities. Elders ; English ; learning Vietnamese ; soap opera ; television ; Television ; TV ; VHS ; Vietnamese ; Vietnamese language 4282 Reflections about what it means to be American and preserving Vietnamese heritage BRODY: Thinking about your kids, they were born here, they’ve grown up here, and it sounds like it’s been not as easy to transmit some of the Vietnamese culture to them. What would you like them to know about your story and about your family’s story? SCHROEDER: I think more of how we got here and how—where we are today. I think, for me, is for them to learn that it doesn’t matter what happens to you and what circumstances. What you make of yourself is the big thing. At some point, I wouldn’t mind taking them back to Vietnam to see the countryside and the beauty. I’ve been back once, but we were there more to visit family, but just to see the country, which I haven’t seen myself—but as far as that—I mean, part of it, it’s sad to say, is kind of lost, but if we can keep whatever history we have—because I think when my parents came here, too, everything was kind of left back—like, no pictures, no this—there’s part of it that kind of got severed and lost, which is life, and the rest of it is just kind of what you remember. So if we can just keep that history, which is what you’re doing—I think it’s valuable. Whether or not they care for it now, I think it’s good to have. But yeah, just kind of where they came from—how we all ended up here. As far as the cultural, the—I think it’s kind of lost. It’s sad to say, but I think for us it’s kind of lost, but I think that they’re kind of in a whole different—this generation’s totally different for us too, for them. Now, I kind of laugh because they’re half Vietnamese and half white, but if they were to see themselves, I don’t think they see themselves as white or Vietnamese, but I think they probably see themselves more of a Westerner, than as an Eastern. You know, like, the whole—I remind them, I go, “Hey guys, you’re half Vietnamese in there,” you know, so I just think—but I think that doesn’t have to do with anything else. It’s just the fact that we live in America and in the Western world. I think, if we—if Jerry and I met and we lived in Vietnam, they’d probably see themselves more as Vietnamese. So I just think because we happened to grow up here, they kind of see them as that. But as I look around, America now is all full of—it truly is a melting pot. BRODY: What does it mean to you to be American? SCHROEDER: I think, to be American—I think it’s the freedom ; the freedom to be able to make your choices. I feel like America allows us to—if you really want something bad and you work hard at it, you can achieve it, but you’ve got to put in the work. You can’t just assume that people are going to hand things to you, and I think that sometimes that gets lost. But for me, I feel like America is the land of opportunity if people choose to take advantage of what the government and what America provides you. I mean, America is a place where it says, Hey, we are going to educate your children. We’ve got laws that your children can’t work so that they can educate and better themselves. I think it saddens me to see that people here sometimes don’t take advantage of that, whereas when you come from a place like Vietnam—like I said, I didn’t grow up there, but seeing how— listening to the stories—my dad, he grew up from a poor family. He wanted an education and had to work to get himself to where he can get an education. It wasn’t given to you. It wasn’t for—and you had to work at it, and just to see that other countries—like, if the kids were given the opportunity to get an education, how much better they could be, or food—and here in America, wow. We provide the education. We provide the free food service. We provide all this, and it saddens me that people don’t look at that as an opportunity to be able to do something better with theirself, and America provides that. I think most immigrants coming over here seize that and can appreciate that and value that. I think sometimes, when you’re here on this land for so long, you take it for granted, and it makes me worry about the future generation, not just of my generation—of kids growing—grandkids, and stuff like that. Are they going to become this that take that so much for granted, that we saw as an opportunity? As long as we can keep these from appreciating—knowing that this is an opportunity, and if you do what you need to do, you can be anything. I guess that’s my biggest piece on that. Discusses what it means to be an American and Vietnamese, as well as the importance of family history. America ; American identity ; assimilation ; children ; culture ; Easterners ; ethnicity ; heritage ; history ; identity ; melting pot ; race ; values ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese identity ; Westerners 4567 Interview Conclusion BRODY: That’s great. Is there anything that we haven’t talked about today or that I have forgotten to ask that you’d like to add? SCHROEDER: No. (laughs) I think I’m good with that. If I—no, I haven’t—no. I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered it. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I’m so honored to have been able to record it for this collection, so thank you so much. SCHROEDER: Well, thanks for documenting it for me. I think, when I’m ninety, I’ll listen to it again and remind my old, dementia self (laughs) what all this is all about. BRODY: Well, thank you so much. end of interview Conclusion of the interview Baylor University Institute for Oral History Dai Pham Schroeder Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody June 30, 2019 Addison, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 30, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mrs. Dai Schroeder. This interview is taking place at Mrs. Schroeder&#039 ; s home in Addison, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the &quot ; Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans&quot ; project. Thank you so much for meeting me and letting me interview you. To start out with, tell me about what you remember of your life in Vietnam. |00:00:30| SCHROEDER: Actually, I don&#039 ; t remember any of my life in Vietnam. I came when I was two, so there is zero recollection of Vietnam. BRODY: So what are your first memories of--at all? SCHROEDER: I guess the only memory I have coming or migrating here--this is totally random. We were on the plane. I think I was two at the time, my brother was three, and I remember my brother asking where the bathroom was, and that is the only recollection as a childhood during that time. BRODY: Have you pieced that together? Where was the plane going? Where were you coming from? SCHROEDER: No, but I assume that that would be on the flight to America because I think that was our only plane trip since we left the country. |00:01:14| BRODY: Where did your family land? SCHROEDER: Gosh. I think I have to talk to my dad. Was it in--believe it was in Arkansas is where we landed, because that&#039 ; s where--we came here and then we were--I think we were sponsored by a church here in Richardson, but I can&#039 ; t remember if they sponsored us. I think they sponsored while we were still in--what was it? Where were we? There was some island that we were at where all the refugees were, and I can&#039 ; t remember if they sponsored us from there and then we went to Arkansas and then came, and there&#039 ; s, maybe, some orientation or training-type stuff before we came to the States, but--yeah. It was probably to Arkansas. Or you know what? Maybe it could&#039 ; ve been the flight from Arkansas from Dallas. I&#039 ; m not sure which one it was. |00:02:03| BRODY: In any case, you were so young that it makes sense that you wouldn&#039 ; t remember all of that. What are your first memories, then, just as a child, unrelated even, to your experiences getting here? SCHROEDER: Well, as far as--I guess I remember more of once we were in Richardson or moved to where we were going to be. I don&#039 ; t even remember what age I was. It&#039 ; s all childhood. It&#039 ; s all the same memory. And the order in which I&#039 ; m remembering this--I don&#039 ; t know which came first. It&#039 ; s not a linear order. I remember we went to church every Sunday. I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s with the First Presbyterian Church of Richardson. So the folks--I guess there&#039 ; s a bunch of families that sponsored us, so they probably--we went to, maybe, Sunday school? I don&#039 ; t remember anything about Sunday school, but I remember that we were somewhere else while the parents were in the service. I remember they did put us into a preschool. I can&#039 ; t remember the preschool. I remember the exact location. I mean, we drive by it every day. It&#039 ; s off Belt Line [Road], and it&#039 ; s between Hillcrest [Road] and Preston [Road], and I believe there is now a Jewish church there, but there&#039 ; s a little--and it wasn&#039 ; t a big church. It&#039 ; s a little house or whatever. That was the preschool. And people who know me now to this day, and even then, I was afraid of dogs, and I vividly remember this one lady--because the ladies at the church were the ones that drove us to preschool every day, because my mom didn&#039 ; t drive. My dad couldn&#039 ; t take me. He was working. And so she would come pick up, and she had this little dog sitting in the car, and so every day I&#039 ; m just fearful, in the car with this dog, going to preschool. So I vividly remember that incident. I remember stories from preschool where, I guess, the teachers would ask me some--I don&#039 ; t know. I would come home crying, and I guess I didn&#039 ; t know why. I guess maybe I was trying to communicate with them in Vietnamese or something. My mom didn&#039 ; t know what it was, so I guess there was incidences of that. And then my mom would say, &quot ; Oh, yeah, you were--they needed something and you didn&#039 ; t know what it was,&quot ; so there was a communication at a young age and, I guess, the frustration of that. I remember one time--the school was small. I remember there was probably two or three rooms in the building ; at least that&#039 ; s all I remember. Walk into this one room, when I went to the wrong room on accident. It was an empty room. It had a big floor-to-ceiling mirror, and I think it was the first time I exposed to a mirror. I&#039 ; m not sure, (laughs) but I looked at it. I freaked out, like, &quot ; Who is that?&quot ; Then when I moved, this other image moved with me, so I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; What is that?&quot ; So I think I kept it inside. I was really scared of that room for quite some time, but it was because of that mirror. I mean, now that I know what it is, it was really just a mirror, but it was floor-to-ceiling, for this little two-year-old who never experienced that before. So I remember that. So yeah, those were--I guess some of those memories all fell into the preschool. I don&#039 ; t know why that&#039 ; s stuck in my head. |00:05:04| BRODY: You&#039 ; ve mentioned that your dad was working and your mom still wasn&#039 ; t proficient in English. How did that come about? What was your dad doing? SCHROEDER: At that age, I probably didn&#039 ; t know, just in talking to him later. I guess at the time he was a security guard, but as far as at that younger age, I wasn&#039 ; t that involved in what they were doing to--you know. |00:05:33| BRODY: Did you have siblings? SCHROEDER: I did. I have--okay. I have a brother. He&#039 ; s a year older, so we basically were each other&#039 ; s rock, I guess, or you can call it that. So at that time, there&#039 ; s just the two of us. BRODY: Right. And was he in the same preschool? SCHROEDER: He was, but I don&#039 ; t remember him--we weren&#039 ; t in the same class, so he wasn&#039 ; t there to (Brody laughs) be my rock in those moments of when I&#039 ; m on my own. |00:05:58| BRODY: So the sponsor families, were they part of your life for the whole time that you were growing up? SCHROEDER: I think they were very involved with our family, and I think when we came to America there was eleven of us, my brother and I being the youngest, and the rest of them were--because it was my grandfather and my grandmother, and then my brother and half of his siblings, and then us, so they--I think they were more involved with my aunts and uncles. They were more of the grade school age and middle school age. We were just little preschoolers. They were involved in the sense that they put us in preschool, they took us to school, stuff like that, but as far as everything else, I think they were probably more involved with them, or if they were involved with me, I don&#039 ; t remember. |00:06:45| BRODY: Right. You were very young. So you got here, you went to preschool and at some point, I guess you went to elementary school, right? How was that? SCHROEDER: I don&#039 ; t remember. At this point, I think we felt like we were just--we did what was the next step, right? But I do remember--I just know that we grew up--I mean, my mom worked really hard to try to assimilate us. I can--looking back, I know it was a step for her. I remember when it was our birthday and she would make a cake. I don&#039 ; t think she ever made a cake before, you know? I think that was because everyone did it, and you bake a cake, and you blow a candle. I don&#039 ; t think they did that back then in Vietnam, so that was something new for her. And you know, I mean, bless her heart, it was like--it wasn&#039 ; t the best cake in the world, but she tried. I think that was something different that when we came here. I remember in school when they said, Oh, you need to bring something for your child&#039 ; s birthday, and my favorite dessert was creampuffs, but I guess back in nineteen--how old would I have been at five? So if I was &#039 ; 73--so 1978, so I was in kindergarten, so my mom would make my creampuffs that I love so much and would bring it to school. And I just remember the reaction of all the kids, like, Ew, what is this? They didn&#039 ; t even touch it. They seemed so disgusted by it. They didn&#039 ; t even try it, because it&#039 ; s--I mean, they&#039 ; re kids, and I think in today&#039 ; s world, people are more open to trying more ethnic and cultural foods. Back in 1978, I don&#039 ; t think that was the case. I mean, people were like, Ew, what is that? So I never had my mom bake creampuffs ever again for school! (laughs) I mean, because it was kind of like--I was kind of embarrassed, like, Okay, we didn&#039 ; t bring the normal cupcakes, and what was wrong with us? We brought this cream. So I think my mom was doing what I--she knew what I liked, but then culturally or within the school, the kids--I mean, kids are kids, right? |00:08:36| BRODY: Did you experience a lot of that, of trying to navigate how to be, as you said, normal, and sort of your home life or being different? SCHROEDER: Yes and no. I think part of it came naturally. Part of it was just kind of-- and I think with anybody, whether it was a--coming to America as an immigrant, I&#039 ; m sure that people who live here have their own battles and struggles too, so whether it was a result of being an immigrant or the cultural difference, or it was just part of childhood, growing up. So based on the experiences that come about--you know, social cues--you kind of react a certain way. Whether those social cues, like I said, are based on cultural differences, I don&#039 ; t know. But, I mean, yeah, there&#039 ; s things like--there&#039 ; s been differences growing up. I mean, as later in life, it&#039 ; s like--we had friends ; friends would sleep over. They had slumber parties and stuff like that. Well, my mom was like, &quot ; Nope.&quot ; And it was kind of a double standard. I mean, I guess in America, we&#039 ; re so--everyone&#039 ; s conscious of the individual and treating everyone the same. Well, you know what? Vietnamese, back then--I don&#039 ; t know--boys and girls are treated differently. Boys can do certain things that girls can&#039 ; t do, and there&#039 ; s no--I grew up. I felt kind of like in a sexist world where my older brother, who&#039 ; s only one year older--he gets to go over to people&#039 ; s sleepovers, slumber parties, have all this fun, and guess what? I can&#039 ; t. And what&#039 ; s the reason? &quot ; You&#039 ; re a girl.&quot ; That is the only reason. There was no other reason. And then all my other friends could, so I remember slumber parties, my mom was like, &quot ; Oh, yes, you can go, but we&#039 ; ll pick you up at ten o&#039 ; clock,&quot ; and so I&#039 ; d go and they&#039 ; d pick me up at ten. So that was a difference compared to all the other girls that were there. |00:10:30| BRODY: (both speaking at once) What were they afraid of, in your opinion? SCHROEDER: Oh, girls don&#039 ; t sleep at other people&#039 ; s house. It&#039 ; s just this--there&#039 ; s not afraid of anything. It&#039 ; s just, &quot ; Girls do not sleep at other people&#039 ; s houses,&quot ; period. BRODY: But your brother did all those things. Okay. SCHROEDER: Oh, yes. I could have a friend sleep over, but I could never do it. I could have one friend sleep over, so my best friend growing up--she would be the one that would sleep over, but I never could sleep at anyone else&#039 ; s house. And to me, I didn&#039 ; t see the big deal, and then I saw it as, &quot ; Yes, great, I can go and stay until ten,&quot ; but it seems like all the stories I heard the next day, all the fun stuff happened at late night when you&#039 ; re laying down! And the stories over the next morning at breakfast, that&#039 ; s when all the--you know? And so I felt I kind of missed out on that, but I mean, as a kid growing up, you&#039 ; re just kind of like, &quot ; Wow. Why can&#039 ; t I do these things, especially if he can do it?&quot ; So that&#039 ; s probably where I&#039 ; ve--that difference is, and my brother didn&#039 ; t care because he was able to do what he wanted to do, so he wasn&#039 ; t up to bat for me. (laughs) |00:11:32| BRODY: What was grade school like for you here as a--having recently learned English and sort of adjusting to--having the whole family adjust to life in the United States? SCHROEDER: I don&#039 ; t think mine was any different than anyone else growing up, because since I came at two, I was so young. So by the time I went to grade school, my English was like anybody else&#039 ; s, so I don&#039 ; t think I had any language barrier. So that piece, I felt was fine. I mean, academically, fine. Learning was fine. I just remember stories of handwriting and stuff. We would write real nice. I remember one story where I was in school and this teacher--I think I had great handwriting, but she would come and try to correct the way I had my paper. It was kind of on the side instead of straight-- horizontal, and she would come and try to make it right, and I couldn&#039 ; t write. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; I need to turn it.&quot ; And so she finally just figured out that, &quot ; Okay, we&#039 ; ll let you write this way.&quot ; I would tell my mom the story. She goes, &quot ; You know what? You&#039 ; re lucky because in Vietnam back then, if you&#039 ; re left-handed, they would sit there and hit your hand and force you write right-handed.&quot ; So even with the stories, there was just more flexibility in America. That teacher finally learned, &quot ; Hey, she can write. She can do fine. We&#039 ; re not going to force this and make it worse,&quot ; but just knowing culturally, elsewhere, that my mom is like, &quot ; That&#039 ; s not a big deal. I mean, you can adapt to that.&quot ; So it&#039 ; s like, we should be able to adapt better, because in Vietnam they&#039 ; re forced to conform to the standards of the way things should be done. |00:13:19| BRODY: With your parents, it sounds like your mom really wanted you guys to assimilate and helped you in that way. Were there examples of you and your brother maybe sort of educating your parents about how things are here, because you were in school? SCHROEDER: You know, if there was, I don&#039 ; t remember. I think my parents probably did the best they could. I just knew there were times--I remember in grade school when they did gymnastics. Friends were taking gymnastics classes, but I never asked my parents of that because I knew we couldn&#039 ; t afford it, so what&#039 ; s the point of asking for something--because they were trying to raise us--and so there are things that I wanted to do, but I knew we just never would ask for it. I remember going to the grocery store and going, &quot ; Mom, can I have some Pockys(??)?&quot ; &quot ; No, you can&#039 ; t have that. We can&#039 ; t (??).&quot ; So I knew off the bat, of what to ask of them and what not, so we really didn&#039 ; t ask much. We just knew it was expected of us to go to school, do well, don&#039 ; t get in trouble, and that&#039 ; s what we did. And so I guess knowing what the expectation was or not to bother them with any more burdens, we didn&#039 ; t--the brain never went further to try to go, &quot ; Okay, what about this, this, and this?&quot ; We just did what was kind of expected. |00:14:40| BRODY: Right. So at home, tell me about your food life, right? Did your mom cook a lot of Vietnamese food still or did she move into cooking American food? SCHROEDER: You know, it&#039 ; s so funny that you mention that, because I didn&#039 ; t even think about that until now. She cooked Vietnamese food a lot, but I remember there was--as we got in middle school, my aunt--she learned how to make spaghetti and meat sauce. Oh my gosh! Then Mom learned how to make that, so that was what she made, and my mom would sit there--I was kind of a picky eater, you know, and I would tell her, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not hungry.&quot ; She goes, &quot ; There is a whole table full of food. You&#039 ; re not eating,&quot ; and all I wanted to eat was probably spaghetti, meatballs, and pizza! So we did have that once in a while, but that would be--I know spaghetti meat is not the American food, but that&#039 ; s not Vietnamese food, so that was the one meal that was not Vietnamese, but then along comes the day of learning about Velveeta cheese and SPAM, and we thought that was delicatessen! (both laugh) Looking back now, I&#039 ; m like, Maybe it was best that we stuck with Vietnamese food, but back then, I remember my mom goes, &quot ; Oh, I was at a friend&#039 ; s house and they had this, and this stuff&#039 ; s really good!&quot ; So she goes and buys SPAM, and cooks it. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Wow, this is the best thing over!&quot ; So the things that we got into with the American culture that I laugh at now was probably more of the processed food and not real foods, but that&#039 ; s when we kind of went away from the Vietnamese food. As a grown up now, I kind of wish I would have stuck more with it--I mean, because now I want the Vietnamese food and Mom doesn&#039 ; t make it anymore because there&#039 ; s not a house full of kids and people. |00:16:16| BRODY: What were your favorite things that your mom cooked growing up? SCHROEDER: Oh, gosh. I remember it changed. At one time, it was Bun Rieu, which is kind of like a rice noodle soup that had crab meat and eggs and stuff, and then later, it became pho, but the beef pho, and things like that. Oh, but I remember--oh, this is even a better story. When I was a kid--and this may sound disgusting for those here--my mom would make pork feet, and she would caramelize this really good. I didn&#039 ; t know what I was eating and I loved it, until one day I grew up and I realized what it was. I was so disgusted, I never ate it again! (Brody laughs) Only because I knew what it was, the thought of what it was--but that was one of my favorite until I realized that--what I was eating. BRODY: What was that called? SCHROEDER: I was--well, khô--it&#039 ; s kind of, like, the way you cook it, so I don&#039 ; t know. Heo khô, but it was the foot, but I never--it was just-- BRODY: So that was an end to your-- SCHROEDER: It was an end, because I liked that collagen and all--but now, thinking about that--it&#039 ; s sometimes best to not know what you&#039 ; re eating if you&#039 ; re enjoying it. (laughs) |00:17:24| BRODY: Did your mom teach you how to cook Vietnamese food? SCHROEDER: I think she tried. My mom is very much a perfectionist, so I remember growing up, and girls were supposed to learn how to cook and what have you. I did a lot of mincing garlic and stuff for all her marinades, but as far as chopping and cutting, I think she tried, and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, it wasn&#039 ; t cut thin enough and it&#039 ; s not the same size,&quot ; and so I just learned to--if she don&#039 ; t like it--if Dad&#039 ; s running somewhere, I just kind of jumped and I&#039 ; d go, &quot ; Oh, Dad! Where are you going?&quot ; I&#039 ; d just hop on with him before Mom can stop me and keep me in the kitchen. But I wish I would have stuck it through and learned some more of those Vietnamese dishes and cuisines--but no, she tried. BRODY: Do you cook now--Vietnamese food? SCHROEDER: I do. I remember, when I started going back to that it was in college, and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Remember how to make that gâ kho?&quot ; which is a caramelized fish or whatever, and it&#039 ; s made with fish sauce and it really--fish sauce, if you&#039 ; re not used to the smell, it really--a lot of people don&#039 ; t like it. The funniest story is in college I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Mom, how do you make that?&quot ; So I would--so I made it one time, and it turned out good. I mean, in my mind, I thought it tasted great. Mom was like, &quot ; Oh, it&#039 ; s missing this, this, and this,&quot ; but to me, eighty-twenty, I got the gist of the flavor, it&#039 ; s all good. And my roommate in college, she would walk in and go, &quot ; What are you making? That stuff really stinks!&quot ; I&#039 ; d go, &quot ; It&#039 ; s gâ kho. You&#039 ; ll like it. I mean, trust me.&quot ; So I did--she tried this, &quot ; Oh my God, this is the best thing!&quot ; And so when her parents came to visit during parents&#039 ; weekend, she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, Mom, Mom, Mom! You&#039 ; ve got to have this!&quot ; She goes, &quot ; It stinks so bad, but it&#039 ; s so good!&quot ; I had this other friend in college who&#039 ; s Vietnamese, and we had the challenge with roommates--because we both had a non-Vietnamese roommate--in trying to convert them to eating some Vietnamese food, so that-- |00:19:26| BRODY: Did it work? SCHROEDER: Like I said, especially gâ kho and some other dishes. I didn&#039 ; t make a lot. I asked my mom, &quot ; How do you make egg rolls?&quot ; And so I attempted to make this stuff, and what I&#039 ; ve learned is that a lot of these foods are very labor-intensive, and it&#039 ; s--now I know why, when we&#039 ; re growing up, the aunts and the moms are sitting there in the kitchen all day, and it tastes really good, but when I try to make it myself, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; This really takes a lot of time. Is the labor worth the treat?&quot ; I finally go, &quot ; You know what?&quot ; For me, it wasn&#039 ; t worth it. I can just go buy it at the Vietnamese restaurant down the street. Maybe not as good as Mom&#039 ; s, but surely better than wasting all the time to prep all that. So I did learn and get the recipes of some of them, but the only Vietnamese food I do make is the one that I kind of dumbed it down to the basics to keep it simple, but to make it the true authentic way was too much labor than what I really had the time to do. |00:20:26| BRODY: Right. Well, let&#039 ; s backtrack and go back to school age. Tell me about your childhood and moving on into middle school and high school. What did you do? What were you involved in? SCHROEDER: Okay. This is where I&#039 ; m, maybe, atypical, because I consider myself kind of like the black sheep of the Vietnamese girl. As much as I couldn&#039 ; t do certain things, I was really--I hung out with my brother a lot. We lived in the apartments and all played outside with the kids in the neighborhood, and they were all boys, so I hung out with boys and I was pretty much a tomboy. As you can tell from my mom and my parents, they&#039 ; re more traditional, so having a girl that more of a tomboy, who&#039 ; s not doing the girly things, that may have been not up their alley. So I remember in third grade, I played soccer, and so--and then, that was one year, then my mom was like, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not doing this drive, and girls don&#039 ; t play soccer.&quot ; And so I remember--so I still played soccer. Not formal organized sports, but I played soccer in the backyard with all the neighborhood boys and my brother, and so I learned to play street soccer, I guess you could call it. I remember when I--so that&#039 ; s only soccer, and I really enjoyed that, and when we went to high school, you can try out for sports, and I knew I couldn&#039 ; t try for the other sports ; one, because they all would require--I mean--and I&#039 ; m looking back now, I didn&#039 ; t realize. I mean, the school does provide the uniforms, but there&#039 ; s certain things that required parental expenses, so there&#039 ; s other sports that I couldn&#039 ; t do. Well, guess what? Soccer didn&#039 ; t really require that. They give you a uniform and you go and play, so I tried out for the soccer team and, at first--so I got cut. So they didn&#039 ; t have enough players for a JV team, and I didn&#039 ; t make the varsity team--so this is ninth grade--and by luck of the universe, they told the coach, You cannot cut people. You need to create a JV team. So he created a junior varsity soccer team. BRODY: And this was at Richardson? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) This was at Richardson High School. And so I played. My brother goes, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; so my brother watched me play, and the first thing his advice was, &quot ; Okay. I saw you playing out there. You were playing like a girl. You need to play soccer the way you play with us.&quot ; And so he goes, &quot ; Stop playing like a girl, and play the way you play when we&#039 ; re out there playing soccer.&quot ; So I started doing that, and so even by the end of the year, I made the varsity team. I got bumped up or whatever. I mean, it wasn&#039 ; t--but it&#039 ; s like--but I did. That was the sport that I did because--I&#039 ; ve said, the awareness of what we would afford or not. I just didn&#039 ; t want to add any expectation, so I did soccer, did well in school, made the Honor Society--the usual suspects, but I feel like back then a lot of the Vietnamese kids did that. We all knew kind of what our role-- school had an agenda. It&#039 ; s to graduate, to get to college, to make a living, to support yourself, and so that was always the initial agenda. |00:23:26| BRODY: Right. So you mentioned a lot of the Vietnamese kids. Was there a large Vietnamese community that you were involved in? SCHROEDER: No, I wasn&#039 ; t so much. I think my parents--I know growing up they had their friends, so we had some friends that we grew up as family friends. BRODY: Did they mostly live in Richardson? SCHROEDER: They didn&#039 ; t live in Richardson. Some of them lived in, like, Garland or whatever. I remember one of the friends that we really hung out with, both my brother and I, with his family, they--I remember in middle school, all of a sudden, it was like, &quot ; Wow. Why is Mom and Dad hanging out with the parents, and why aren&#039 ; t we going along anymore?&quot ; I mean, when we grew up, it was like a close family-knit weekends and stuff. And so I guess at that point, during that time, there was a lot of Vietnamese gangs that were brewing and in the neighborhood, so I guess--later found out they got caught up in the gang, and that&#039 ; s when my parents kind of segregated us because they didn&#039 ; t want us to get involved in that. At that point, we didn&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s going on. We&#039 ; re like, Why aren&#039 ; t we hanging out with them anymore? Why aren&#039 ; t we going with them? So my parents--so there&#039 ; s a lot of kids getting into wrong, so they did the helicopter parenting and kind of, you know, We don&#039 ; t want to get into in this mess, we don&#039 ; t want to expose them. So they kind of did their own separation to keep us out. And within the school community there were a few Vietnamese, but I don&#039 ; t think there was tons like some schools. I think back then, Richardson--I was at Richardson High School. I think Berkner had more of the Vietnamese community than Richardson, but the ones that were in Richardson--I mean, I think we all kind of intermingled just fine within the school, culturally, so I don&#039 ; t-- |00:25:06| BRODY: Were there functions that your family attended, or--you mentioned that you went to the church and continued going to the church. Was that something that you stayed involved in as a family? SCHROEDER: No. I think that kind of died down, probably more in middle school. I think at that point, I think my mom did appreciate what the church did for us, but her true calling was probably Buddhism, and so I think at that point, more--there were some temples that were coming up, so I think she started going more to that, but that was more of her personal thing. Dad&#039 ; s more not as religious, and so, no, we weren&#039 ; t as involved. BRODY: And so as kids, you didn&#039 ; t-- SCHROEDER: Not so much. Yeah. I think Mom did what she needed to do, but as far as--she&#039 ; s really--I think she kind of watched not to get integrated so much, and this, that, and the other. I think a lot of the families that we knew--that they knew that more of the Catholic families probably were more involved in the community with the churches and stuff like that, but my mom kind of was more of stand-back kind of person ; didn&#039 ; t want to--kind of kept her distance, I think, for whatever reason. |00:26:18| BRODY: That&#039 ; s interesting. So the gangs that you were talking about before, what kind of--do you remember? Can you tell me what they were doing? SCHROEDER: Oh, yeah. So we knew families, like some of my parents&#039 ; friends. I mean, they would rob. I guess they would rob. Basically, everyone that they--the gangs would basically target other Vietnamese families, so they don&#039 ; t target people outside the Vietnamese community. They would target a Vietnamese family, rob them, or do whatever, and they would threaten them that, If you report this, then we&#039 ; re going to kill this other member of your family, so they kind of knew the ins and outs of everybody. They would rob people in their weddings--their wedding days. There was people getting shot. I mean, so a lot of this stuff was going on, but it was really under the radar, from what I understand--but like I said, because a lot of them were threatening that, If you say anything or report or whatever, we will target your family members. BRODY: Wow. That sounds really scary, actually. What do you think drove those people into that type of life? SCHROEDER: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. But I think they were targeting the younger kids. Maybe a sense of belonging? I&#039 ; m not sure, because I think when parents came to America, a lot of them--both parents were working. Lot of the moms--so everyone&#039 ; s working, and those teenage years, you never know. They&#039 ; re easily influenced. |00:27:48| BRODY: Right. Earlier when you were talking about soccer, you mentioned that you guys lived in an apartment initially. Tell me about your experience in housing. Did you-- how long did you stay in the apartment? SCHROEDER: Okay. So from what I recall, when we first came to America, the church helped sponsored us and got us a place to live, an apartment for all eleven of us. I think it was, like, a three-bedroom apartment. So it was like--my grandparents got a room. I think my family, the four of us, and then all the other siblings--so I think they helped us the first month or two, and kind of get us started with donations and things like that. At that point, they kind of helped my dad and grandfather find a job, and at that point, you&#039 ; re kind of left to take care of yourself. So I think we all stayed together for a while, and then at some point--I don&#039 ; t know when, I don&#039 ; t remember what age I was--we moved into our own apartment--my parents--my family of four. We got a two-bedroom apartment right around the corner in a different complex not too far from there. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Where was--still Richardson. SCHROEDER: It was still in Richardson. It was over there in--no. Well, it&#039 ; s over there off, like, Spring Valley [Road] and Whatever, and the address--I remember the address: 8636 Lazy Acre Circle. That&#039 ; s where we lived, and I think at some point, my grandparents probably got into, maybe, some government housing, and so they moved further away. In retrospect, it&#039 ; s really not that far now that I&#039 ; m driving, but so it was like--it was my grandparents and then the siblings--or my dad&#039 ; s siblings. There was four of them, and so they stayed with my grandparents, and like I said, my parents and I were in our place, and then as well as my aunt, who kind of was--I call her my aunt, but she kind of--she was adopted by my parents, so she was kind of like a child laborer in Vietnam that was there to play with us and help out with the kids, so she came to America with us, so she chose to come with us. When I say &quot ; our family of four,&quot ; it was the four of us plus her. And so my grandparents lived somewhere else--not too far, still in Dallas. And then I think I was in fourth or fifth grade where we moved into the house that they&#039 ; re at now. That was a big thing for them that, Hey, we made something of ourselves and we were able to put money away to buy a house. The funny thing is, their biggest thing was, We want to buy in a good school district, and in their mind, all they knew was Richardson, and Richardson&#039 ; s a good school district, so they just wanted to make sure they buy in a Richardson school district, so that was their focus on where we&#039 ; re buying a home. |00:30:33| BRODY: That&#039 ; s a huge accomplishment to have come and started from scratch and buy a home, right? The American dream. Tell me about that house and the neighborhood and how moving into the house changed your life. SCHROEDER: My parents--it wasn&#039 ; t far from where we were. I guess it was kind of neat because at that point my aunt has already moved out and so it was just my parents, and then I got my own room and my brother got his own room. So that was kind of a neat thing, like, Oh, we have our own rooms! So that was--I think that&#039 ; s all I really recall. BRODY: How&#039 ; d you decorate your room? SCHROEDER: Okay. The whole decorating thing--that&#039 ; s not part of the--there was no decorating, really. I mean, it&#039 ; s kind of like, &quot ; Hey, I got my own room,&quot ; which is more than enough, right? So really, it&#039 ; s just your bed--and oh, I remember shopping for a desk, and so that was a big thing, is I get to pick my own desk. I got one of those with the rolling tops. (laughs) Now that I look back, it was kind of hideous, but I really liked it back then. And then my brother picked out his, so our big purchase for the room was probably our desk for school, and as you can tell, education was really big for my parents. BRODY: How did they communicate that to you, that education was your priority? What were--when you think about that? SCHROEDER: You know, I don&#039 ; t even know. I just think that it was embedded in us. We just kind of knew. We just kind of knew that this is--you go to school, you make good grades, you do this, and you--and that&#039 ; s how you go to college and make a better living, I guess. |00:32:04| BRODY: Do you feel like you had a pretty typical American childhood? SCHROEDER: No. There was nothing typical about it. I mean, I felt like I was caged. I mean, for me--and you know what--and it&#039 ; s--but not really. I mean caged in a sense like, hey, everyone can do this, everyone can do--you know, and I had my guidelines of what I could and couldn&#039 ; t do. We had our expectations, which is probably normal for most people--like, you know, we got up on Saturday mornings, mowed the lawn, weed the grass, we did the dishes, we did the--but that was our role in the house. Mom and Dad had to go to work, make a living. That&#039 ; s their time of rest. Dinners, we cook and clean. I remember cleaning the bathrooms, vacuuming--those were just kind of all the normal things that we had to do, but looking back, I&#039 ; m grateful for that because part of life isn&#039 ; t just about school and isn&#039 ; t just about your work, it&#039 ; s about also maintaining the daily functions that keep things nice and orderly. If you don&#039 ; t do your part, everything becomes a mess. But like I said, the sleepovers, the parties, the slumber parties, the--and things that I had to learn all on my own. If I look back, it&#039 ; s like when I went to junior high. There was a couple girls that, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re trying out for athletics!&quot ; &quot ; What&#039 ; s athletics?&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know that. I just got the schedule. &quot ; Here, you sign up for these classes, and then you do PE.&quot ; I think if I knew then something differently, I probably would&#039 ; ve tried out for athletics. I think there&#039 ; s some things that we had to learn with the limited knowledge--we did the next steps of what&#039 ; s being provided, but I think all the extra stuff I was unaware of. But that&#039 ; s to be said. Some people just kind of know more about the system, what goes on, and others didn&#039 ; t, but we did what we knew. So there&#039 ; s things I would&#039 ; ve done. I may have tried out for athletics. I may have done these other things. BRODY: So high school in Richardson during the 1980s--what was that--can you describe what you remember of that time? SCHROEDER: Um--(pauses to think) |00:34:16| BRODY: How did you spend your time? SCHROEDER: Yeah. My time was so boring. (Brody laughs) Like I said, I played soccer, had friends from that. I didn&#039 ; t go to a prom or any of the dances because you&#039 ; re not supposed to. I didn&#039 ; t go to football games because Mom was like, &quot ; You&#039 ; re not going to go to a football game. What if you get shot? Some gangs are there.&quot ; So she&#039 ; s really--I think part of this, I wouldn&#039 ; t say, is a cultural thing. I think part of it is the type of parents I had. She was just overly protective in that regard, so I&#039 ; m going to account that to her personality, versus my--a cultural thing, because I had friends who could that were Vietnamese--could do these things. But no, I did what I was supposed to do. That&#039 ; s why soccer was my outlet, because guess what? I have to go to a soccer game. &quot ; Sorry Mom, got to go. We&#039 ; ll be home later.&quot ; That was kind of like my outlet to get out the door, and it was related to school, so I could do that. I can&#039 ; t remember which organizations I was in, but just doing all the things--the protocol stuff that school required, but really nothing extra outside of that. |00:35:29| BRODY: Given that your parents didn&#039 ; t go to college in this country, how did you navigate the sort of getting in and figuring out where you wanted to go to college? I mean, you&#039 ; d worked hard in your grades, but how did you figure out what to do next after high school? SCHROEDER: There wasn&#039 ; t much thought process into that. I mean, my uncles were older, so they just went through. One went to UT [University of Texas], one went to [Texas] A&amp ; M. My brother was already at UT. So I didn&#039 ; t think much more about where I wanted to go, or we didn&#039 ; t do college visits or anything like that. It was pretty much, like, the next step. Like, here you went from junior high to high school, and the next step was probably going to be UT. Why? Because it&#039 ; s familiar. My uncle went there. My brother went there. It was the familiar thing to do, and UT had that, what, top whatever percent gets in, so really, there--I didn&#039 ; t have to navigate the SATs and all that. I got automatic admissions, so it was pretty much the next step. The thought process? There wasn&#039 ; t much. It was kind of the next thing to do, which sounds kind of not very exciting, but it is what it is, right? |00:36:33| BRODY: It is exciting to go to college, so what--did your parents take you? Did you just-- SCHROEDER: Oh, no. No. They didn&#039 ; t. It was pretty--I remember--like I said, my brother was already there, so my uncles did provide some guidance. They were saying, Okay, if you guys take some of this community college and do it there, so we did. After I graduated from high school, that summer I did take some college at Richland College, like the English classes or whatever, just to knock those out, and we--my brother and I-- I remember leaving. I was excited to go to college, and put our stuff in the car, and then we drove off, and that&#039 ; s it. Parents didn&#039 ; t come. My parent&#039 ; s didn&#039 ; t come with me. They never moved me in, ever. So went off to college, we moved in a dorm, moved myself in, my brother moved himself in, and that was that. And I guarantee--then that&#039 ; s when the sadness hits, and not in the sense of that. It&#039 ; s just kind of like, Oh my gosh, because you&#039 ; re in a new place, new people, and you haven&#039 ; t formed your people yet. I came back and visited the next month, and I was bawling leaving. I was like, Oh my gosh! But after the first semester, you&#039 ; re fine. But they never came to UT ever while I was there in the four years, but my friends who were there that I met--parents&#039 ; weekend, I hung out with them and their families, so I was kind of like the adopted child because Dai&#039 ; s parents aren&#039 ; t there, (laughs) but they didn&#039 ; t--that just wasn&#039 ; t them, right. It&#039 ; s like, that was the next step. You go. But they did show up on graduation day when I graduated, so that&#039 ; s the first time they were there for me when I was in college. There were there for my brother when he graduated, went to graduation, and then went to my graduation, but that&#039 ; s--otherwise, they were never there my whole college years. |00:38:15| BRODY: What did you study? SCHROEDER: I studied pharmacy, but that&#039 ; s kind of a funny story. I tell the kids this story all the time. I actually got into the business school, which is what I was going to do, and like I said, I have an older brother who thinks I&#039 ; m always trying to follow in his footsteps. So one day he goes, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re going to go to business school? Why do you always do everything I do and follow in my footsteps?&quot ; I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh, seriously?&quot ; So being me, that kind of rebellious--you know, that trait that I had, I was like, &quot ; Fine. Then, I won&#039 ; t go to business school.&quot ; Knowing now, I should&#039 ; ve stuck with business school and taken the pre-pharmacy school as electives, and then applied to pharmacy school, but instead, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Okay, fine. I&#039 ; ll let them know that I&#039 ; m not going to go to business school, and I&#039 ; m going to get into another one of the schools.&quot ; That was kind of stupid because the business school&#039 ; s harder to get into than all the other schools, but whatever. So I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Fine. I&#039 ; m not going to do that,&quot ; and so my dad, being that my dad-- remember, their goal is to go to school so that you can get a career to take care of yourself. The passion part of it doesn&#039 ; t ring in the head. To follow your passion of what you want to do was not an option--plus, I didn&#039 ; t know what my passion was. I remember him going, &quot ; Well, what about this?&quot ; and, &quot ; What about this?&quot ; and, &quot ; What about this?&quot ; I go, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t like that. Don&#039 ; t like that. Don&#039 ; t like that,&quot ; and then he finally just goes, &quot ; Of all those things we listed, which one do you least hate, and pick that.&quot ; So that just kind of shows you how it&#039 ; s not about passion but, Okay, we know you don&#039 ; t like these things but, okay, pick the ones that you least hate. But no, it wasn&#039 ; t that. So after my brother was telling me, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re just following in my footsteps,&quot ; my mom and I happened to be at Tom Thumb that day. (laughs) She was picking a prescription at the pharmacy, and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh! That&#039 ; s a job! Huh. Maybe I could do that.&quot ; And that was the day I was like, &quot ; Fine. I&#039 ; ll be a pharmacist.&quot ; There was no other thought into that whatsoever but, &quot ; Okay, I&#039 ; ll be a pharmacist,&quot ; and the rest is history. (laughs) BRODY: Right. So you graduated with a pharmacy degree. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Degree, yeah. I then switched my school over to natural sciences, and then applied into pharmacy school. |00:40:29| BRODY: So are you working as a pharmacist? SCHROEDER: I was. The funny thing is, all the pharmacy students and classmates I had--and of all the people who would least likely be a pharmacist five years after we graduate, they probably could have picked me as being that person. As today, I&#039 ; m no longer a pharmacist. I&#039 ; m doing more IT in pharmacy, which is--I need my pharmacy--it all worked out, but it&#039 ; s just kind of funny how life takes you on this journey to where you are. But that&#039 ; s how it came about. There wasn&#039 ; t a thought like, I love pharmacy. It was just a matter of not doing business because my brother told me I was following his footsteps. (laughs) |00:41:07| BRODY: That&#039 ; s pretty funny. You mentioned earlier that you introduced your roommate in college to some Vietnamese food and that you had another friend who was also--was Vietnamese and had a roommate who was not Vietnamese. Was there a large population at UT of Vietnamese students? SCHROEDER: I think there was. There&#039 ; s a Vietnamese Student Association. I never got involved with that. I don&#039 ; t know. There was a part of me that just didn&#039 ; t want to feel like, Hey, I&#039 ; m Vietnamese, I&#039 ; m going to try--so maybe, as I said earlier, I didn&#039 ; t think I was trying to assimilate, but I guess sometimes part of me was like, I&#039 ; m just going to be like everyone else and not be so--so I didn&#039 ; t join VSA or anything like that, but there was a huge community of that. I met her just through one of the classes and, lo and behold, she grew up in--her parents had a place in Irving, so we got--but her family was so different from my family. Her family has more of that community feel and they did more of that, so that just kind of made me realize that it&#039 ; s not--all Vietnamese families aren&#039 ; t the same. It&#039 ; s just like in America. Not all families are the same. Every family operates, have different--how they want to raise their families and things like that, so that&#039 ; s where I realized it&#039 ; s not just a cultural thing, it&#039 ; s an individual thing. |00:42:20| BRODY: Right. So on that note, you didn&#039 ; t--you were trying to assimilate with different experiences and trying different things. Did you experience or observe any discrimination or racism as you were either growing up or since then? SCHROEDER: You know, I don&#039 ; t--I would say yes, I guess it&#039 ; s there, and whether I block it out or not, I don&#039 ; t know. I mean, I know that people use the word chink and all that stuff, or F-O-B, but I never took it to offense of, Oh, you&#039 ; re--that didn&#039 ; t bother me so much. I guess it&#039 ; s just a matter of fact of like, Okay, yeah. Well, we&#039 ; re Asian, and you&#039 ; re not. I mean--but it&#039 ; s just, when you hear it enough, I guess it&#039 ; s--everyone takes it differently, right? I mean, you can take it and be like, Yeah, we are Asian. We are different. But we&#039 ; re not different. So at the end of the day, if I say that you&#039 ; re Indian or someone else is black, it&#039 ; s a fact, so why should I take offense to the fact that--well, &quot ; chink&quot ; --okay, I do say something with &quot ; chink&quot ; because chink is Chinese and I&#039 ; m Vietnamese, so there&#039 ; s--you kind of categorize that, but I&#039 ; m just--I think that, Yeah, we are Asian, so why would I take--I guess I see it more like, Okay, yeah. That&#039 ; s a fact, but why don&#039 ; t you get over that fact and just look at us as people? BRODY: Do you think that there were ever examples or instances where you didn&#039 ; t get to do something or you were kept out of something for those reasons? SCHROEDER: I don&#039 ; t think so. I think my mom kept me on such a tight leash that I think she was the one that kept me from things before I get a chance to feel it from other people. I mean, I&#039 ; m sure maybe I would have. I think my brother probably felt more like--that he worked harder to not be that way, but I guess my mom had me on a different rein than he was, and we&#039 ; re also different people in how we react, but I think she restricted me so much that (laughs) no one could restrict me any more than what she had. |00:44:34| BRODY: Growing up, did you have friends that were all different cultures, races, ethnicities? SCHROEDER: Yeah. Most of the friends I met were within school, and so whoever was at school, those were the friends. Whether--it wasn&#039 ; t based on any ethnicity or what have you. BRODY: Right. You were kind of engaged with lots of different groups in terms of just having a--like we talking about before, just a normal American life. Yeah. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Normal. It was what you called &quot ; normal.&quot ; If I weren&#039 ; t Vietnamese and I was still the same--a different race, it probably would&#039 ; ve been the same. |00:45:05| BRODY: That brings me to another set of questions about your identity. How do you think about yourself in terms of your identity? I mean, your experience has been in two different countries--even though you were very young when you first came, but your parents as refugees and immigrants assimilating and trying to fit into a new life here and building a new life here, their experience is different than yours as a child growing up here. How do you think of yourself in terms of your identity? SCHROEDER: Hm. That&#039 ; s a tough--well, hm. As far as from a individual or racial perspective or what? |00:45:49| BRODY: (both speaking at once) Just your own, when you think about who you are. SCHROEDER: Well, I think with that, it&#039 ; s kind of a self-discovery every day, because I think for so long as a child growing up, I think all the way even through college or up until college, I kind of was like, Be the person that your parents expect or want you to be. I think for so long it wasn&#039 ; t about me or what I wanted. It was more about, This is what you need to do. So I think, as I started to get--even though I was kind of rebellious, I still was rebellious within constrained limits of what you should or shouldn&#039 ; t do. I think as I got into college--I think there was some more of a self-discovery. I mean, I remember--I mean, this is a funny story--not that funny--but I grew--I studied well, did well in school, and so I think when I went to college I&#039 ; m like, Everyone knows me as being a good student. I wonder what would happen if I&#039 ; m not a good student. (laughs) And so I didn&#039 ; t study as much. I didn&#039 ; t do that, because I didn&#039 ; t want to be--I felt like--I don&#039 ; t know how people view me, so don&#039 ; t--but my own perception is people just thought, Okay, she does well, she studies, she&#039 ; s smart, and I didn&#039 ; t want to be known for that, so I kind of studied a little less, kind of slacked off. I kind of figured out that I was probably wrong all along. People probably didn&#039 ; t see me that way, but I felt like maybe that&#039 ; s how I was viewing myself and I portrayed that and how others may see me, so I kind of laid back in that regards. I think there&#039 ; s a time where--when my mom always did this whole thing. &quot ; Hey, Mom. Can I do this?&quot ; &quot ; Well, you know what the right answer is.&quot ; It&#039 ; s kind of like the right expectation of, Yeah, I know what her answer&#039 ; s going to be, but I was going to ask, &quot ; Can I do this?&quot ; because I really wanted to do this other thing. So I guess in college, I finally kind of--there was--they had a group of friends who were going skiing over Christmas, and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Hey, Mom. Can I do this?&quot ; Okay, she did not want me to go, and then she would go, &quot ; Well, ask your father,&quot ; and he didn&#039 ; t want to give the answer, so he goes, &quot ; Ask your mother.&quot ; It went back and forth for a while. He goes, &quot ; Well, you know what you should do,&quot ; or, &quot ; Do what you want to do.&quot ; So for the first time in my life I finally said, &quot ; You know what I want to do, and that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m going to do if you&#039 ; re not going to give me an answer.&quot ; And so they didn&#039 ; t give me an answer. So along come Christmas. It was a very tense Christmas, (Brody laughs) and then I needed someone to drop me off where they were going to pick--the charter bus was going to take all of us, so it was silence all the way through. They know I was going, but I think it was the first time where I&#039 ; m kind of like, &quot ; You know? If I want to do something enough, then sometimes they&#039 ; re just going to--I&#039 ; m going to have to disappoint them.&quot ; And what I&#039 ; ve learned is, there&#039 ; s--they may expected me to do certain things, but there&#039 ; s some choices I need to make myself, and yeah, they might be disappointed, but I learned that they&#039 ; ll get over it. So once I&#039 ; ve learned that they&#039 ; ll get over it, there&#039 ; s some things that, if I want it bad enough, I&#039 ; ve learned to kind of not let that hold me back. That&#039 ; s kind of a self-discovery. As I got older, just be able to let them know--because I guess--thinking back now, talking about this, I guess I did let them have a lot of control over what I did or didn&#039 ; t do, always thinking about my choices, How are they going to react to it? So now, that takes--it&#039 ; s still in the back burner, but that still takes precedent, like, Okay, what would they want? But you know what? Their thoughts and viewpoints are different than mine, and so it&#039 ; s okay to be--to make my own choices that, Hey, I can see where they&#039 ; re coming from with that, but here&#039 ; s why I&#039 ; m doing this choice, so to be able to evaluate those type of decisions as I&#039 ; m older. I guess that&#039 ; s more of a self-discovery. And then there&#039 ; s things that it&#039 ; s like, Okay. Well, I don&#039 ; t want to go there with them, so we&#039 ; ll just kind of let that be. But I think as an adult and getting older, I think that&#039 ; s one of the biggest lessons and discoveries. So I think, to me, it seems like more of navigating the parentals than it is the rest of the world. |00:49:50| BRODY: I mean, I&#039 ; m curious how--and maybe you don&#039 ; t know the answer to this question because maybe you can&#039 ; t know it, but--how much of that is informed by your family&#039 ; s whole journey and experience as refugees, and how much of that is just being the person that you are and the parents that you have? SCHROEDER: I think maybe a combination of both. I think a combination of both, because I just know that I was so young that I probably wasn&#039 ; t as impacted about the immigrating over here as maybe someone a little bit older or my parents, because I think I look back and go, Wow, my parents were in the twenties when that happened. What was I doing in my twenties? I&#039 ; m like, Wow. What choices would I have made if that were me? How would have impacted me? And I just think there&#039 ; s such a huge--it&#039 ; s a very traumatic experience, now that I think about it, to uplift your family, going somewhere you don&#039 ; t know. So I think with the experience that they had, it makes me wonder, Would my life or would their mindset on raising people--raising us would have been different, they didn&#039 ; t have that experience? I mean, granted, it&#039 ; s a different country, but just that traumatic experience and how you view life from that standpoint, I think that--I can&#039 ; t see how it can&#039 ; t impact people and affect them in their decisions later in life, so I kind of wonder, would my mom been a different mom, if it wasn&#039 ; t for that experience? I don&#039 ; t know--and where we are. So I think it&#039 ; s a combination of experience in life and what happens. |00:51:32| BRODY: I know you mentioned your kids, so you&#039 ; re married and you&#039 ; ve got two kids. Tell me about that part of your journey. SCHROEDER: Okay. I remember growing up, and (laughs) this sounds so bad, but my mom is very--my dad is more of an open-minded person. Life is good. Mom is more of, like, images, how people perceive you and things like that, so I think I got a combination of both. I just think--engrained, I got a combination of both good and bad traits. I remember just growing up, knowing that my personality is so much more--not your typical Vietnamese girl, I guess--that I was more outspoken. Like, rules in a household, it&#039 ; s like as kids, you&#039 ; re not supposed to talk back to your elders. That&#039 ; s just--you don&#039 ; t do that. I didn&#039 ; t view it as talking back. I viewed it as, Okay, you spoke your stance. Let me tell you my side of the story. That&#039 ; s considered being rude and disrespectful, and I didn&#039 ; t think that&#039 ; s fair because I felt like I want to give you my side of the story. And so I remember my mom--my mom was kind of judgy. I think she&#039 ; s come a long way, but back then she was kind of judgy. I think the reason why her Vietnamese didn&#039 ; t expand as quickly is because she was afraid that if I say it wrong--she&#039 ; s a perfectionist. That&#039 ; s kind of a trait I kind of have, but I&#039 ; ve learned to not let--try to not let that hold me back in growing. And so she&#039 ; s afraid to say it wrong, so she never would speak it, and afraid that someone might laugh at her for saying it the wrong way. |00:53:07| BRODY: Oh, you mean her English? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) My mom. Yeah, her English. My dad, on the other hand--man, his English wasn&#039 ; t perfect, but he wasn&#039 ; t afraid to speak it, so his English kind of progressed better because he used it. But she would make comments-- and then she grew up--had a different background than my dad, but she&#039 ; s--kind of has a little bit more of a, &quot ; This is how things should be,&quot ; so I remember, she used to make a comment going--I think she knew of a lady who came to America and remarried a non- Vietnamese person, and so she made a comment about that. And I remember as a kid, I just really didn&#039 ; t like her making comments like that, and I just kind of go, Well, you better be careful because your daughter might be one of those people! Well, guess what? (Brody laughs) To answer your question, I was one of those people because I married outside of the race, and I knew that it was going to be a shocker for them, but the one thing I have to say for my parents, and maybe a lot of parents of that generation--they did come over here for so long stuck on a certain way. You&#039 ; ve got to marry--they had a vision of what you&#039 ; re supposed to marry. If you don&#039 ; t do that, you kind of got nixed from the family. It did happen to some of the friends where they met somebody, she wasn&#039 ; t from the same part of the country or--I mean, so then they kind of broke ties, and the parents and the child doesn&#039 ; t speak anymore. So I think that they&#039 ; ve come a long way in the sense of recognizing that that&#039 ; s kind of stupid, so kudos to them for that, but-- |00:54:35| BRODY: So you mean that Vietnamese families who were all over here had a preference as to who their kids married, as to what part of Vietnam their family was from? SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) Or of same religion, or some like that. It was like, they&#039 ; ve got to--if their Catholics, you want to marry Catholics only, or if they&#039 ; re Buddhist, then Buddhists only, or, Oh, he&#039 ; s from this small town. He&#039 ; s not from this. So they&#039 ; re very-- BRODY: Even though they&#039 ; re all living over here? SCHROEDER: Yes. So they would go, Oh, well, that family&#039 ; s from whatever. They would look down. I mean, it&#039 ; s just kind of very judgy, so--even though they&#039 ; re Vietnamese, so I finally just realized, You know what? If I were to find a Vietnamese guy, he probably won&#039 ; t be from the same part of the country. He probably won&#039 ; t be the-- they&#039 ; ll find something wrong with him, so why does it matter? So I&#039 ; ll just marry whoever I want! So I met Jerry, so we got married. My parents were like--Dad, as open-minded as I thought he was, he wasn&#039 ; t as open-minded. I mean, he acted like he was fine but he wasn&#039 ; t, because we didn&#039 ; t talk for a while once we met. I mean, we talked, but we didn&#039 ; t talk about that. But he--so one day--I mean, this is really funny. Jerry would laugh about this. So Dad just goes, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know anything about him,&quot ; and stuff. &quot ; I need his social security number to do a whole background check and everything on him.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Are you kidding me? This is so wrong!&quot ; I mean, Jerry gave his social security number! (laughs) He didn&#039 ; t have anything to hide! My dad is like, &quot ; Oh, he&#039 ; s Canadian, and so who&#039 ; s to say he doesn&#039 ; t have a wife and kids somewhere up in Canada? You don&#039 ; t know anything about him, so I need his social security to do a whole background check.&quot ; So Jerry openly--he gave it to him. Like I said, he didn&#039 ; t care. And I finally one day just went to my dad. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; You know what? I really have a problem with you doing that. What are you going to do with his social security number?&quot ; He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Well, I want to check.&quot ; I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Okay. My uncles got married, or they met someone. Did y&#039 ; all do a background check on them?&quot ; I go, &quot ; You&#039 ; re only doing it because he&#039 ; s not Vietnamese,&quot ; and he goes, &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not why.&quot ; I go, &quot ; Bologna. That is why you&#039 ; re going behind my back complaining about him, because he&#039 ; s not--you&#039 ; re not saying he&#039 ; s not Vietnamese because you&#039 ; re assuming. You don&#039 ; t think you are, but you are. It&#039 ; s because he&#039 ; s not Vietnamese. I&#039 ; m just going to point.&quot ; I go--because this is at a point, because my dad and I were really close, and so that&#039 ; s just the one thing that--so I just had to just put it out there, because the silence--we knew what we were avoiding. And so I go, &quot ; What about Uncle So-and-So, and he--did y&#039 ; all go and do a background check on her?&quot ; And &quot ; Did you go do this?&quot ; &quot ; No.&quot ; I go, &quot ; Why?&quot ; He goes, &quot ; Well, they&#039 ; re Vietnamese, so we can kind of know within their family all this other stuff and get the information that we need.&quot ; I go, &quot ; I&#039 ; m really sure that you went through that much detail to make sure that she wasn&#039 ; t this and this. That is bologna, of why you&#039 ; re doing that.&quot ; So I called them on that. So then once we got past that conversation, it was all in open. We were all good. So he did do that and he didn&#039 ; t realize it, that he was being that way--because, like I said, he&#039 ; s usually open-minded, but I think it&#039 ; s just that whole unknown. But it&#039 ; s also because--and then later, as we got married, some of their other friends&#039 ; kids got married, they married non- Vietnamese, it seemed to be more acceptable, but at that time people weren&#039 ; t. And so as it&#039 ; s become that there&#039 ; s interracial marriages, it became more acceptable to them, but I think they have a hard time with it, even though they don&#039 ; t want to admit it. |00:57:55| BRODY: How did you meet, and how did you first introduce Jerry to your parents? SCHROEDER: Okay. So Jerry will have a different story than my story. When Jerry and I met through an acquaintance, and then we ran into each other again at Chuy&#039 ; s or whatever and just had a conversation, and we just--the rest is history. But my mom was in Vietnam visiting my mother and stuff, and so Dad and I went to dinner at Cheesecake Factory, and then Jerry was around so I invited Jerry to come with us. I introduced him as my friend because we were just dating. We weren&#039 ; t girlfriend and boyfriend yet. Well, I guess Dad went off and got all upset and was talking to the aunts and uncles, telling them, &quot ; How rude that she introduced him--she didn&#039 ; t introduce him as a boyfriend. It&#039 ; s just a friend, blah, blah, blah.&quot ; Well, I guess I never introduced him to anybody else, so I guess I never put the two and two together that, Oh, he thought this was more than it is. I didn&#039 ; t think anything of it, but yeah, that&#039 ; s how he was introduced. It was &quot ; a friend,&quot ; and he was not pleased with the fact that I didn&#039 ; t introduce him as my boyfriend, which I didn&#039 ; t see him as a boyfriend at the time. He was just a friend. So that was the--and so, that kind of started off that bumpy road, I guess. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) Sounds like it. SCHROEDER: It was a miscommunication, but it led down this bumpy road for a while. |00:59:14| BRODY: So all these years have passed. You&#039 ; ve got two kids. Tell me about the kids. SCHROEDER: I have two boys, so they&#039 ; re growing up in an interracial marriage or what have you--two different--I thought Jerry and I had more of the similar raising, but it&#039 ; s different. I just think the Asian ways of raising children is very different than the Western culture. BRODY: How so? SCHROEDER: Well, now that I understand Jerry&#039 ; s parents and family better--I mean, they&#039 ; re more easy-going--live life, enjoy it, academics is fine, you go to school, and everything will fall into place, kind of thing. Like, everything just works out, which is a very nice, relaxed mentality, but my innate nature and what I grew up with and still part of, to the core, that I am--I mean, I try to be more relaxed, but yes, I believe that education is important, you got to do well in school, these are your responsibilities. You&#039 ; ve got to nurture the work ethics and things, and just not let it just all--&quot ; it will all work out.&quot ; I mean, that&#039 ; s a great mentality. I just think there&#039 ; s a happy medium in the middle, but it&#039 ; s kind of like the battling of this, &quot ; It&#039 ; ll all work out,&quot ; to--I agree that the Asian way or--it&#039 ; s very kind of rigid, where I&#039 ; ve learned--I&#039 ; ve recognized that and recognizing that. And I think the biggest part of that was, I would&#039 ; ve turned completely into my mother, if it wasn&#039 ; t for--we discovered Montessori when the kids were younger. I didn&#039 ; t know what Montessori was. It just happened to be like, &quot ; Oh!&quot ; When my oldest was two, I was like, &quot ; He needs to socialize with other kids,&quot ; so we were just kind of, &quot ; Oh, look, there&#039 ; s this nice school in the neighborhood. Let&#039 ; s go check it out,&quot ; and we realized we liked the way the kids were behaving and the manners and what they were teaching them, so I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Hey. Why not put them in here so he can socialize, learn daily skills, and then eventually just go move off into public school and move to a different neighborhood?&quot ; So we got caught up in this whole Montessori, but I think that as good as it was for the kids, I think it was probably more helpful for me without even recognizing it. They taught me--because I think the Asian person, we tried to do so much for our kids. We want to raise him. We want to--everything&#039 ; s got to be done right, like there&#039 ; s a regimen. And they taught me, Oh, what? My eighteen-month-old can hold a cup and drink it by himself without a sippy? What? They can do this? I didn&#039 ; t recognize what these little beings are capable of and Montessori showed me that. They taught me this whole other side of letting a kid be their kid without suffocating them, which I guarantee I would have been. I know I would have been. My mom&#039 ; s kind of like that. It&#039 ; s all I know. And it taught me to recognize this other way, but it also taught me to recognize my natural instincts and how to catch that, and so that&#039 ; s where I felt like, Okay, easy-going. That makes sense to a certain degree, but you can&#039 ; t let them loose in that--I can&#039 ; t let my kids loose in that world because I&#039 ; m just not like that. I still feel like I need to control that. So I think that, to me, is where that balance is, and I think Jerry, on the other hand, still doesn&#039 ; t get why I&#039 ; m so concerned--like, It&#039 ; ll all come in place. Well, no, because then I try to point out--trying not to be mean, but certain things--&quot ; Well, look at this, this, and this. How did that turn out for So-and-So? How did that?&quot ; I&#039 ; m not saying that what I&#039 ; m doing is right, but I&#039 ; m trying to provide them the tools that hopefully--I know this doesn&#039 ; t work and this doesn&#039 ; t work, so at least what I&#039 ; m trying maybe is better than those two things. I guess that&#039 ; s where it is in raising the kids that&#039 ; s a little bit kind of different and challenges the totally-free-for-all versus the other. |01:03:18| BRODY: (both speaking at once) Right. So there&#039 ; s two different sides of personality and culture, but speaking of culture, are the kids--have you taught them a lot about Vietnamese culture? Or how have you balanced that? SCHROEDER: Unfortunately not, because I don&#039 ; t think my parents did too much of that, which, looking back, I wish they would have. But I think for them, they were just trying to assimilate into a new country and getting us assimilated. I think their goal was, How do we get them to best fit in? So I think they kind of let that piece go, and I think it&#039 ; s quite unfortunate. I just--but I don&#039 ; t--how are you supposed to know? How are you supposed to know that, Hey, I can still keep these cultures and these standards as they move forward into this other culture? Because other families have done it, but that was because they were so in that community, but I think they were just like, Hey, how do we make them adjust the best into this new world? So they kind of assimilated as much into that that I think we lost this piece. |01:04:22| BRODY: What--I mean, if you could think of a few things that are--to you, that distill what it means to be Vietnamese, what would you say? SCHROEDER: I would say family. The family unit is probably the big thing. I mean, no matter how--I just think that the eleven of us that came--I mean, even though we&#039 ; re dispersed throughout the US--I mean, I have cousins now that were born in the US. My little brother was born in the US. I just feel like there&#039 ; s a connection between the eleven of us that came, even though the age difference. My grandparents have passed away, but the aunts and uncles--I think the core of the eleven that came--I think there&#039 ; s just a bond and a history that can&#039 ; t be taken away, and just--but I think it&#039 ; s not just about being Vietnamese, I think it&#039 ; s just the--when we came here, because I think Vietnam has changed a lot since we left too, so the culture over there--I think everyone&#039 ; s just trying to survive and make the best, but as a culture, I just think the family unit of sticking together when it matters. Even though everyone&#039 ; s gone doing their own thing, but when something happens and we need the family together, I think we still have that core. I think that&#039 ; s what I take away from it, whether it&#039 ; s being Vietnamese, or just my family itself. |01:05:41| BRODY: I didn&#039 ; t ask you about this earlier, but your grandparents were with you when you came over. What was their life like once they got here? SCHROEDER: I think my grandfather ended up getting a job at the bank. I&#039 ; m not sure what he did. Was he maintenance? I&#039 ; m not sure. My grandmother--oh my God. She was raising the kids, but I remember living--this is funny, because I think a lot of the older women did. So a lot of what they did was, they made--so when we came to America back in &#039 ; 75 and in those early--the late seventies, there weren&#039 ; t really Vietnamese restaurants--or Vietnamese grocery stores to have the Vietnamese food, and for them, they wanted their Vietnamese food. And so I remember Grandma would--on the weekends, my aunts--their--I&#039 ; m just a kid so I&#039 ; m playing, but the older folks--she&#039 ; s making rice paper. She is cooking on the little burner, whatever--the rice flour, whatever--and she&#039 ; s making rice paper. They would get the screens from the windows, so they&#039 ; d take off the windows of the apartment because that&#039 ; s--and so they would clean that, and they would get the rice paper and they would make it, and they would lay it out into the fields to dry--&quot ; fields&quot ; --we&#039 ; re talking about the green space in the apartments (laughs)--and they would lay--and that&#039 ; s, like, in the sun to dry, and then once it dries, everyone sit there and pick off--and she would sell the rice paper. I remember her making rice papers. I mean, that&#039 ; s--people like rice papers, and the rice paper they had was--you would then cook it on a burner, and it would pop kind of like popcorn, so it&#039 ; s a nice, crunchy rice paper. So that&#039 ; s--I remember her making that. I remember her--and then they would--once they had an apartment, they grew greens and vegetables. Oh, she would grow bean sprouts. Bean sprouts--I mean, I remember--I don&#039 ; t know if you need--but they would get clean, new rug--carpets, and they would grow the bean sprouts in, like, ten gallon tubs, and then, when it grows--so they would sell that to people. |01:07:41| BRODY: (both speaking at once) To other Vietnamese people. SCHROEDER: (both speaking at once) To other Vietnamese families. Yeah. So she did a lot of that, so it was kind of like her own in-house growing. That&#039 ; s what I remember about her trying to make a living, is that kind of stuff. BRODY: Right, because she didn&#039 ; t speak English. SCHROEDER: No. She didn&#039 ; t speak English at all. |01:07:59| BRODY: Did your grandmother play a large role in raising you? SCHROEDER: Not really. I think my mom did most of that, and my aunt who played with us. So my grandma--no. I think she was helping with her own kids that she had to do. But we were close. I mean, our schedules were routine. I just--there&#039 ; s some things that I miss that I--to me, I value now. Every Sunday morning when we got up, we went over to the grandparents&#039 ; house. All of us would hang out, whether we&#039 ; re just sitting in the little apartment doing whatever--they&#039 ; re doing their rice paper. Every Sunday, we would go see the grandparents. BRODY: That was a tradition. SCHROEDER: That was a tradition. It was a good one, though, I think about, that we kind of lose in today&#039 ; s world--that everyone&#039 ; s so busy, they don&#039 ; t have time or make the time. But back then, guess what? The stores weren&#039 ; t open. Nothing was open on Sundays, so Sunday, really, you couldn&#039 ; t go anywhere but to spend time with family, so maybe the American culture is doing the same thing. Who knows? Maybe they went to church to spend time with family, and we kind of did our thing too, because there was nothing-- you were kind of--which is kind of nice. I remember when that kind of went away, when that mall came in and you could--the malls could open on Sundays. BRODY: Right, that Blue Law. SCHROEDER: Yeah. |01:09:17| BRODY: Do you still speak Vietnamese? SCHROEDER: I speak broken Vietnamese. BRODY: Where do you most often have the opportunity to speak it? SCHROEDER: I&#039 ; ll speak it to my parents or just within the family, like if I&#039 ; m with--if my family from Vietnam came to visit--they don&#039 ; t come very often--or we&#039 ; re with family or the elders. Like, if we get together as a family and it&#039 ; s people that are my parents&#039 ; age, I would try to speak Vietnamese to them--or broken Vietnamese--because I feel weird speaking English to them. But of course, I throw in English words because I don&#039 ; t know too much of it. But yeah, I did grow up--I didn&#039 ; t even mention this. I grew up watching a Vietnamese Chinese soap opera on TV. (laughs) |01:09:54| BRODY: What was it called? SCHROEDER: I can&#039 ; t remember, but you know how they have--like, there&#039 ; s Bollywood and stuff like that? Well, Vietnamese had their own where they&#039 ; re Chinese actors dubbed in Vietnamese, but I kind of laugh because I think that&#039 ; s how I learned a lot of Vietnamese. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Right. Was it on TV here? SCHROEDER: No, no. They&#039 ; re on VHSes. Everyone had VHS and we&#039 ; ll watch it. It was kind of like one of those romance, drawn-out saga, but I remember--because surprisingly, my Vietnamese is better than my brother&#039 ; s, and a few others were like, How do you--? Like, &quot ; I think it&#039 ; s from watching those soap operas.&quot ; I mean, because I would sit there and rewind and go, &quot ; Mom, what does that word mean? Mom, what does that mean?&quot ; And so I watched a bunch of that too. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s so interesting. SCHROEDER: (laughs) So that&#039 ; s where I got my Vietnamese culture--from watching soap operas. No, but they were--yeah, but that&#039 ; s what they were all watching, and my brother did watch some, but he watched more of the fighting ones, and I watched more of the romantic ones, but the fighting ones didn&#039 ; t have as much speaking, so he didn&#039 ; t learn as much. But that&#039 ; s what they do. They watch--we grew up watching Chinese soap operas. When we go over on Sundays, we&#039 ; re watching Chinese soap operas in Vietnamese. And now, I think the older generation watches these Vietnamese musicians--their concerts and stuff on TV all the time now, which I never got into that-- the Asian concert scene. I think, in high school, some kids got into that, but I never did. BRODY: That wasn&#039 ; t you, right? SCHROEDER: No. That wasn&#039 ; t me. |01:11:22| BRODY: Thinking about your kids, they were born here, they&#039 ; ve grown up here, and it sounds like it&#039 ; s been not as easy to transmit some of the Vietnamese culture to them. What would you like them to know about your story and about your family&#039 ; s story? SCHROEDER: I think more of how we got here and how--where we are today. I think, for me, is for them to learn that it doesn&#039 ; t matter what happens to you and what circumstances. What you make of yourself is the big thing. At some point, I wouldn&#039 ; t mind taking them back to Vietnam to see the countryside and the beauty. I&#039 ; ve been back once, but we were there more to visit family, but just to see the country, which I haven&#039 ; t seen myself--but as far as that--I mean, part of it, it&#039 ; s sad to say, is kind of lost, but if we can keep whatever history we have--because I think when my parents came here, too, everything was kind of left back--like, no pictures, no this--there&#039 ; s part of it that kind of got severed and lost, which is life, and the rest of it is just kind of what you remember. So if we can just keep that history, which is what you&#039 ; re doing--I think it&#039 ; s valuable. Whether or not they care for it now, I think it&#039 ; s good to have. But yeah, just kind of where they came from--how we all ended up here. As far as the cultural, the--I think it&#039 ; s kind of lost. It&#039 ; s sad to say, but I think for us it&#039 ; s kind of lost, but I think that they&#039 ; re kind of in a whole different--this generation&#039 ; s totally different for us too, for them. Now, I kind of laugh because they&#039 ; re half Vietnamese and half white, but if they were to see themselves, I don&#039 ; t think they see themselves as white or Vietnamese, but I think they probably see themselves more of a Westerner, than as an Eastern. You know, like, the whole--I remind them, I go, &quot ; Hey guys, you&#039 ; re half Vietnamese in there,&quot ; you know, so I just think--but I think that doesn&#039 ; t have to do with anything else. It&#039 ; s just the fact that we live in America and in the Western world. I think, if we--if Jerry and I met and we lived in Vietnam, they&#039 ; d probably see themselves more as Vietnamese. So I just think because we happened to grow up here, they kind of see them as that. But as I look around, America now is all full of--it truly is a melting pot. |01:13:48| BRODY: What does it mean to you to be American? SCHROEDER: I think, to be American--I think it&#039 ; s the freedom ; the freedom to be able to make your choices. I feel like America allows us to--if you really want something bad and you work hard at it, you can achieve it, but you&#039 ; ve got to put in the work. You can&#039 ; t just assume that people are going to hand things to you, and I think that sometimes that gets lost. But for me, I feel like America is the land of opportunity if people choose to take advantage of what the government and what America provides you. I mean, America is a place where it says, Hey, we are going to educate your children. We&#039 ; ve got laws that your children can&#039 ; t work so that they can educate and better themselves. I think it saddens me to see that people here sometimes don&#039 ; t take advantage of that, whereas when you come from a place like Vietnam--like I said, I didn&#039 ; t grow up there, but seeing how-- listening to the stories--my dad, he grew up from a poor family. He wanted an education and had to work to get himself to where he can get an education. It wasn&#039 ; t given to you. It wasn&#039 ; t for--and you had to work at it, and just to see that other countries--like, if the kids were given the opportunity to get an education, how much better they could be, or food--and here in America, wow. We provide the education. We provide the free food service. We provide all this, and it saddens me that people don&#039 ; t look at that as an opportunity to be able to do something better with theirself, and America provides that. I think most immigrants coming over here seize that and can appreciate that and value that. I think sometimes, when you&#039 ; re here on this land for so long, you take it for granted, and it makes me worry about the future generation, not just of my generation--of kids growing--grandkids, and stuff like that. Are they going to become this that take that so much for granted, that we saw as an opportunity? As long as we can keep these from appreciating--knowing that this is an opportunity, and if you do what you need to do, you can be anything. I guess that&#039 ; s my biggest piece on that. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. Is there anything that we haven&#039 ; t talked about today or that I have forgotten to ask that you&#039 ; d like to add? SCHROEDER: No. (laughs) I think I&#039 ; m good with that. If I--no, I haven&#039 ; t--no. I don&#039 ; t think so. I think we&#039 ; ve covered it. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I&#039 ; m so honored to have been able to record it for this collection, so thank you so much. SCHROEDER: Well, thanks for documenting it for me. I think, when I&#039 ; m ninety, I&#039 ; ll listen to it again and remind my old, dementia self (laughs) what all this is all about. BRODY: Well, thank you so much. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh012_btba_012.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dai Pham Schroeder Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh012_btba_012 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Subject The topic of the resource Dai Pham arrived in the United States as a toddler, traveling with her family as refugees at the end of the Vietnam War. After spending time in various refugee camps including Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, her family was sponsored and resettled in Richardson, Texas. Pham recounts her childhood experiences in North Texas and her reflections on her family's experiences. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Betsy Brody https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/e394b8a29811c8b3f362c7974e23ab5f.jpg 08c76893d58e545d7dc1b0496b135813 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chad Nguyen OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Chad Nguyen, June 29, 2019 2019oh011_btba_011 1:19:50 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Chad Nguyen Betsy Brody mp3 1:|22(17)|33(2)|41(11)|62(2)|70(9)|80(7)|89(9)|102(4)|129(8)|150(3)|175(3)|199(1)|215(7)|224(12)|248(9)|261(12)|282(8)|305(3)|326(10)|340(8)|353(6)|370(11)|391(9)|409(6)|417(9)|453(3)|469(4)|491(14)|509(3)|521(14)|535(11)|552(11)|568(12)|583(5)|608(10)|632(5)|651(2)|673(1)|691(9)|703(8)|736(2)|759(12)|766(11)|775(6)|788(6)|805(9)|819(6)|835(1)|848(2)|862(1)|886(10)|895(1)|906(1)|923(4)|945(2)|954(1)|967(3)|986(2)|1007(6)|1021(4)|1038(3)|1052(15)|1065(4)|1077(12)|1099(5)|1118(5)|1126(5)|1140(3)|1152(10)|1169(7)|1178(1)|1201(6)|1219(2)|1227(11)|1241(9)|1249(9)|1260(14)|1268(11)|1281(13) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117364 Aviary audio 0 Interview Introduction 23 Memories of life and family in Vietnam/Father's decision to take the family out of Vietnam All right, thank you so much for having me here to your home and for agreeing to this interview. To start out, could you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam? |00:00:33| NGUYEN: Okay. Life in Vietnam. I pretty much left Vietnam when I was a child, roughly around nine years old. As I best remember is that I came from a family pretty well-off. My mom and dad started out with nothing, and they—my dad was a fisherman, and they, over the year, very successful. During ’75, he’s considered one of the well-off people around the town in Danang. BRODY: In Danang. NGUYEN: Danang, Vietnam, which is middle part of the country. So my childhood— nothing really struggle or anything like that, but when the communists came in and conquer—I guess, took the whole country, and my dad started to kind of have a—if he said whether we leave or not—leave Vietnam or not. So during that ’75 time period, I was roughly, what, around five, six years old. He contemplated he’s not going, and as the communist progressed, when they took over the country, they took everything from him—his life, all wealth. So during that four-, five-year period, he changed his mind and he started to try to escape from Vietnam. And as I remember, I was just so little—we wouldn’t struggle or anything like that—like, food on the table or anything like that because he’s well off, so when he senses that all his wealth and all that stuff taken away from him, he’s starting to have a plan to escape from Vietnam during the ’80. During that five period, it make him realize that we got to go because this is no future. You lose your freedom or whatnot, and so that’s what he went through. BRODY: Did you have any siblings? NGUYEN: We have ten total. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: Ten total sibling. I am the eighth kid, and I have two little sister at the time. Life, during that time before we left from Vietnam, it wasn’t bad for us. Some families were worse just because they’re struggling because they’re not well-off, but we came from family wealth. communism ; Danang ; escape ; family ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War 208 Leaving Vietnam on fishing boats BRODY: After your dad made the decision, what happened then? NGUYEN: He make the decision to leave, and so he’s a fisherman, so he had boats. He have ship that go out and do the fishing business, so he start with that. He organize dates and time. He paid the police to kind of look away so that he can go. So the original plan was that—during the ’80, that after the new year—it was a new year, 1980, exactly—that after the new year, he’s going to start leave. So his plan was, after the new year, he pretend like he’s going to go out and fish. During that time, what’s important for him was that—because during the eighties, the Vietnamese head-butts with the Chinese during that time, and he didn’t want us, especially the boys, to be back in the country and fight for the communist Vietnam. So his plan was, when we leave, the boys have to be on the boat right away, so he snuck us out there first. We were pretending that we’re fishing and all that, and coming back a day or two—where he paid the police at the beach to look away sort of deal—and pick up the whole family ; my grandfather, grandparents, my mom, and six of the sister. So the original plan was to snuck the four boy first on the boat, go out, and pretend like we’re fishing, and then come back a day or two to the beach and pick everybody up. Anyway, there’s two boat. When they come in, the other boat owner said, “Look. Your kids on this boat, then your side have to come in and pick up, because something goes wrong, then, you know. That’s the deal.” So my father said, “Okay. I don’t care. All I’m worried about is my kid. He stay on this boat. I’m on the other boat. We’re going to go in the beach and pick up all the people—my parents and whoever.” Well, when we took off and he went into the beach, they already signal a smaller boat coming this way to tell them that, “Don’t come in. They’re going to capture you,” even though they paid money to let him go. He didn’t see the signal and he took off, and the small boat came to our boat and said, “You better go because they’re going to catch you,” so we abandoned my dad and we went to Hong Kong, because we went from the middle of the country and that’s the best route to go. During that time, we already know—with the news, we already know my dad going to be captured, and that’s how we started out. On the boat that we’re on with the four brothers, we left for Hong Kong. And I think we are very fortunate, because if you’re interview a lot of boat people—the story is not a very good outcome, and some of them very lucky to be alive and very lucky to come—the outcome, because people that go south instead of going north to Hong Kong, they encounter all sorts of thing. And there’s a good amount of boat people that lost their life at sea that lost their life to a pirate, because I think, mainly, the pirates mainly from Thailand. |00:07:37| BRODY: So you didn’t encounter anything like that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. That route, we already know. My dad know, during that period, that the Chinese won’t do anything to you. They just left you alone. But, there’s no—nothing. We just have enough food, water, and go to Hong Kong. boat ; bribery ; China ; communism ; escape ; family ; fishing ; fishing boats ; Hong Kong ; leaving Vietnam ; pirates ; Vietnam War 480 Nguyen's father is captured/Nguyen and his brothers arrive in Hong Kong BRODY: Right. So your dad— NGUYEN: My dad stuck with the other boat. BRODY: Yeah, but was he okay, or no—? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. He got captured. BRODY: Okay. NGUYEN: Um-hm. So, that’s how the story started when we left, just as(??) boat people. But like I said, we were just fortunate enough that where we at, our location, which is a mid-part of the country, and that’s the route we go, and it’s— |00:08:23| BRODY: (both speaking at once) Just go straight there. So there was no incident. NGUYEN: No incident at all. We almost—I think—because back at the time, technology’s not good, and these people—they rely on just a compass, and you heard the story—I’m not sure—but some of them don’t know how to use—and then they lost lives at sea too. But they use a compass and they just head in that direction on the compass and go, but we were okay because we’re—our boat was big. We had plenty of water and supply, and I believe one night before we got there, there’s another Chinese boat that we encounter that point us to the right direction. Then we arrived in Hong Kong port, like, in ’80. But yeah, we were fortunate enough that nothing happened to our boat. BRODY: (both speaking at once) So you said that the boat was big and you had enough supplies. Was that—who had organized— NGUYEN: My dad. BRODY: Your dad did. NGUYEN: Yeah. My dad did. I mean, the boat that he have considered to be the biggest fishing boat in the business back then. You hear the story about small boat, and there’s tons of people in the water up to here where you sit, and those are perilous people that die at sea. Our boat was huge. No problem. BRODY: No problem. NGUYEN: But that’s because he had the plan. |00:09:52| BRODY: Right. So you were with your brothers—three brothers? NGUYEN: Three, so four of us. boat ; food ; Hong Kong ; refugee camp ; refugees ; supplies ; Wonder Bread 666 Refugee camp in Hong Kong BRODY: So you were in that floating boat in the harbor for just two—and then, they moved you to a camp in Hong Kong. NGUYEN: In Hong Kong. Um-hm. BRODY: How long were you there? NGUYEN: Total, like, nine months—eight and a half months. We left new year, so somewhere around January, February—new year for Chinese New Year—and we got there, and then we left Hong Kong in October. Roughly about nine months in. And— BRODY: Nineteen eighty, still. NGUYEN: Right. When we got there, it’s 1980, October, in that exact month. BRODY: Was that camp run by the United Nations? NGUYEN: No. That camp—actually, I believe, maybe it was a—I’m not sure, but you know Hong Kong is governed by the UK, right? So to be honest, I’m not sure about that, but we interviewed with the people, and they spoke with the British accent— BRODY: (both speaking at once) Yes, the British accent. NGUYEN: —but I’m not sure where they—it’s probably, maybe, some sort of—I don’t know, but some organization that—for refugees. I remember that. It was a British accent. Hong Kong ; refugee camp ; refugees ; United Kingdom ; United Nations 751 Memories of family attitudes about Communism/Relatives' earlier immigration to the U.S. BRODY: Yeah. (laughs) So the—while you were in the camp, did you need to locate a sponsor? How did you end up in Texas? NGUYEN: Okay. So to kind of backtrack, during ’75, when the communist took the country, my uncle, during that time—’75—and he told my brother—my father, which is his brother—he said, “Look. This is not going to be good,”—because he’s the one in the army for the South Vietnamese, the democratic part. And he said, “Look. They taking the country. You got to go now, and you have a boat.” And during ’75, it’s easy. Your family snuck out, and you’re gone. You’d be free. But my dad just lingering, and he said, “No. I don’t want to do that. So what if the communist come? There a bunch of Vietnamese people here. If they can survive, I can survive too, you know? And this is my home land.” So he said, “No. I don’t want to go.” So my uncle and his family just took off in ’75 and made it here during, like, seventy-something, and so they’re here. communism ; Florida ; immigration ; sponors ; sponsor ; Texas ; United States ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War 833 Four brothers sponsored by uncle in Texas BRODY: In Texas? NGUYEN: In—it was Florida, but he moved to Texas, and that’s the uncle and aunt that sponsor us from Hong Kong. So we didn’t have to go through any kind of church organization. Some—a lot of people do, but we don’t. We have our own relative, so that’s good. BRODY: So did you first go to Florida then? NGUYEN: No. He actually moved from Florida to Texas during the ’80, and he’s a well- off man too. He got his own restaurant, so he sponsored us. It’s pretty—I mean, it’s easier if you have some sort of foot in, good establishment, so we didn’t have any problem getting a sponsor, whereas some people do if they don’t have any support. So that’s— BRODY: So all four of you were sponsored by your aunt and uncle. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. All four. We came—four of us. Just wait for the paperwork, and we on the plane a few months—nine months later to arrive in Houston, Texas. family ; Florida ; Hong Kong ; restaurant ; sponsor ; sponsors ; Texas 893 Initial impressions of Houston BRODY: In Houston. So tell me about your first days in Houston. NGUYEN: First day in Houston? It’s kind of a shock because during that period of time, we never—we were kids. We’re not exposed to anything, especially cars. When we first arrived—well, the first thing is the plane for us as a kid. It was like, Wow, I’m on a plane! But when we land in—on the way from the airport home, we’re like, Amazing. This is—cars everywhere, because we’d never seen so many cars, (laughs) and we’re all like, Where’s all the people? No people walking. No bike. It just a total wow experience. Everybody talked about, Oh, man, everybody in the US own a car. We were like, Oh, you got to be six—really rich to own a car! And we just witnessed that, so it was, like, Wow—jaw-dropping. BRODY: You were blown away. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I was a ten-years-old kid, and that’s how we started our life in Houston. airplane ; cars ; Houston ; Texas 961 Housing arrangement in Houston BRODY: What was your housing situation like? NGUYEN: My uncle arrange it. He has a—we live in apartment for a few months, but he had a house and then he brought us in, also, with my other—with the other side. He had two family, the husband side and the wife side, that he sponsor. BRODY: Wow. So he sponsored the whole family. NGUYEN: Um-hm. We would thank him for that, but yeah. He sponsored us. We really don’t—I think back, we fortunate enough that, because my uncle, we don’t have any struggle that a lot of people have, like, as far as job and housing, and they pretty much took care of us, like find us jobs and things like that. apartment ; family ; housing ; sponsors 1021 Strategy of lowering or raising age on paperwork/Experiences in elementary school in Houston Tell me about your jobs. Well, you were very young, so you were in school. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. I already—I was in school. Right. The funny thing about school with me is that at the time, my brother lower my age. BRODY: Why did he do that? NGUYEN: Because the mentality is that if you’re young, you want to go to school to learn English. You don’t want to be old and stuff, so he lower two and a half years old, and then (laughs) the older kids and the older middle-age, they would bump up the age so they would retire early! (Brody laughs) That’s how they know how the system works here, is that you can retire early if you—whatever. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Reach the age. NGUYEN: Right. So that’s how most of the—some of them were—they tell the real age, but most of us, we either lowered the age or add a few more years older. Like, my wife did the same thing. She’s younger—two years younger than she’s supposed to. BRODY: (both speaking at once) That’s really funny. It’s flexible. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yeah. And now, I have the certificate that I can’t change it back! (Brody laughs) What they heard is that you can change them. (laughs) BRODY: You can’t change, so it’s going to affect your retirement. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yes. Yes. |00:18:28| BRODY: So in school, what grade—they bumped you down, so what grade did you start in? NGUYEN: So, I started sixth grade—well, yeah, sixth grade. I was kind of like—jump a few grades when I was in Vietnam, so I was sixth grade and I was ten years old—ten and a half years old. So, when they—when my brother lowered my age, he put me in fourth grade to start, so I’m two grade down to start with! So I started fourth grade in the elementary school in Alief, Texas, down in Houston. School was fun, and got its up and down during that period. Kids would make fun of me. age ; bullying ; education ; elementary school ; retirement ; school 1169 Experiences of racism, bullying, and discrimination in school BRODY: Did people make fun of you? NGUYEN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, racist, prejudice—it’s worse back then. BRODY: Yeah. Tell me more about that, about your experiences with that. NGUYEN: In school, a lot of kids—especially white kids—they mock your language and they do eye thing, and it’s just— BRODY: How did you handle that? NGUYEN: (laughs) Okay, I’m going to tell the truth. Okay, so I was in school, and I think it’s my second year, fifth grade, and this kid always making fun. A lot of kid making fun of me, but this kid named Todd, I remember him until today ; tall—taller than I am—freckle-faced kid, white kid, and he keep bothering me. One day at the library, he keep—somehow, he keep bothering—I couldn’t handle it. I couldn’t—you know. I kick him in the crotch real hard! (both laugh) And at that point, the ESL teacher—I didn’t know much of the language—didn’t know much English yet, and the teacher—ESL teacher—call me and they said, “Oh, no! Don’t do this!” And then at that point on forward, all the kid heard and they didn’t bother me anymore! (laughs) But yeah. You know kids ; they make fun of you because you’re different. I mean, worse then than now. bullying ; discrimination ; education ; English ; racial slurs ; racism ; school 1272 Presence of other Vietnamese students at school BRODY: So I know a lot of people from Vietnam ended up in Houston, but in your particular school, were there other Vietnamese children? NGUYEN: Yes. There’s another kid that been there, Wan, and he’s the one who translate stuff to English. BRODY: For you. NGUYEN: Yeah. Met one of those kid from Houston from the school. There’s few kids Vietnamese. I think that Alief was mainly—not a whole lot back then of Vietnamese community, but now it’s huge. (??), but there’s few Vietnamese kid. BRODY: At that time. NGUYEN: At that time. Alief ; education ; English language ; Houston ; schools ; Vietnmese students 1314 Nguyen's brothers' employment experiences BRODY: So were your brothers in the same school as you? NGUYEN: My brother—about my brother, I’m the youngest, so I was ten. The one next to me, he was, I think, fifteen or fourteen—fifteen, something like that, and the one before him is two years older. And then my oldest brother, he’s, like, twenty- something—twenty-one. BRODY: Did he go to work? NGUYEN: Yes. So for him, he went to work. I was in elementary, and my other two brothers in high school. My oldest brother was—he was college educated in Vietnam, and so he started to doing drafting. His language wasn’t good, so he didn’t wanted to go back to college because he’s a little bit older—twenty-something, twenty-four, something like that—and so he went for drafting school, and it turns out he liked it. Then he becomes a builder, like a carpenter fixing houses and drawing the place, and that’s what he’s doing now. BRODY: He still does that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) He’s build house. Uh-huh. And my other two brother—they went to school, finish high school, but didn’t go to college. We just had to work and support ourself, because you can’t depending on your relative for—they just get you on your toes to get going. They have to work and support. |00:23:42| BRODY: What kind of work did they do? NGUYEN: My other brothers—well, before they went to work, we moved to Dallas first. So when my brother didn’t have a job—the oldest one didn’t have a job—he followed this other guy, kind of like his apprentice—building houses, fixing house, remodeling home, thing like that—and he followed him up here from Houston, and I think we stayed in Houston about four, five—three years. And then we started moving up here with him because he got a job up here. And so all four brother move to Richardson, Texas, and my brother go to Richardson High School. And so the oldest one only worked, and then my other one just working part-time, like at 7-Eleven convenience store, and make some money for sure(??). building ; carpenter ; Dallas ; drafting ; education ; employment ; English language ; high school ; Houston ; jobs ; Richardson ; social class 1492 Participation in Junior High and High School Sports/Football, Track, Wrestling BRODY: Right. So all of you four brothers living together in Dallas. What part of Dallas—were you in Richardson? NGUYEN: Richardson. BRODY: And then you went to the high school, so you were in middle school at that point? NGUYEN: Yep. BRODY: Where did you go to middle school? NGUYEN: I went to West—did they call it middle school? BRODY: Junior high. NGUYEN: Junior high. Yes. West Junior High. |00:25:07| BRODY: (both speaking at once) West Junior High, and then Richardson High School. So what was it like for you? It sounds like you were the brother who had the most time in American schools. By the time you got to high school, how did you feel about being in an American school? NGUYEN: I think after we left Dallas—I mean, Houston—I don’t have any culture thing that making fun of you anymore, so when I came here in Richardson, I joined sport and I loved sport. BRODY: What sports? NGUYEN: Football. And when you’re in sport, I think it helped for me, at least, that you don’t get kids to make fun of you. You fit into some—a group, right? And so I was in sport for—really, for small kid. Really, I’m bigger than they are because I’m two years older. So I joined the football team, but I’m small kid anyway, size-wise—just more mature—but I joined football and I enjoyed it and we had a blast. All the kid look up to me because I was pretty good. I was—at West, I was, like, three years—seven, eight, nine—yeah, three years most valuable player. We go to the banquet. It’s pretty cool. BRODY: That’s very cool. NGUYEN: And then I also do track and field. BRODY: What position did you play in football? NGUYEN: I play running back, and then linebacker. BRODY: Really? And then in track and field, what were your events? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Track and field, I’d sprint the hundred meter, the two- hundred [meter], and the quarter mile, and then both of the relays—the four-hundred meter and the mile relay. |00:27:11| BRODY: And did you do football in high school, at Richardson High School? NGUYEN: Yes. And then—I’m getting to that. So all those three years is fine. So the year when I came back, sophomore, everybody was just poofed up back then, like, in the groups. BRODY: Everybody grew. NGUYEN: Yeah. And it’s—I was at JV football in Richardson High School, and my size just hundred and thirty pound. All the kids—(laughs) so I decided, “Man, this not going to work. I’m just a shrimp.” (both laugh) So I quit. I was just going to do track and field, and then one of the football coach—he also coach wrestling, and so he recruited me. “Hey, Chad,”—well, my name wasn’t Chad back then. That wasn’t a person—citizen yet, but—“You want to try out wrestling?” And I looked at him. I said, “Oh, man. This is sissy sport.” He said, “No. This is good for you. Go come and try out,” so I went and try out, and I liked it. Give me something to do. I always want to be a part of something, a team. I liked the structure, basically. That’s why—I think part of it is why I play sport, is the structure. So I joined wrestling and wrestled the rest three year from high school until graduated. BRODY: You enjoyed it? NGUYEN: Yeah. I enjoyed it. |00:28:46| BRODY: Did you still do track and field? NGUYEN: No, because at that point, like I said, I’m not growing. (laughs) It’s just that I think my advantage in junior high is that maybe I’m older, maybe, and I’m doing really better, but once I don’t have the size, and the older kid—when they catch up, it’s just hard for me. assimilation ; education ; fitting in ; football ; friendship ; High School ; junior high ; Richardson ; Richardson High School ; Richardson West Junior High ; schools ; track and field ; wrestling 1756 Meeting his future wife in high school BRODY: What about the academic side and the social side of going to school? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. The academic side—when I was in school, I didn’t try real hard. I’m doing okay. I got an A average to graduate, but—because I think, for me, is that I don’t have parents to push me too. And look back, I think that I’m lucky the way I turned out because some other kid like me without parent turn bad. There’s no guiding and no directions too. BRODY: What do you think made a difference for you? Why were you able to avoid that? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Because in my mind, when we first arrived, I said I wanted to do something. I’m not going to be a bum. I’m going to be successful, and I think that’s the mindset. Although I’m not trying too hard for my—during my high school year, but I’m okay. And things not too hard for me to get school, in honored course and all that, and AP, and stuff like that. I’m in the courses, but I’m not trying to my full potential. That’s what I felt. Also, because I’m in sport, we stayed in. We practiced until six, seven sometime—five, six, seven—four hours after school, but the way it turned out, I’m glad. I met her through high school. |00:31:00| BRODY: Oh. You met your wife in high school, yes. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Um-hm. BRODY: So tell me about how you met. NGUYEN: Okay. So I was end of my junior year. (laughs) End of my junior year, and I bump into her—not “bump” literally, but in contact with her. Then so we make arrangement and we dated that summer. And then the next year, I went into senior year. We see each other, and then we make plans. Okay, we’re going to go to college, and Which college, and all that. So I think, for us—my wife and I—we’re more mature than any other kid like I see now, because we set goals and things like that. When I met her, I said, “Okay, that’s it. She’s my wife. She’s my love.” To be honest, I didn’t propose to her, right, but we already know—she kind of know that we’re going to get married, but not until we get out of college, and that’s what we did. So we—I graduate one year before her and I didn’t go anywhere. I attended UNT [University of North Texas], driving back and forth, and then when she graduated, we all both went to [Texas] A&amp ; M together. BRODY: That must’ve been a lot of coordination for you to pull that off. NGUYEN: Yeah. Lot of driving, I guess. I guess it’s, like, pretty good drive—forty- something mile each way, right? BRODY: Yeah. NGUYEN: Every day for a year. I didn’t want to stay up there. Plus, (laughs) didn’t want spend the money. I don’t have the money too! Yeah. academics ; college ; dating ; education ; marriage ; school ; Texas A &amp ; M ; University of North Texas 1973 Memories of the Vietnamese community in Garland BRODY: That makes sense. That’s a really nice story though, that you met each other in high school. In high school and during the time once you got to Dallas, what are your memories of the larger Vietnamese community at that time? NGUYEN: At that time, it’s not so much like right now. We remember the biggest Vietnamese community probably in Garland, because everything we do, we go to Garland for— BRODY: You were very active there. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Not—we’re from Richardson, but I’m talking about as far as shops, restaurant, and grocery, it’s all there. We go, and that’s how our contact with our Vietnamese community would be—like, go to the grocery and we run into them and things like that, but that’s— BRODY: All local. NGUYEN: In Garland is the biggest Vietnamese community back then, because when I’m in Richardson, Richardson wasn’t that many, you know, like Plano back then— there’s nothing in Richardson back then anyway—only the central line—but it wasn’t that big of a community thing, even in Garland. Just smaller. |00:34:10| BRODY: Did you socialize or attend religious functions or cultural functions at that time? NGUYEN: We didn’t go to—I mean, to be honest, during that time people worry—we worry about making money, get your life, go work, so we weren’t really concentrating on, Oh, okay. We’re going to be attending this community. So everybody had their own thing. BRODY: Right. Surviving. NGUYEN: Right. Surviving. So time to time, we were—especially during certain holiday—Buddhist holiday—then we go to temple, and then we see a lot of people in there. Those are the function we would go. But in general, there’s not really a community that you connect with and you go to back then. BRODY: Day-to-day. NGUYEN: Right. Day-to-day. BRODY: Just more— NGUYEN: No. I mean, of course you have some kid or people my brother worked with that are Vietnamese, but the work place is same thing with the school. You just see them here. |00:35:20| BRODY: You see people there, but not necessarily as part of your daily social life, right? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Correct. Because like you said, that we’re there to survive more first, that first few years. Right now, it’s just better. I think it’s better. They have community that you can go to, get together, things like that. But I think during that time, it’s all about surviving—make a living, support yourself. Buddhism ; Dallas ; Garland ; groceries ; holidays ; restaurants ; Richardon ; traditions ; Vietnamese community 2153 Learning English BRODY: Right. So again, back to learning English. We haven’t really talked about that very much. Starting in Houston, and then on here in Richardson—how did that go? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Well, I did learn a little bit because my father—he hired tutor and would teach us that broken English or whatever they can teach. I picked up few things and hear things, but still, fluently, you can’t. So that started, and I think I picked that after two years—one, two years—because you’re a kid. You pick up really fast. BRODY: So you did ESL in Houston. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) ESL in Houston. And then, I think I didn’t do any more ESL after two years—fourth, fifth, and then, sixth, then I’m gone. I’m out of there. It was just two years of ESL. BRODY: What were some of the hardest things about learning a new language? NGUYEN: You know, I didn’t think it’s hard for me. I think part of it because I’m ten, eleven years old. I mean, if you come at a time where you’re in the teenage year, you’re a little bit older, and then your tongue is stuck with the mother language and it’s hard to pronounce everything right. |00:37:11| BRODY: Was it harder for your brothers? NGUYEN: My brother—my older brother in Dallas struggle a little bit, and I think part of that—the second to the oldest—part of that, he didn’t do too well because of the language. BRODY: Right. The timing. NGUYEN: Yeah—the language that he struggle, because I think he start out in eleventh—tenth or eleventh grade, and that just too much for him, for the language barrier. Now, my other—the brother that next to me, he’s very good. He’s—math, everything. He’s very smart guy, but he didn’t like to go to school. (laughs) He didn’t want to go to school! He would fail in PE [physical education] and ace on his, like, algebra test, but he didn’t want to go to school. I guess, back to the surviving, you’ve got to make money to support, because nobody going to pay for college, so that’s why— that’s part of the reason that he didn’t go to. English ; English as a Second Language ; Vietnamese language 2302 Experiences in college in Texas/Impact of the A&amp ; M Vietnamese American Student Association BRODY: Right. So for you, you went to UNT for a year, and then the two of you went to—you and your wife—or, not-yet-wife at that point— NGUYEN: Girlfriend. (laughs) BRODY: —girlfriend, at that point—went to Texas A&amp ; M. How did you choose Texas A&amp ; M and—tell me about that time period of your life. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Okay. So the story is that we know where we want to go, and there’s two school here, and we can’t afford private school, obviously, so the two school there is UT and then A&amp ; M. I think we chose A&amp ; M because we thought that maybe the UT–Austin is a party school. (both laugh) That’s what the logic is. So I think we choose A&amp ; M because of that, and we visit the campus. My wife and I went there and we liked it. It’s open. It’s not very congested or crowded, and so that’s why we choose A&amp ; M. |00:39:30| BRODY: And did it prove to be a good choice? (laughs) NGUYEN: Yeah. It’s very good choice. Yeah. We liked it. We liked it a lot. I think during that time of our college year, we had a huge—compare now—Vietnamese American Student Association. BRODY: Really? NGUYEN: And we had fun. I look back. We had a whole lot of fun because they always had some function just for Vietnamese American student, and talk—looking back now, they have hardly, because all the kids are now—they’re more Americanized than us. We think we’re Americanized already, but now is the third—what, third generation? BRODY: Right. NGUYEN: It’s not the same. They’re not doing the same thing that we do. BRODY: Right. I want to come back to that in a minute, but first, I’m so interested to hear more about the A&amp ; M Vietnamese American Student Association. It was big. How many students do you think were—? NGUYEN: Were big then, but few hundred—three, four hundred kids. BRODY: (both speaking at once) That is big. That is big. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Three, four hundred kids. |00:40:42| BRODY: And what kind of functions and activities did they have? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) They had musical function, food—things like that. BRODY: (both speaking at once) What kind of food? NGUYEN: Vietnamese food that we tried to learn to make sometime. BRODY: Oh, so would you cook it. NGUYEN: Somebody did. Some ladies, right, honey? (calling out to his wife in the next room ; Brody and Nguyen laugh) And then, time to time, they had host certain event, and then we have Vietnamese singer concert. |00:41:11| BRODY: Yeah. So that’s interesting because up until the time that you went to college, you were all just trying to survive and not really—didn’t have a lot of time, it sounds like, to focus on the culture and the food and things like that. So tell me how—describe your feelings when you realized that there was this Vietnamese American student organization and there were other students that shared your experience. NGUYEN: I feel like I fit in also, because we’re here in the country, during that time, and we don’t have anybody, and now, this experience in college—we have older kids— compare, right?(??)—and we have our age, and all this character of this old memory— old people. Like, not really old but—for instance, there’s this guy that much older than us, probably ten, maybe a little bit more—that he went there, and his characteristic is hard to describe. Like, he would drink tea and he would make fun of us in a nicer way. He would make fun of my wife’s bike and things like that in the Vietnamese language, and I felt like, Oh, okay. And I think that because of that also, I think that we maintain our language, and—I’m speaking for me, but my wife also—but we are able to maintain the language in writing, whereas some don’t, because like, my cousin, they came same age as I am. A lot of them don’t speak as good as a Vietnamese, or read and write Vietnamese. So I think that that’s the reason why that I liked a whole lot, the experience from college—the Vietnamese Association. Now, I ask my son now—he’s in college—and they don’t have as big because I think they are more Americanized now. Even if they have some sort of function like that, they probably won’t speak any Vietnamese, but in English. But it’s a different generation. It’s going to change. |00:43:51| American identity ; assimilation ; college ; cooking ; culture ; dating ; English language ; food ; identity ; music ; social events ; Texas A &amp ; M University ; University of North Texas ; Vietnamese American Student Association ; Vietnamese identity ; Vietnamese language ; Vietnamese students 2820 Graduation from college and careers BRODY: As you got older and got into college and doing that, what was the next chapter of your life? NGUYEN: Retirement. (both laugh) BRODY: So you’re working now, though. Before you retire, what line of work are you in? NGUYEN: I was—okay. So I graduated A&amp ; M with a electrical engineering degree, and my wife was accounting, so when we graduated in ’94, jobs lined up everywhere. You graduate that time, you had four or five jobs to choose from, and so we went back. So we got—I got a job offer here at TI, and got a job offer in Houston—Compaq—and so we choose to go to Houston and go back to where I came from. So when we graduate, I choose to work for Compaq and she work for Enron, and we started our lives there after we got married. Back to that, we graduated in end of—beginning of ’95. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. She graduated ’95. We got our degree. Two weeks, we got married. It was after college. And then we took off for our honeymoon, and then we went to Vietnam for a whole month before we start our job. We already accepted our job, but that’s—it was—(laughs) BRODY: So you went back to Vietnam for your honeymoon. NGUYEN: Yes, for a month, and I think we hadn’t been back there for, like, twenty years—fifteen, twenty years—something like that. And then we came back and start our job in Houston. She was accountant for Enron. I was doing electrical engineering design—chip design for Compaq. |00:49:03| BRODY: So you stayed in Houston, and then— NGUYEN: Stayed in Houston—oh, what year, honey? (talking to his wife in the next room) Four, five year? Five years. Five years. So we got married and stayed there, and three years later we had our first kid, and that’s the reason why we came back here, because her family’s here and mine’s also here. So working for three, four years there. We had our first child, and then six months, we moved back to Dallas, and she didn’t even have a job. We just dropped it off and dropped down everything in Houston and we moved, sold everything, and bought a house. BRODY: Brought the baby. NGUYEN: Right. Brought the baby. accounting ; baby ; Compaq ; electrical engineering ; employment ; Enron ; family ; honeymoon ; Houston ; identity ; jobs ; parenting ; retirement ; Texas Instruments ; Vietnam 3031 Jobs, job loss, and the impact of 9/11 BRODY: That’s twenty years, yes. And then you found jobs and everything, and so— NGUYEN: Well, (laughs) I lost my job a year and half later, when I came here to Dallas. BRODY: The economy. NGUYEN: Yes. The 9/11 whole deal was pretty bad, and I was pretty depressed for months because going to school, and now I don’t have a job. Then I start looking for something to do. My wife and I went and got into real estate for a while, and then I found a job doing IT work, which is what I do now ; IT support easier. I went back to engineering for a few months and I didn’t like it anymore. It’s just like, you’re in the enclosed office and coding and things like that, and I got away from it, and then I didn’t like it anymore. I think part of—I think I’m so lucky to—it’s part of my career choice, is because I have option, thanks to my wife. She also work. Otherwise, I would have probably pursued engineer and stressful. 9/11 ; depression ; employment ; engineering ; IT ; jobs ; real estate 3113 Heart attack But she’s work, and the story with me is that— what year was it, honey? In—yeah, in 2000—yeah, 2000—I had a heart attack. |00:52:17| BRODY: Oh, no! NGUYEN: Right? In the middle of a Friday morning, I had a heart attack. I didn’t know what it was. I just know how I felt, and I had a heart attack, and I told my wife, “Call 911,” and she thought I’m kidding, or—because she was little, and we always played the 911—and I come out this room. I lay down, say, “Honey, call 911! I don’t know what happened to me, but call 911!” So the guy wheeled me out the ambulance and hooked me up EKG, said, “You have a heart attack,” (laughs) so I went to the hospital and they put a stent in my— BRODY: How old were you? NGUYEN: Forty-two. BRODY: Wow. I’m really sorry to hear that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. And I wasn’t overweight or anything like that, or smoking, or—it just happened, and the doctor says, “You don’t look very good sometime.” And then at that point on, I think I went easy on the stress, and that’s why I was doing IT. Plus, at the time, we have three kids. I think, like I said, I’m lucky because both of us are working, so some had to make sacrifice. So I took the easier job. |00:53:43| BRODY: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it made you think about— NGUYEN: And then, come home and take care of everything about the kids. So—but, yeah. I’m fortunate, and I’m really lucky that I’m alive. BRODY: That’s nice. I’m glad that you’re well now. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) But, yeah. It was a shock. But now—after that, now I’m just, like, two things in my life now that I work on hardly—I mean, work at it—is my health and my kids. So my ritual thing is I walk three, four miles a day, and I work, and then I run. I go out and run marathon, and things like that, to get the heart. BRODY: Right. Take care of your heart. NGUYEN: Yeah. Um-hm. But— 911 ; ambulance ; children ; EKG ; health ; health care ; health problems ; heart attack ; parenting ; stress 3274 Parenting BRODY: You mentioned your kids. So you’ve got three children. What has it been like for you, being a parent of children who were born here and are Americans? (laughs) NGUYEN: I think the environment we in when we were raised—I think we’re more protective of them and want to provide for them the best that we can, because we feel like we struggling when we were little. We had to work harder and things like that. So for us, we were protective. We want to, at the same time, provide the best that we can for them, give them education, things like that. But I mean, that’s the whole thing about us, is that, Okay, after she’s gone to college, our job is done as a parent and we can go to retire. So again, that’s the two thing. The most important thing for me right now is my kids—make sure they’re okay—and then my health—make sure I’m okay—and everything’s going to be okay! children ; education ; kids ; parenting 3352 Balancing Vietnamese identity and American identity BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. Those are good priorities to have. You and your wife both kind of had a foot in both worlds. It sounds like you were very comfortable in Vietnam and at home with Vietnamese culture and food and all of that, but yet, you also are Aggies, you know? You’re Texans and you are here. So how do you balance those two sides of your experience? NGUYEN: Well, you know, I think we adapt to change better, as far as for me and my wife. Like, I’ll give you an example for this. If we go back to Vietnam, the weather’s hot, we wouldn’t complain. We can ride it out. We’re okay with that. Whereas, the second generation and born here, they go to Vietnam, “Ah, that’s too hot!” That’s because we had the luxury of living both Vietnamese culture when we were growing up, even though we came at a little age, but we still have that experience and we’re okay with that, so I think that’s an advantage for us. Another thing is that food—we eat a lot of fermented fish stuff, which stinks. (both laugh) I admit it, but it taste so darn good for us! Now, all the second generation or the third that won’t touches that, and I think you can’t force them, right? But I think they lose out on that, to me, because they don’t have the experience. BRODY: Right. The taste, maybe, of your childhood. NGUYEN: So, again, we’re fortunate that we share those two different culture— American culture and the Vietnamese culture. adaptation ; American identity ; cooking ; culture ; food ; generational differences ; identity ; Vietnamese culture ; Vietnamese food ; Vietnamese identity 3465 Impact of American culture on family life BRODY: What is the part of American culture that you enjoy the most? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I like structure, whereas in Vietnamese family, we don’t have structure. Most of them don’t have structure. BRODY: What do you mean? NGUYEN: Like sleep time, everything, do this and that, chore—like, in Vietnamese culture, the boy never do anything. They don’t cook, clean. They just eat and go, right? And the girl have to do everything. The girl have to cook, right? So here, we do everything. My family—my daughter and my son—will do everything. They do chore. The boys cook the rice. He cook. He wash the dishes. So we’re trying to— BRODY: Share all the— NGUYEN: —share everything. Okay. That is a good thing. So we kind of— BRODY: (both speaking at once) That’s the piece of American culture that you kind of melded into your family. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Exactly. Melded into—I mean, most of American here—the kid don’t want to do anything too, just like—right? (both laugh) BRODY: Right. So— NGUYEN: But we trained them, sort of, to do that, and I keep telling them, “Seeing you do things for thirty minute—washing dishes—I can do it in ten, (Brody laughs) but I want you to do it because when you’re out there on your own, you’re able to wash the dishes, or know how to.” I’ll give you example, and it make me feel so good, is that my son went to [Texas] Tech and he share apartment with these kids—these white kids—and they don’t do anything. The dishes high, and that would bother my son, and he complained to me, “Dad, they don’t know how to do anything! They don’t know how to do dishes!” And now I realized that he learned. We preach, but he won’t—we feel like he won’t listen, but they do listen. Things like that make me feel good to know, okay, at least—I thought they didn’t listen to me, but little things like that, like cleaning. He cook. He able to do laundry whenever they would come home with stinky basket. (laughs) They do all that, so that’s good. Little things that know more every day that you can take care of yourself—laundry, the cooking. You don’t have to be extravagant, but know how at least, cook rice and feed yourself, instead of—yeah. But, that’s what we aiming for, is to have that flexibility. She, right now—weekend, her chore will be dusting all the stuff and they would vacuum. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Your daughter, yes. NGUYEN: We don’t have a housekeeper or maid to do—we used to hire one, but we don’t because we do it ourselves. It’s exercise anyway, right? |01:00:51| BRODY: Right. So you do it together as a family. NGUYEN: The laundry, everything— American culture ; chores ; family ; gender differences ; parenting ; structure ; Vietnamese culture 3658 Identity as a Vietnamese American adaptability ; American identity ; culture ; flexibility ; identity ; Vietnamese Americans ; Vietnamese identity 3754 Impact of refugee experience on personality/Impact of discrimination and racism BRODY: Right. That flexibility. Some people have said that they feel like their experiences as a refugee have informed and made that flexibility part of their personality. Is that accurate for you? NGUYEN: Probably, yeah, because again, the refugee—that comes with the refugee because you have to. You left your mother country for freedom and opportunity. You have to. But again, also situation. For us, again, we’re at a young age and it’s easy for us to adapt and cope and do everything, but again—like, for instance, my brother—oh, he struggled. BRODY: Your oldest brother? NGUYEN: My second to the oldest, so he didn’t really—I don’t think—I think he just barely finished school. He was depressed. He don’t fit in. And then no school, no work— whatever. Right now, he’s a machinist, but what I’m saying is for a period of time, he don’t like it. It was hard for him to adapt and fit in. BRODY: Did he experience— NGUYEN: Language barrier and (??). discrimination ; English ; flexibility ; language ; language barrier ; prejudice ; racial slurs ; racism ; refugees 4088 Nguyen's father's imprisonment by Communists/Experience of other family members BRODY: That’s good advice, for sure. I just wanted to circle back and ask about your family—your parents. NGUYEN: Okay. So yeah, I can tell you about my parent. After we left, my father got caught and the Communists put him in prison for seven years. That’s for wanting for escape. My sister and my mom were struggling for years ; got no money, food, and things like that. We do send home money, but we were struggle here as well, and so during that time, my brother send money home, but you can’t send—it’s communist. You can’t send real money. You can send product, gifts, and I remember my brother sent home the toothpaste, they put gold in there—inside the toothpaste!—ounces or whatever—I was a kid—for them to spend. |01:09:19| BRODY: Did they get it? NGUYEN: Yes. They get some of the gift, but they getting smart. Back then, they don’t have anything for radar, or whatever system— BRODY: (both speaking at once) X-rays. NGUYEN: —X-ray system, yeah, to scan. But later on, you can’t. But during the eighties they can, so they send home—got gold to spend, but my father was in jail for seven years, and when he got out, he was really sick. They don’t have enough to eat. When they say they put you in jail, they mean put you in jail. Not the jail here that people give thing or take things for granted. You don’t get to TV, read, or get—have the degree. You messed up, you pay for it. None of this human right. So he got punished real bad. When he came out, he had to go operate on his intestine because he’d eaten bad, contaminated food because there wasn’t enough food, so I think that’s the problem that cost his life short. He passed away when he was seventy-something. But anyway, he got a operation. Took, like, three-quarters of his intestine away, and when he—then he got colon cancer afterward. That’s why he passed away shorter, but I think that’s contribute to his problem, because of the jail time. That’s seven years. BRODY: That’s a long time. NGUYEN: Long time. And my mom and my six sister—during that time, we had two came over—sent over on the boat. And so two of my sister came afterward, like, in ninety—’88 and ’92. And then recently, we have another sister came over four years ago, so we have total of seven of us. BRODY: Seven of you here, out of the ten. NGUYEN: Right. Ten. And then, three over there, but my oldest sister—she just passed away a few years ago. She suffered cancer too. BRODY: Oh. I’m so sorry. NGUYEN: But, yes. Two of them left there, and then my parents passed away too. BRODY: So the seven of you who are here are all in Dallas? NGUYEN: Yeah, most of them. My oldest one in California. He’s the one who do the construction and architecture and building. He would—he’s doing very well. Very, very well. He’s in Huntington Beach now. He buy land, and then he build houses and sell it, and California’s doing very well in housing. BRODY: Yeah. There’s a lot of people. (laughs) NGUYEN: For the price. (laughs) |01:12:24| BRODY: That’s it. Yes. The market is good there. California ; Communism ; Communists ; family ; immigration ; money ; political prisoners ; prison ; refugees 4348 Getting American citizenship/Reflections on identity and culture So the last sort of area—we’ve kind of touch on it a little bit, but it’s more on this question of identity. To you what does it mean to be American? You mentioned you achieved your citizenship, so tell me about what it meant to you to get American citizenship. NGUYEN: I—to be honest, I really didn’t think about that. To be, like—you know how some people, “Oh, yes!”? We’re not like that. In fact, my wife and I went the same time. We went and got naturalized the same time. We got the same—but again, it wasn’t a big deal for us. I guess we were young, so we became naturalized in eighty—’90, or something like that. Yeah. Ninety—I forgot, but long time ago. But for us, we weren’t like older people that dreamed to be an American immigrant, excited about. It’s just something that we needed to have or get, but it’s no problem for us. We’re younger. We passed it with flying color. So yeah, as far as that, I didn’t remember that, “Yes, I’m a US citizen now.” |01:13:54| BRODY: So after—it’s been a while since that happened and you became an American citizen, but what does it—reflecting back, what does it mean to you now to say, “I’m an American”? NGUYEN: I think American citizens should be proud to be a American citizen, and I’ll tell you why—because if you travel a lot and you go to different country and you experience stuff—experience life, experience with the people that you touches—you don’t know nowhere else you would rather want to be but here because, yes, we have our bads and good, but the freedom is outrageous here. I mean, look at that. Where else you go in the world that the president mess up something, you cuss and you mock him, and you do something? You got your freedom of speech! Nowhere else. Even some of the democratic country—some of them, you can’t do that. Like Taiwan, you can’t really say, but they’re democratic, right? Some of them. So we’ve been living in Hong Kong, Thailand, and we experienced all that. We’ve experience culture. We experience the economic, the food, the infrastructure, road—nothing compare to the US. You’ve got so much opportunity, so at the time when I was natural, I don’t feel like that. But now, you—I’m so proud because you go everywhere, you cannot have the same experience. It’s just amazing. You go to France or Europe—we haven’t been there. That’s our bucket list. But from what my father-in-law—nothing. Traffic, nowhere to have the car, the freedom to do anything—it’s all great. Very good. We’re lucky to be here. |01:16:14| BRODY: So back to that blended identity that you have ; what does it mean for you to be Vietnamese American? NGUYEN: Very proud. We have the heritage. We have the Vietnamese heritage, food— food is the best. When you get older, that’s all you think. (both laugh) It’s good. I feel that’s the best part is to be Vietnamese American, is that we live in this world of freedom and a melting pot of diversity. You can’t go anywhere and have the diversity that we have. I mean, now, we’re going backward. Look at Donald Trump about all this immigration things that he do, and you think back and you say, “This country was built on immigration.” This part is not all American. It belonged to American Indians, then we came and we conquer, and we are American. But that, because of the immigrant, create all this diversity. You name the food, you go out there and you get it. Vietnamese food is more(??) because of (??) one of the best one, but yeah. I’m so proud to be an American—Vietnamese American because to be here and to have that heritage is great. |01:17:56| BRODY: So a hundred years from now when you’re great-great-great-great-great- grandchildren might listen to this interview or read the transcript, or future scholars, is there anything that we haven’t talked about today yet that you think should be included or you think that they should know? NGUYEN: Don’t forget your heritage. Don’t forget your heritage. Open mind. Experience your heritage. Experience your Vietnamese culture as well. That’s the best thing that I want my kid to experience. We go back a whole lot to Vietnam, and they like it. I think my oldest son—he speak better Vietnamese when we went over there. We come back and know he get it. He can write too. So he’s just also the talented kid, but at least give it a chance and don’t forget your heritage. Give it a chance, because you see some kid that doesn’t have that. I’ll give you example. There’s a little kid, eleven, twelve years old. He’s Filipino and he think he’s white, and he’s making fun of—“Oh, you’re a ching-chong, right?” So it’s like, “Yes. You’re also Asian though!” (laughs) So I don’t want the kid to have that. Know where you’re from. |01:19:33| BRODY: That’s beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and for your story. It was wonderful to hear, and I’m very honored to be able to record it for this collection, so thank you very much. American citienship ; American identity ; citizenship ; culture ; democracy ; diversity ; food ; free speech ; freedom ; heritage ; identity ; immigration ; melting pot ; naturalizing ; opportunity ; parenting ; politics ; Vietnamese food ; Vietnamese language ; Vietnamese-American Baylor University Institute for Oral History Chad D. Nguyen Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody June 29, 2019 Murphy, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 29, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Chad Nguyen. This interview is taking place at Mr. Nguyen&#039 ; s house in Murphy, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the &quot ; Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans&quot ; project. All right, thank you so much for having me here to your home and for agreeing to this interview. To start out, could you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam? |00:00:33| NGUYEN: Okay. Life in Vietnam. I pretty much left Vietnam when I was a child, roughly around nine years old. As I best remember is that I came from a family pretty well-off. My mom and dad started out with nothing, and they--my dad was a fisherman, and they, over the year, very successful. During &#039 ; 75, he&#039 ; s considered one of the well-off people around the town in Danang. BRODY: In Danang. NGUYEN: Danang, Vietnam, which is middle part of the country. So my childhood-- nothing really struggle or anything like that, but when the communists came in and conquer--I guess, took the whole country, and my dad started to kind of have a--if he said whether we leave or not--leave Vietnam or not. So during that &#039 ; 75 time period, I was roughly, what, around five, six years old. He contemplated he&#039 ; s not going, and as the communist progressed, when they took over the country, they took everything from him--his life, all wealth. So during that four-, five-year period, he changed his mind and he started to try to escape from Vietnam. And as I remember, I was just so little--we wouldn&#039 ; t struggle or anything like that--like, food on the table or anything like that because he&#039 ; s well off, so when he senses that all his wealth and all that stuff taken away from him, he&#039 ; s starting to have a plan to escape from Vietnam during the &#039 ; 80. During that five period, it make him realize that we got to go because this is no future. You lose your freedom or whatnot, and so that&#039 ; s what he went through. |00:02:59| BRODY: Did you have any siblings? NGUYEN: We have ten total. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: Ten total sibling. I am the eighth kid, and I have two little sister at the time. Life, during that time before we left from Vietnam, it wasn&#039 ; t bad for us. Some families were worse just because they&#039 ; re struggling because they&#039 ; re not well-off, but we came from family wealth. |00:03:26| BRODY: After your dad made the decision, what happened then? NGUYEN: He make the decision to leave, and so he&#039 ; s a fisherman, so he had boats. He have ship that go out and do the fishing business, so he start with that. He organize dates and time. He paid the police to kind of look away so that he can go. So the original plan was that--during the &#039 ; 80, that after the new year--it was a new year, 1980, exactly--that after the new year, he&#039 ; s going to start leave. So his plan was, after the new year, he pretend like he&#039 ; s going to go out and fish. During that time, what&#039 ; s important for him was that--because during the eighties, the Vietnamese head-butts with the Chinese during that time, and he didn&#039 ; t want us, especially the boys, to be back in the country and fight for the communist Vietnam. So his plan was, when we leave, the boys have to be on the boat right away, so he snuck us out there first. We were pretending that we&#039 ; re fishing and all that, and coming back a day or two--where he paid the police at the beach to look away sort of deal--and pick up the whole family ; my grandfather, grandparents, my mom, and six of the sister. So the original plan was to snuck the four boy first on the boat, go out, and pretend like we&#039 ; re fishing, and then come back a day or two to the beach and pick everybody up. Anyway, there&#039 ; s two boat. When they come in, the other boat owner said, &quot ; Look. Your kids on this boat, then your side have to come in and pick up, because something goes wrong, then, you know. That&#039 ; s the deal.&quot ; So my father said, &quot ; Okay. I don&#039 ; t care. All I&#039 ; m worried about is my kid. He stay on this boat. I&#039 ; m on the other boat. We&#039 ; re going to go in the beach and pick up all the people--my parents and whoever.&quot ; Well, when we took off and he went into the beach, they already signal a smaller boat coming this way to tell them that, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t come in. They&#039 ; re going to capture you,&quot ; even though they paid money to let him go. He didn&#039 ; t see the signal and he took off, and the small boat came to our boat and said, &quot ; You better go because they&#039 ; re going to catch you,&quot ; so we abandoned my dad and we went to Hong Kong, because we went from the middle of the country and that&#039 ; s the best route to go. During that time, we already know--with the news, we already know my dad going to be captured, and that&#039 ; s how we started out. On the boat that we&#039 ; re on with the four brothers, we left for Hong Kong. And I think we are very fortunate, because if you&#039 ; re interview a lot of boat people--the story is not a very good outcome, and some of them very lucky to be alive and very lucky to come--the outcome, because people that go south instead of going north to Hong Kong, they encounter all sorts of thing. And there&#039 ; s a good amount of boat people that lost their life at sea that lost their life to a pirate, because I think, mainly, the pirates mainly from Thailand. |00:07:37| BRODY: So you didn&#039 ; t encounter anything like that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. That route, we already know. My dad know, during that period, that the Chinese won&#039 ; t do anything to you. They just left you alone. But, there&#039 ; s no--nothing. We just have enough food, water, and go to Hong Kong. BRODY: Right. So your dad-- NGUYEN: My dad stuck with the other boat. BRODY: Yeah, but was he okay, or no--? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. He got captured. BRODY: Okay. NGUYEN: Um-hm. So, that&#039 ; s how the story started when we left, just as(??) boat people. But like I said, we were just fortunate enough that where we at, our location, which is a mid-part of the country, and that&#039 ; s the route we go, and it&#039 ; s-- |00:08:23| BRODY: (both speaking at once) Just go straight there. So there was no incident. NGUYEN: No incident at all. We almost--I think--because back at the time, technology&#039 ; s not good, and these people--they rely on just a compass, and you heard the story--I&#039 ; m not sure--but some of them don&#039 ; t know how to use--and then they lost lives at sea too. But they use a compass and they just head in that direction on the compass and go, but we were okay because we&#039 ; re--our boat was big. We had plenty of water and supply, and I believe one night before we got there, there&#039 ; s another Chinese boat that we encounter that point us to the right direction. Then we arrived in Hong Kong port, like, in &#039 ; 80. But yeah, we were fortunate enough that nothing happened to our boat. BRODY: (both speaking at once) So you said that the boat was big and you had enough supplies. Was that--who had organized-- NGUYEN: My dad. BRODY: Your dad did. NGUYEN: Yeah. My dad did. I mean, the boat that he have considered to be the biggest fishing boat in the business back then. You hear the story about small boat, and there&#039 ; s tons of people in the water up to here where you sit, and those are perilous people that die at sea. Our boat was huge. No problem. BRODY: No problem. NGUYEN: But that&#039 ; s because he had the plan. |00:09:52| BRODY: Right. So you were with your brothers--three brothers? NGUYEN: Three, so four of us. BRODY: So four of you all together. So when the four of you arrived in Hong Kong, what happened then? NGUYEN: We arrive Hong Kong. They took us to another boat that afloat in the middle of the port--Hong Kong port, and we stayed there for, I believe, couple of days--two or three. I was a little kid. I believe I stayed there a couple of days, and they supply--I mean, Hong Kongs get the supply--food and water. I remember I had my first Wonder Bread sandwich, because we&#039 ; d never eaten that before in Vietnam, and we were like, Wow! BRODY: What&#039 ; d you think of it? NGUYEN: It was good! (Brody laughs) Plus, we eat different food, and this is something different, and we were like, Wow, that&#039 ; s good! But Hong Kong treated us really, really nice--really well ; feed us and blanket, water within two days. Afterward, they took us to the refugee camp. |00:11:08| BRODY: So you were in that floating boat in the harbor for just two--and then, they moved you to a camp in Hong Kong. NGUYEN: In Hong Kong. Um-hm. BRODY: How long were you there? NGUYEN: Total, like, nine months--eight and a half months. We left new year, so somewhere around January, February--new year for Chinese New Year--and we got there, and then we left Hong Kong in October. Roughly about nine months in. And-- BRODY: Nineteen eighty, still. NGUYEN: Right. When we got there, it&#039 ; s 1980, October, in that exact month. BRODY: Was that camp run by the United Nations? NGUYEN: No. That camp--actually, I believe, maybe it was a--I&#039 ; m not sure, but you know Hong Kong is governed by the UK, right? So to be honest, I&#039 ; m not sure about that, but we interviewed with the people, and they spoke with the British accent-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) Yes, the British accent. NGUYEN: --but I&#039 ; m not sure where they--it&#039 ; s probably, maybe, some sort of--I don&#039 ; t know, but some organization that--for refugees. I remember that. It was a British accent. |00:12:28| BRODY: Yeah. (laughs) So the--while you were in the camp, did you need to locate a sponsor? How did you end up in Texas? NGUYEN: Okay. So to kind of backtrack, during &#039 ; 75, when the communist took the country, my uncle, during that time--&#039 ; 75--and he told my brother--my father, which is his brother--he said, &quot ; Look. This is not going to be good,&quot ; --because he&#039 ; s the one in the army for the South Vietnamese, the democratic part. And he said, &quot ; Look. They taking the country. You got to go now, and you have a boat.&quot ; And during &#039 ; 75, it&#039 ; s easy. Your family snuck out, and you&#039 ; re gone. You&#039 ; d be free. But my dad just lingering, and he said, &quot ; No. I don&#039 ; t want to do that. So what if the communist come? There a bunch of Vietnamese people here. If they can survive, I can survive too, you know? And this is my home land.&quot ; So he said, &quot ; No. I don&#039 ; t want to go.&quot ; So my uncle and his family just took off in &#039 ; 75 and made it here during, like, seventy-something, and so they&#039 ; re here. BRODY: In Texas? NGUYEN: In--it was Florida, but he moved to Texas, and that&#039 ; s the uncle and aunt that sponsor us from Hong Kong. So we didn&#039 ; t have to go through any kind of church organization. Some--a lot of people do, but we don&#039 ; t. We have our own relative, so that&#039 ; s good. |00:14:16| BRODY: So did you first go to Florida then? NGUYEN: No. He actually moved from Florida to Texas during the &#039 ; 80, and he&#039 ; s a well- off man too. He got his own restaurant, so he sponsored us. It&#039 ; s pretty--I mean, it&#039 ; s easier if you have some sort of foot in, good establishment, so we didn&#039 ; t have any problem getting a sponsor, whereas some people do if they don&#039 ; t have any support. So that&#039 ; s-- BRODY: So all four of you were sponsored by your aunt and uncle. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. All four. We came--four of us. Just wait for the paperwork, and we on the plane a few months--nine months later to arrive in Houston, Texas. |00:14:53| BRODY: In Houston. So tell me about your first days in Houston. NGUYEN: First day in Houston? It&#039 ; s kind of a shock because during that period of time, we never--we were kids. We&#039 ; re not exposed to anything, especially cars. When we first arrived--well, the first thing is the plane for us as a kid. It was like, Wow, I&#039 ; m on a plane! But when we land in--on the way from the airport home, we&#039 ; re like, Amazing. This is--cars everywhere, because we&#039 ; d never seen so many cars, (laughs) and we&#039 ; re all like, Where&#039 ; s all the people? No people walking. No bike. It just a total wow experience. Everybody talked about, Oh, man, everybody in the US own a car. We were like, Oh, you got to be six--really rich to own a car! And we just witnessed that, so it was, like, Wow--jaw-dropping. BRODY: You were blown away. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I was a ten-years-old kid, and that&#039 ; s how we started our life in Houston. |00:16:03| BRODY: What was your housing situation like? NGUYEN: My uncle arrange it. He has a--we live in apartment for a few months, but he had a house and then he brought us in, also, with my other--with the other side. He had two family, the husband side and the wife side, that he sponsor. BRODY: Wow. So he sponsored the whole family. NGUYEN: Um-hm. We would thank him for that, but yeah. He sponsored us. We really don&#039 ; t--I think back, we fortunate enough that, because my uncle, we don&#039 ; t have any struggle that a lot of people have, like, as far as job and housing, and they pretty much took care of us, like find us jobs and things like that. BRODY: Tell me about your jobs. Well, you were very young, so you were in school. |00:17:05| NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) No. I already--I was in school. Right. The funny thing about school with me is that at the time, my brother lower my age. BRODY: Why did he do that? NGUYEN: Because the mentality is that if you&#039 ; re young, you want to go to school to learn English. You don&#039 ; t want to be old and stuff, so he lower two and a half years old, and then (laughs) the older kids and the older middle-age, they would bump up the age so they would retire early! (Brody laughs) That&#039 ; s how they know how the system works here, is that you can retire early if you--whatever. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Reach the age. NGUYEN: Right. So that&#039 ; s how most of the--some of them were--they tell the real age, but most of us, we either lowered the age or add a few more years older. Like, my wife did the same thing. She&#039 ; s younger--two years younger than she&#039 ; s supposed to. BRODY: (both speaking at once) That&#039 ; s really funny. It&#039 ; s flexible. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yeah. And now, I have the certificate that I can&#039 ; t change it back! (Brody laughs) What they heard is that you can change them. (laughs) BRODY: You can&#039 ; t change, so it&#039 ; s going to affect your retirement. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yes. Yes. |00:18:28| BRODY: So in school, what grade--they bumped you down, so what grade did you start in? NGUYEN: So, I started sixth grade--well, yeah, sixth grade. I was kind of like--jump a few grades when I was in Vietnam, so I was sixth grade and I was ten years old--ten and a half years old. So, when they--when my brother lowered my age, he put me in fourth grade to start, so I&#039 ; m two grade down to start with! So I started fourth grade in the elementary school in Alief, Texas, down in Houston. School was fun, and got its up and down during that period. Kids would make fun of me. |00:19:30| BRODY: Did people make fun of you? NGUYEN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, racist, prejudice--it&#039 ; s worse back then. BRODY: Yeah. Tell me more about that, about your experiences with that. NGUYEN: In school, a lot of kids--especially white kids--they mock your language and they do eye thing, and it&#039 ; s just-- BRODY: How did you handle that? NGUYEN: (laughs) Okay, I&#039 ; m going to tell the truth. Okay, so I was in school, and I think it&#039 ; s my second year, fifth grade, and this kid always making fun. A lot of kid making fun of me, but this kid named Todd, I remember him until today ; tall--taller than I am--freckle-faced kid, white kid, and he keep bothering me. One day at the library, he keep--somehow, he keep bothering--I couldn&#039 ; t handle it. I couldn&#039 ; t--you know. I kick him in the crotch real hard! (both laugh) And at that point, the ESL teacher--I didn&#039 ; t know much of the language--didn&#039 ; t know much English yet, and the teacher--ESL teacher--call me and they said, &quot ; Oh, no! Don&#039 ; t do this!&quot ; And then at that point on forward, all the kid heard and they didn&#039 ; t bother me anymore! (laughs) But yeah. You know kids ; they make fun of you because you&#039 ; re different. I mean, worse then than now. |00:21:14| BRODY: So I know a lot of people from Vietnam ended up in Houston, but in your particular school, were there other Vietnamese children? NGUYEN: Yes. There&#039 ; s another kid that been there, Wan, and he&#039 ; s the one who translate stuff to English. BRODY: For you. NGUYEN: Yeah. Met one of those kid from Houston from the school. There&#039 ; s few kids Vietnamese. I think that Alief was mainly--not a whole lot back then of Vietnamese community, but now it&#039 ; s huge. (??), but there&#039 ; s few Vietnamese kid. BRODY: At that time. NGUYEN: At that time. |00:21:55| BRODY: So were your brothers in the same school as you? NGUYEN: My brother--about my brother, I&#039 ; m the youngest, so I was ten. The one next to me, he was, I think, fifteen or fourteen--fifteen, something like that, and the one before him is two years older. And then my oldest brother, he&#039 ; s, like, twenty- something--twenty-one. BRODY: Did he go to work? NGUYEN: Yes. So for him, he went to work. I was in elementary, and my other two brothers in high school. My oldest brother was--he was college educated in Vietnam, and so he started to doing drafting. His language wasn&#039 ; t good, so he didn&#039 ; t wanted to go back to college because he&#039 ; s a little bit older--twenty-something, twenty-four, something like that--and so he went for drafting school, and it turns out he liked it. Then he becomes a builder, like a carpenter fixing houses and drawing the place, and that&#039 ; s what he&#039 ; s doing now. BRODY: He still does that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) He&#039 ; s build house. Uh-huh. And my other two brother--they went to school, finish high school, but didn&#039 ; t go to college. We just had to work and support ourself, because you can&#039 ; t depending on your relative for--they just get you on your toes to get going. They have to work and support. |00:23:42| BRODY: What kind of work did they do? NGUYEN: My other brothers--well, before they went to work, we moved to Dallas first. So when my brother didn&#039 ; t have a job--the oldest one didn&#039 ; t have a job--he followed this other guy, kind of like his apprentice--building houses, fixing house, remodeling home, thing like that--and he followed him up here from Houston, and I think we stayed in Houston about four, five--three years. And then we started moving up here with him because he got a job up here. And so all four brother move to Richardson, Texas, and my brother go to Richardson High School. And so the oldest one only worked, and then my other one just working part-time, like at 7-Eleven convenience store, and make some money for sure(??). BRODY: Right. So all of you four brothers living together in Dallas. What part of Dallas--were you in Richardson? NGUYEN: Richardson. BRODY: And then you went to the high school, so you were in middle school at that point? NGUYEN: Yep. BRODY: Where did you go to middle school? NGUYEN: I went to West--did they call it middle school? BRODY: Junior high. NGUYEN: Junior high. Yes. West Junior High. |00:25:07| BRODY: (both speaking at once) West Junior High, and then Richardson High School. So what was it like for you? It sounds like you were the brother who had the most time in American schools. By the time you got to high school, how did you feel about being in an American school? NGUYEN: I think after we left Dallas--I mean, Houston--I don&#039 ; t have any culture thing that making fun of you anymore, so when I came here in Richardson, I joined sport and I loved sport. BRODY: What sports? NGUYEN: Football. And when you&#039 ; re in sport, I think it helped for me, at least, that you don&#039 ; t get kids to make fun of you. You fit into some--a group, right? And so I was in sport for--really, for small kid. Really, I&#039 ; m bigger than they are because I&#039 ; m two years older. So I joined the football team, but I&#039 ; m small kid anyway, size-wise--just more mature--but I joined football and I enjoyed it and we had a blast. All the kid look up to me because I was pretty good. I was--at West, I was, like, three years--seven, eight, nine--yeah, three years most valuable player. We go to the banquet. It&#039 ; s pretty cool. BRODY: That&#039 ; s very cool. NGUYEN: And then I also do track and field. BRODY: What position did you play in football? NGUYEN: I play running back, and then linebacker. BRODY: Really? And then in track and field, what were your events? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Track and field, I&#039 ; d sprint the hundred meter, the two- hundred [meter], and the quarter mile, and then both of the relays--the four-hundred meter and the mile relay. |00:27:11| BRODY: And did you do football in high school, at Richardson High School? NGUYEN: Yes. And then--I&#039 ; m getting to that. So all those three years is fine. So the year when I came back, sophomore, everybody was just poofed up back then, like, in the groups. BRODY: Everybody grew. NGUYEN: Yeah. And it&#039 ; s--I was at JV football in Richardson High School, and my size just hundred and thirty pound. All the kids--(laughs) so I decided, &quot ; Man, this not going to work. I&#039 ; m just a shrimp.&quot ; (both laugh) So I quit. I was just going to do track and field, and then one of the football coach--he also coach wrestling, and so he recruited me. &quot ; Hey, Chad,&quot ; --well, my name wasn&#039 ; t Chad back then. That wasn&#039 ; t a person--citizen yet, but--&quot ; You want to try out wrestling?&quot ; And I looked at him. I said, &quot ; Oh, man. This is sissy sport.&quot ; He said, &quot ; No. This is good for you. Go come and try out,&quot ; so I went and try out, and I liked it. Give me something to do. I always want to be a part of something, a team. I liked the structure, basically. That&#039 ; s why--I think part of it is why I play sport, is the structure. So I joined wrestling and wrestled the rest three year from high school until graduated. BRODY: You enjoyed it? NGUYEN: Yeah. I enjoyed it. |00:28:46| BRODY: Did you still do track and field? NGUYEN: No, because at that point, like I said, I&#039 ; m not growing. (laughs) It&#039 ; s just that I think my advantage in junior high is that maybe I&#039 ; m older, maybe, and I&#039 ; m doing really better, but once I don&#039 ; t have the size, and the older kid--when they catch up, it&#039 ; s just hard for me. |00:29:17| BRODY: What about the academic side and the social side of going to school? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. The academic side--when I was in school, I didn&#039 ; t try real hard. I&#039 ; m doing okay. I got an A average to graduate, but--because I think, for me, is that I don&#039 ; t have parents to push me too. And look back, I think that I&#039 ; m lucky the way I turned out because some other kid like me without parent turn bad. There&#039 ; s no guiding and no directions too. BRODY: What do you think made a difference for you? Why were you able to avoid that? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Because in my mind, when we first arrived, I said I wanted to do something. I&#039 ; m not going to be a bum. I&#039 ; m going to be successful, and I think that&#039 ; s the mindset. Although I&#039 ; m not trying too hard for my--during my high school year, but I&#039 ; m okay. And things not too hard for me to get school, in honored course and all that, and AP, and stuff like that. I&#039 ; m in the courses, but I&#039 ; m not trying to my full potential. That&#039 ; s what I felt. Also, because I&#039 ; m in sport, we stayed in. We practiced until six, seven sometime--five, six, seven--four hours after school, but the way it turned out, I&#039 ; m glad. I met her through high school. |00:31:00| BRODY: Oh. You met your wife in high school, yes. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Um-hm. BRODY: So tell me about how you met. NGUYEN: Okay. So I was end of my junior year. (laughs) End of my junior year, and I bump into her--not &quot ; bump&quot ; literally, but in contact with her. Then so we make arrangement and we dated that summer. And then the next year, I went into senior year. We see each other, and then we make plans. Okay, we&#039 ; re going to go to college, and Which college, and all that. So I think, for us--my wife and I--we&#039 ; re more mature than any other kid like I see now, because we set goals and things like that. When I met her, I said, &quot ; Okay, that&#039 ; s it. She&#039 ; s my wife. She&#039 ; s my love.&quot ; To be honest, I didn&#039 ; t propose to her, right, but we already know--she kind of know that we&#039 ; re going to get married, but not until we get out of college, and that&#039 ; s what we did. So we--I graduate one year before her and I didn&#039 ; t go anywhere. I attended UNT [University of North Texas], driving back and forth, and then when she graduated, we all both went to [Texas] A&amp ; M together. BRODY: That must&#039 ; ve been a lot of coordination for you to pull that off. NGUYEN: Yeah. Lot of driving, I guess. I guess it&#039 ; s, like, pretty good drive--forty- something mile each way, right? BRODY: Yeah. NGUYEN: Every day for a year. I didn&#039 ; t want to stay up there. Plus, (laughs) didn&#039 ; t want spend the money. I don&#039 ; t have the money too! Yeah. |00:32:51| BRODY: That makes sense. That&#039 ; s a really nice story though, that you met each other in high school. In high school and during the time once you got to Dallas, what are your memories of the larger Vietnamese community at that time? NGUYEN: At that time, it&#039 ; s not so much like right now. We remember the biggest Vietnamese community probably in Garland, because everything we do, we go to Garland for-- BRODY: You were very active there. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Not--we&#039 ; re from Richardson, but I&#039 ; m talking about as far as shops, restaurant, and grocery, it&#039 ; s all there. We go, and that&#039 ; s how our contact with our Vietnamese community would be--like, go to the grocery and we run into them and things like that, but that&#039 ; s-- BRODY: All local. NGUYEN: In Garland is the biggest Vietnamese community back then, because when I&#039 ; m in Richardson, Richardson wasn&#039 ; t that many, you know, like Plano back then-- there&#039 ; s nothing in Richardson back then anyway--only the central line--but it wasn&#039 ; t that big of a community thing, even in Garland. Just smaller. |00:34:10| BRODY: Did you socialize or attend religious functions or cultural functions at that time? NGUYEN: We didn&#039 ; t go to--I mean, to be honest, during that time people worry--we worry about making money, get your life, go work, so we weren&#039 ; t really concentrating on, Oh, okay. We&#039 ; re going to be attending this community. So everybody had their own thing. BRODY: Right. Surviving. NGUYEN: Right. Surviving. So time to time, we were--especially during certain holiday--Buddhist holiday--then we go to temple, and then we see a lot of people in there. Those are the function we would go. But in general, there&#039 ; s not really a community that you connect with and you go to back then. BRODY: Day-to-day. NGUYEN: Right. Day-to-day. BRODY: Just more-- NGUYEN: No. I mean, of course you have some kid or people my brother worked with that are Vietnamese, but the work place is same thing with the school. You just see them here. |00:35:20| BRODY: You see people there, but not necessarily as part of your daily social life, right? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Correct. Because like you said, that we&#039 ; re there to survive more first, that first few years. Right now, it&#039 ; s just better. I think it&#039 ; s better. They have community that you can go to, get together, things like that. But I think during that time, it&#039 ; s all about surviving--make a living, support yourself. |00:35:52| BRODY: Right. So again, back to learning English. We haven&#039 ; t really talked about that very much. Starting in Houston, and then on here in Richardson--how did that go? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Well, I did learn a little bit because my father--he hired tutor and would teach us that broken English or whatever they can teach. I picked up few things and hear things, but still, fluently, you can&#039 ; t. So that started, and I think I picked that after two years--one, two years--because you&#039 ; re a kid. You pick up really fast. BRODY: So you did ESL in Houston. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) ESL in Houston. And then, I think I didn&#039 ; t do any more ESL after two years--fourth, fifth, and then, sixth, then I&#039 ; m gone. I&#039 ; m out of there. It was just two years of ESL. BRODY: What were some of the hardest things about learning a new language? NGUYEN: You know, I didn&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s hard for me. I think part of it because I&#039 ; m ten, eleven years old. I mean, if you come at a time where you&#039 ; re in the teenage year, you&#039 ; re a little bit older, and then your tongue is stuck with the mother language and it&#039 ; s hard to pronounce everything right. |00:37:11| BRODY: Was it harder for your brothers? NGUYEN: My brother--my older brother in Dallas struggle a little bit, and I think part of that--the second to the oldest--part of that, he didn&#039 ; t do too well because of the language. BRODY: Right. The timing. NGUYEN: Yeah--the language that he struggle, because I think he start out in eleventh--tenth or eleventh grade, and that just too much for him, for the language barrier. Now, my other--the brother that next to me, he&#039 ; s very good. He&#039 ; s--math, everything. He&#039 ; s very smart guy, but he didn&#039 ; t like to go to school. (laughs) He didn&#039 ; t want to go to school! He would fail in PE [physical education] and ace on his, like, algebra test, but he didn&#039 ; t want to go to school. I guess, back to the surviving, you&#039 ; ve got to make money to support, because nobody going to pay for college, so that&#039 ; s why-- that&#039 ; s part of the reason that he didn&#039 ; t go to. |00:38:20| BRODY: Right. So for you, you went to UNT for a year, and then the two of you went to--you and your wife--or, not-yet-wife at that point-- NGUYEN: Girlfriend. (laughs) BRODY: --girlfriend, at that point--went to Texas A&amp ; M. How did you choose Texas A&amp ; M and--tell me about that time period of your life. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Okay. So the story is that we know where we want to go, and there&#039 ; s two school here, and we can&#039 ; t afford private school, obviously, so the two school there is UT and then A&amp ; M. I think we chose A&amp ; M because we thought that maybe the UT--Austin is a party school. (both laugh) That&#039 ; s what the logic is. So I think we choose A&amp ; M because of that, and we visit the campus. My wife and I went there and we liked it. It&#039 ; s open. It&#039 ; s not very congested or crowded, and so that&#039 ; s why we choose A&amp ; M. |00:39:30| BRODY: And did it prove to be a good choice? (laughs) NGUYEN: Yeah. It&#039 ; s very good choice. Yeah. We liked it. We liked it a lot. I think during that time of our college year, we had a huge--compare now--Vietnamese American Student Association. BRODY: Really? NGUYEN: And we had fun. I look back. We had a whole lot of fun because they always had some function just for Vietnamese American student, and talk--looking back now, they have hardly, because all the kids are now--they&#039 ; re more Americanized than us. We think we&#039 ; re Americanized already, but now is the third--what, third generation? BRODY: Right. NGUYEN: It&#039 ; s not the same. They&#039 ; re not doing the same thing that we do. BRODY: Right. I want to come back to that in a minute, but first, I&#039 ; m so interested to hear more about the A&amp ; M Vietnamese American Student Association. It was big. How many students do you think were--? NGUYEN: Were big then, but few hundred--three, four hundred kids. BRODY: (both speaking at once) That is big. That is big. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Three, four hundred kids. |00:40:42| BRODY: And what kind of functions and activities did they have? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) They had musical function, food--things like that. BRODY: (both speaking at once) What kind of food? NGUYEN: Vietnamese food that we tried to learn to make sometime. BRODY: Oh, so would you cook it. NGUYEN: Somebody did. Some ladies, right, honey? (calling out to his wife in the next room ; Brody and Nguyen laugh) And then, time to time, they had host certain event, and then we have Vietnamese singer concert. |00:41:11| BRODY: Yeah. So that&#039 ; s interesting because up until the time that you went to college, you were all just trying to survive and not really--didn&#039 ; t have a lot of time, it sounds like, to focus on the culture and the food and things like that. So tell me how--describe your feelings when you realized that there was this Vietnamese American student organization and there were other students that shared your experience. NGUYEN: I feel like I fit in also, because we&#039 ; re here in the country, during that time, and we don&#039 ; t have anybody, and now, this experience in college--we have older kids-- compare, right?(??)--and we have our age, and all this character of this old memory-- old people. Like, not really old but--for instance, there&#039 ; s this guy that much older than us, probably ten, maybe a little bit more--that he went there, and his characteristic is hard to describe. Like, he would drink tea and he would make fun of us in a nicer way. He would make fun of my wife&#039 ; s bike and things like that in the Vietnamese language, and I felt like, Oh, okay. And I think that because of that also, I think that we maintain our language, and--I&#039 ; m speaking for me, but my wife also--but we are able to maintain the language in writing, whereas some don&#039 ; t, because like, my cousin, they came same age as I am. A lot of them don&#039 ; t speak as good as a Vietnamese, or read and write Vietnamese. So I think that that&#039 ; s the reason why that I liked a whole lot, the experience from college--the Vietnamese Association. Now, I ask my son now--he&#039 ; s in college--and they don&#039 ; t have as big because I think they are more Americanized now. Even if they have some sort of function like that, they probably won&#039 ; t speak any Vietnamese, but in English. But it&#039 ; s a different generation. It&#039 ; s going to change. |00:43:51| BRODY: And during that time period--I mean, you had actually come from Vietnam, as opposed to growing up here, even though you did both. That&#039 ; s really interesting. It sounds like that was a really meaningful organization for both of you. So that makes me think to ask you: how do you--at that period of time, how did you think of yourself, in terms of your identity? NGUYEN: I--that&#039 ; s the period where I really proud of myself, really, because looking back, if I went to another school and experienced something, I might turn out to be different. Looking at it, I think that&#039 ; s why we--my wife and I--just love Vietnam so much. We like the social interaction. Like, my wife would love to go out in Vietnam on the street and we love that, and that--my wife and I just on the same page, and we already say, Okay, we retire, we go over there. BRODY: Really? You&#039 ; d like to retire in Vietnam? Or visit? NGUYEN: Visit for long period of time. But yes, we like those interaction, especially in the language and the action. The culture--you go see and know everybody, and--I don&#039 ; t know, but I came at a young age and I&#039 ; m still having that feeling, and I&#039 ; m so grateful for that because some other kid don&#039 ; t. They just say, Oh, no, I&#039 ; m American now. But that&#039 ; s what I think I&#039 ; m proud of, is to have that. BRODY: Have both. NGUYEN: Yeah. Have that, and then--yeah. I mean, we would go to Vietnam and we wouldn&#039 ; t get sick of it, where we can stay there, won&#039 ; t get sick of it. We would go out, and mingle with the people and talk and things like that, in Vietnamese, of course. |00:46:05| BRODY: Right. Now that the community here--the Vietnamese community in this area of North Texas is larger, are you involved with a lot of Vietnamese functions and events here? NGUYEN: I don&#039 ; t because I&#039 ; m so busy. We got three kids, and hopefully--I was talking to my wife about it--hopefully, when we retire, then we start doing more stuff, because we don&#039 ; t have free time. But now our life is just--revolves around our kids, especially we have the--what, eleven years old now? I hope she go to college. We&#039 ; re going to go-- (laughs) but yeah. We dedicated our time to our kids, and so we don&#039 ; t do a lot of those function. |00:46:58| BRODY: As you got older and got into college and doing that, what was the next chapter of your life? NGUYEN: Retirement. (both laugh) BRODY: So you&#039 ; re working now, though. Before you retire, what line of work are you in? NGUYEN: I was--okay. So I graduated A&amp ; M with a electrical engineering degree, and my wife was accounting, so when we graduated in &#039 ; 94, jobs lined up everywhere. You graduate that time, you had four or five jobs to choose from, and so we went back. So we got--I got a job offer here at TI, and got a job offer in Houston--Compaq--and so we choose to go to Houston and go back to where I came from. So when we graduate, I choose to work for Compaq and she work for Enron, and we started our lives there after we got married. Back to that, we graduated in end of--beginning of &#039 ; 95. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. She graduated &#039 ; 95. We got our degree. Two weeks, we got married. It was after college. And then we took off for our honeymoon, and then we went to Vietnam for a whole month before we start our job. We already accepted our job, but that&#039 ; s--it was--(laughs) BRODY: So you went back to Vietnam for your honeymoon. NGUYEN: Yes, for a month, and I think we hadn&#039 ; t been back there for, like, twenty years--fifteen, twenty years--something like that. And then we came back and start our job in Houston. She was accountant for Enron. I was doing electrical engineering design--chip design for Compaq. |00:49:03| BRODY: So you stayed in Houston, and then-- NGUYEN: Stayed in Houston--oh, what year, honey? (talking to his wife in the next room) Four, five year? Five years. Five years. So we got married and stayed there, and three years later we had our first kid, and that&#039 ; s the reason why we came back here, because her family&#039 ; s here and mine&#039 ; s also here. So working for three, four years there. We had our first child, and then six months, we moved back to Dallas, and she didn&#039 ; t even have a job. We just dropped it off and dropped down everything in Houston and we moved, sold everything, and bought a house. BRODY: Brought the baby. NGUYEN: Right. Brought the baby. |00:49:58| BRODY: Where did you move when you got back to the Dallas area? NGUYEN: We built a house here in Murphy in &#039 ; 99, and during that time, we stayed with my mother-in-law--she have a house in Garland--for a few months before our house being built. Then we move in October &#039 ; 99 here, and we&#039 ; ve been here since. That&#039 ; s twenty years. BRODY: That&#039 ; s twenty years, yes. And then you found jobs and everything, and so-- NGUYEN: Well, (laughs) I lost my job a year and half later, when I came here to Dallas. BRODY: The economy. NGUYEN: Yes. The 9/11 whole deal was pretty bad, and I was pretty depressed for months because going to school, and now I don&#039 ; t have a job. Then I start looking for something to do. My wife and I went and got into real estate for a while, and then I found a job doing IT work, which is what I do now ; IT support easier. I went back to engineering for a few months and I didn&#039 ; t like it anymore. It&#039 ; s just like, you&#039 ; re in the enclosed office and coding and things like that, and I got away from it, and then I didn&#039 ; t like it anymore. I think part of--I think I&#039 ; m so lucky to--it&#039 ; s part of my career choice, is because I have option, thanks to my wife. She also work. Otherwise, I would have probably pursued engineer and stressful. But she&#039 ; s work, and the story with me is that-- what year was it, honey? In--yeah, in 2000--yeah, 2000--I had a heart attack. |00:52:17| BRODY: Oh, no! NGUYEN: Right? In the middle of a Friday morning, I had a heart attack. I didn&#039 ; t know what it was. I just know how I felt, and I had a heart attack, and I told my wife, &quot ; Call 911,&quot ; and she thought I&#039 ; m kidding, or--because she was little, and we always played the 911--and I come out this room. I lay down, say, &quot ; Honey, call 911! I don&#039 ; t know what happened to me, but call 911!&quot ; So the guy wheeled me out the ambulance and hooked me up EKG, said, &quot ; You have a heart attack,&quot ; (laughs) so I went to the hospital and they put a stent in my-- BRODY: How old were you? NGUYEN: Forty-two. BRODY: Wow. I&#039 ; m really sorry to hear that. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. And I wasn&#039 ; t overweight or anything like that, or smoking, or--it just happened, and the doctor says, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t look very good sometime.&quot ; And then at that point on, I think I went easy on the stress, and that&#039 ; s why I was doing IT. Plus, at the time, we have three kids. I think, like I said, I&#039 ; m lucky because both of us are working, so some had to make sacrifice. So I took the easier job. |00:53:43| BRODY: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it made you think about-- NGUYEN: And then, come home and take care of everything about the kids. So--but, yeah. I&#039 ; m fortunate, and I&#039 ; m really lucky that I&#039 ; m alive. BRODY: That&#039 ; s nice. I&#039 ; m glad that you&#039 ; re well now. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) But, yeah. It was a shock. But now--after that, now I&#039 ; m just, like, two things in my life now that I work on hardly--I mean, work at it--is my health and my kids. So my ritual thing is I walk three, four miles a day, and I work, and then I run. I go out and run marathon, and things like that, to get the heart. BRODY: Right. Take care of your heart. NGUYEN: Yeah. Um-hm. But-- |00:54:35| BRODY: You mentioned your kids. So you&#039 ; ve got three children. What has it been like for you, being a parent of children who were born here and are Americans? (laughs) NGUYEN: I think the environment we in when we were raised--I think we&#039 ; re more protective of them and want to provide for them the best that we can, because we feel like we struggling when we were little. We had to work harder and things like that. So for us, we were protective. We want to, at the same time, provide the best that we can for them, give them education, things like that. But I mean, that&#039 ; s the whole thing about us, is that, Okay, after she&#039 ; s gone to college, our job is done as a parent and we can go to retire. So again, that&#039 ; s the two thing. The most important thing for me right now is my kids--make sure they&#039 ; re okay--and then my health--make sure I&#039 ; m okay--and everything&#039 ; s going to be okay! |00:55:50| BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. Those are good priorities to have. You and your wife both kind of had a foot in both worlds. It sounds like you were very comfortable in Vietnam and at home with Vietnamese culture and food and all of that, but yet, you also are Aggies, you know? You&#039 ; re Texans and you are here. So how do you balance those two sides of your experience? NGUYEN: Well, you know, I think we adapt to change better, as far as for me and my wife. Like, I&#039 ; ll give you an example for this. If we go back to Vietnam, the weather&#039 ; s hot, we wouldn&#039 ; t complain. We can ride it out. We&#039 ; re okay with that. Whereas, the second generation and born here, they go to Vietnam, &quot ; Ah, that&#039 ; s too hot!&quot ; That&#039 ; s because we had the luxury of living both Vietnamese culture when we were growing up, even though we came at a little age, but we still have that experience and we&#039 ; re okay with that, so I think that&#039 ; s an advantage for us. Another thing is that food--we eat a lot of fermented fish stuff, which stinks. (both laugh) I admit it, but it taste so darn good for us! Now, all the second generation or the third that won&#039 ; t touches that, and I think you can&#039 ; t force them, right? But I think they lose out on that, to me, because they don&#039 ; t have the experience. BRODY: Right. The taste, maybe, of your childhood. NGUYEN: So, again, we&#039 ; re fortunate that we share those two different culture-- American culture and the Vietnamese culture. |00:57:48| BRODY: What is the part of American culture that you enjoy the most? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I like structure, whereas in Vietnamese family, we don&#039 ; t have structure. Most of them don&#039 ; t have structure. BRODY: What do you mean? NGUYEN: Like sleep time, everything, do this and that, chore--like, in Vietnamese culture, the boy never do anything. They don&#039 ; t cook, clean. They just eat and go, right? And the girl have to do everything. The girl have to cook, right? So here, we do everything. My family--my daughter and my son--will do everything. They do chore. The boys cook the rice. He cook. He wash the dishes. So we&#039 ; re trying to-- BRODY: Share all the-- NGUYEN: --share everything. Okay. That is a good thing. So we kind of-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) That&#039 ; s the piece of American culture that you kind of melded into your family. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Exactly. Melded into--I mean, most of American here--the kid don&#039 ; t want to do anything too, just like--right? (both laugh) BRODY: Right. So-- NGUYEN: But we trained them, sort of, to do that, and I keep telling them, &quot ; Seeing you do things for thirty minute--washing dishes--I can do it in ten, (Brody laughs) but I want you to do it because when you&#039 ; re out there on your own, you&#039 ; re able to wash the dishes, or know how to.&quot ; I&#039 ; ll give you example, and it make me feel so good, is that my son went to [Texas] Tech and he share apartment with these kids--these white kids--and they don&#039 ; t do anything. The dishes high, and that would bother my son, and he complained to me, &quot ; Dad, they don&#039 ; t know how to do anything! They don&#039 ; t know how to do dishes!&quot ; And now I realized that he learned. We preach, but he won&#039 ; t--we feel like he won&#039 ; t listen, but they do listen. Things like that make me feel good to know, okay, at least--I thought they didn&#039 ; t listen to me, but little things like that, like cleaning. He cook. He able to do laundry whenever they would come home with stinky basket. (laughs) They do all that, so that&#039 ; s good. Little things that know more every day that you can take care of yourself--laundry, the cooking. You don&#039 ; t have to be extravagant, but know how at least, cook rice and feed yourself, instead of--yeah. But, that&#039 ; s what we aiming for, is to have that flexibility. She, right now--weekend, her chore will be dusting all the stuff and they would vacuum. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Your daughter, yes. NGUYEN: We don&#039 ; t have a housekeeper or maid to do--we used to hire one, but we don&#039 ; t because we do it ourselves. It&#039 ; s exercise anyway, right? |01:00:51| BRODY: Right. So you do it together as a family. NGUYEN: The laundry, everything-- |01:00:56| BRODY: I wanted to ask, also, about more on this question of identity since you&#039 ; re a parent, but to first ask to you, if you could identify a few words that summed up your idea of what it means to be a Vietnamese American. NGUYEN: I believe it&#039 ; s flexibility and adaptability because we encounter a lot of stuff in our life, and if you don&#039 ; t have the flexibility or adaptability--for instance, let&#039 ; s give some example that some people that they came--I mean, we&#039 ; re fortunate enough that we&#039 ; re a little bit younger, but if you come at a older age and you don&#039 ; t work hard and adapt, you don&#039 ; t feel fit in. You want to go back to Vietnam or you want to do--you don&#039 ; t turn out the way you hoped to turn out or your goal not met or something like that. But I think we adapt very well, school-wise, work-wise, and I think that&#039 ; s the thing for me--go to work. I&#039 ; m very friendly, very enjoyable, adaptable, so I think that&#039 ; s a good thing--trait for me that I think I have. |01:02:28| BRODY: Right. That flexibility. Some people have said that they feel like their experiences as a refugee have informed and made that flexibility part of their personality. Is that accurate for you? NGUYEN: Probably, yeah, because again, the refugee--that comes with the refugee because you have to. You left your mother country for freedom and opportunity. You have to. But again, also situation. For us, again, we&#039 ; re at a young age and it&#039 ; s easy for us to adapt and cope and do everything, but again--like, for instance, my brother--oh, he struggled. BRODY: Your oldest brother? NGUYEN: My second to the oldest, so he didn&#039 ; t really--I don&#039 ; t think--I think he just barely finished school. He was depressed. He don&#039 ; t fit in. And then no school, no work-- whatever. Right now, he&#039 ; s a machinist, but what I&#039 ; m saying is for a period of time, he don&#039 ; t like it. It was hard for him to adapt and fit in. BRODY: Did he experience-- NGUYEN: Language barrier and (??). |01:03:55| BRODY: (both speaking at once) Language barrier and--okay. Was there discrimination or racism that he-- NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Oh, of course. There&#039 ; s always that. At work--I think he told me the story one time that a black guy discriminate, and I think that guy probably in his twenty, maybe, still young, but it was the same thing--making weird language, &quot ; ching chang,&quot ; and other thing, but it&#039 ; s like that. They mimicked him like that. It got worse now, if you&#039 ; re getting picked on with words, but back then, that&#039 ; s all we hear, is they mimic you. Then they do the eye things--the most common thing they did, because we don&#039 ; t understand anyway. (laughs) BRODY: I&#039 ; ve heard that before. NGUYEN: We don&#039 ; t understand, so that&#039 ; s what they--but here now is a different level of prejudice and racism, because we understood it now. We understand the languages more in-depth. |01:05:01| BRODY: So you feel like it&#039 ; s worse today? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. I think it&#039 ; s worse now because you can mock my language. I don&#039 ; t understand it so good. But now, I understood you. I understood deep enough in your words. It&#039 ; s worse, I think. We struggle and we feel discriminated, but that&#039 ; s because we can&#039 ; t understand it when we were younger, but now, it&#039 ; s totally different level. BRODY: Do you personally--are feeling this today, or do you think just the community in general? NGUYEN: I think the community in general. I mean, my take on that is that we cannot get away from that--the kind of prejudice or racism. People can put on a face and say this and that, but deep down, it&#039 ; s--I wouldn&#039 ; t say it&#039 ; s a--just going back from the beginning, even food gathering age or a period of time, they separated themselves. Same people. They prejudiced and racist themselves, right? They get to a group, &quot ; You cannot touch my thing. That&#039 ; s mine for my own group.&quot ; You cannot--so, we just need to learn to live with each other. Give them some respect. If you don&#039 ; t have the respect and you-- that&#039 ; s understood, then we&#039 ; re okay. We can live with each other and be happy, and you respect me and I respect you. But that&#039 ; s how I feel. Like, all these thing going on, especially now with the social media, it&#039 ; s bad. I mean, we understood it. It&#039 ; s bad. Instead of just mocking, &quot ; Ching, chong, ching,&quot ; --who cares. You don&#039 ; t know what it means. You mock. It&#039 ; s just childish. But now, it&#039 ; s just totally different. I don&#039 ; t think our kid encounter that now, because I think what the school system does now is pretty good job on that--about outbursts like that. |01:07:24| BRODY: So you feel like the kids don&#039 ; t encounter as much of that kind of overt-- NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. I don&#039 ; t think so. Yeah. They bully in different way. Not racism. I feel like race is good, but the prejudice when it&#039 ; s there, or the racist, is worse. It&#039 ; s rare, especially with social media now. It&#039 ; s always going to be there. There&#039 ; s no denying. You can--anybody can look me straight in the eye and say, &quot ; Oh, I don&#039 ; t believe in racist,&quot ; and that. Yes, you don&#039 ; t believe in them, but it&#039 ; s there. We just have to learn to respect each other and move on. |01:08:08| BRODY: That&#039 ; s good advice, for sure. I just wanted to circle back and ask about your family--your parents. NGUYEN: Okay. So yeah, I can tell you about my parent. After we left, my father got caught and the Communists put him in prison for seven years. That&#039 ; s for wanting for escape. My sister and my mom were struggling for years ; got no money, food, and things like that. We do send home money, but we were struggle here as well, and so during that time, my brother send money home, but you can&#039 ; t send--it&#039 ; s communist. You can&#039 ; t send real money. You can send product, gifts, and I remember my brother sent home the toothpaste, they put gold in there--inside the toothpaste!--ounces or whatever--I was a kid--for them to spend. |01:09:19| BRODY: Did they get it? NGUYEN: Yes. They get some of the gift, but they getting smart. Back then, they don&#039 ; t have anything for radar, or whatever system-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) X-rays. NGUYEN: --X-ray system, yeah, to scan. But later on, you can&#039 ; t. But during the eighties they can, so they send home--got gold to spend, but my father was in jail for seven years, and when he got out, he was really sick. They don&#039 ; t have enough to eat. When they say they put you in jail, they mean put you in jail. Not the jail here that people give thing or take things for granted. You don&#039 ; t get to TV, read, or get--have the degree. You messed up, you pay for it. None of this human right. So he got punished real bad. When he came out, he had to go operate on his intestine because he&#039 ; d eaten bad, contaminated food because there wasn&#039 ; t enough food, so I think that&#039 ; s the problem that cost his life short. He passed away when he was seventy-something. But anyway, he got a operation. Took, like, three-quarters of his intestine away, and when he--then he got colon cancer afterward. That&#039 ; s why he passed away shorter, but I think that&#039 ; s contribute to his problem, because of the jail time. That&#039 ; s seven years. BRODY: That&#039 ; s a long time. NGUYEN: Long time. And my mom and my six sister--during that time, we had two came over--sent over on the boat. And so two of my sister came afterward, like, in ninety--&#039 ; 88 and &#039 ; 92. And then recently, we have another sister came over four years ago, so we have total of seven of us. BRODY: Seven of you here, out of the ten. NGUYEN: Right. Ten. And then, three over there, but my oldest sister--she just passed away a few years ago. She suffered cancer too. BRODY: Oh. I&#039 ; m so sorry. NGUYEN: But, yes. Two of them left there, and then my parents passed away too. BRODY: So the seven of you who are here are all in Dallas? NGUYEN: Yeah, most of them. My oldest one in California. He&#039 ; s the one who do the construction and architecture and building. He would--he&#039 ; s doing very well. Very, very well. He&#039 ; s in Huntington Beach now. He buy land, and then he build houses and sell it, and California&#039 ; s doing very well in housing. BRODY: Yeah. There&#039 ; s a lot of people. (laughs) NGUYEN: For the price. (laughs) |01:12:24| BRODY: That&#039 ; s it. Yes. The market is good there. So the last sort of area--we&#039 ; ve kind of touch on it a little bit, but it&#039 ; s more on this question of identity. To you what does it mean to be American? You mentioned you achieved your citizenship, so tell me about what it meant to you to get American citizenship. NGUYEN: I--to be honest, I really didn&#039 ; t think about that. To be, like--you know how some people, &quot ; Oh, yes!&quot ; ? We&#039 ; re not like that. In fact, my wife and I went the same time. We went and got naturalized the same time. We got the same--but again, it wasn&#039 ; t a big deal for us. I guess we were young, so we became naturalized in eighty--&#039 ; 90, or something like that. Yeah. Ninety--I forgot, but long time ago. But for us, we weren&#039 ; t like older people that dreamed to be an American immigrant, excited about. It&#039 ; s just something that we needed to have or get, but it&#039 ; s no problem for us. We&#039 ; re younger. We passed it with flying color. So yeah, as far as that, I didn&#039 ; t remember that, &quot ; Yes, I&#039 ; m a US citizen now.&quot ; |01:13:54| BRODY: So after--it&#039 ; s been a while since that happened and you became an American citizen, but what does it--reflecting back, what does it mean to you now to say, &quot ; I&#039 ; m an American&quot ; ? NGUYEN: I think American citizens should be proud to be a American citizen, and I&#039 ; ll tell you why--because if you travel a lot and you go to different country and you experience stuff--experience life, experience with the people that you touches--you don&#039 ; t know nowhere else you would rather want to be but here because, yes, we have our bads and good, but the freedom is outrageous here. I mean, look at that. Where else you go in the world that the president mess up something, you cuss and you mock him, and you do something? You got your freedom of speech! Nowhere else. Even some of the democratic country--some of them, you can&#039 ; t do that. Like Taiwan, you can&#039 ; t really say, but they&#039 ; re democratic, right? Some of them. So we&#039 ; ve been living in Hong Kong, Thailand, and we experienced all that. We&#039 ; ve experience culture. We experience the economic, the food, the infrastructure, road--nothing compare to the US. You&#039 ; ve got so much opportunity, so at the time when I was natural, I don&#039 ; t feel like that. But now, you--I&#039 ; m so proud because you go everywhere, you cannot have the same experience. It&#039 ; s just amazing. You go to France or Europe--we haven&#039 ; t been there. That&#039 ; s our bucket list. But from what my father-in-law--nothing. Traffic, nowhere to have the car, the freedom to do anything--it&#039 ; s all great. Very good. We&#039 ; re lucky to be here. |01:16:14| BRODY: So back to that blended identity that you have ; what does it mean for you to be Vietnamese American? NGUYEN: Very proud. We have the heritage. We have the Vietnamese heritage, food-- food is the best. When you get older, that&#039 ; s all you think. (both laugh) It&#039 ; s good. I feel that&#039 ; s the best part is to be Vietnamese American, is that we live in this world of freedom and a melting pot of diversity. You can&#039 ; t go anywhere and have the diversity that we have. I mean, now, we&#039 ; re going backward. Look at Donald Trump about all this immigration things that he do, and you think back and you say, &quot ; This country was built on immigration.&quot ; This part is not all American. It belonged to American Indians, then we came and we conquer, and we are American. But that, because of the immigrant, create all this diversity. You name the food, you go out there and you get it. Vietnamese food is more(??) because of (??) one of the best one, but yeah. I&#039 ; m so proud to be an American--Vietnamese American because to be here and to have that heritage is great. |01:17:56| BRODY: So a hundred years from now when you&#039 ; re great-great-great-great-great- grandchildren might listen to this interview or read the transcript, or future scholars, is there anything that we haven&#039 ; t talked about today yet that you think should be included or you think that they should know? NGUYEN: Don&#039 ; t forget your heritage. Don&#039 ; t forget your heritage. Open mind. Experience your heritage. Experience your Vietnamese culture as well. That&#039 ; s the best thing that I want my kid to experience. We go back a whole lot to Vietnam, and they like it. I think my oldest son--he speak better Vietnamese when we went over there. We come back and know he get it. He can write too. So he&#039 ; s just also the talented kid, but at least give it a chance and don&#039 ; t forget your heritage. Give it a chance, because you see some kid that doesn&#039 ; t have that. I&#039 ; ll give you example. There&#039 ; s a little kid, eleven, twelve years old. He&#039 ; s Filipino and he think he&#039 ; s white, and he&#039 ; s making fun of--&quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re a ching-chong, right?&quot ; So it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Yes. You&#039 ; re also Asian though!&quot ; (laughs) So I don&#039 ; t want the kid to have that. Know where you&#039 ; re from. |01:19:33| BRODY: That&#039 ; s beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and for your story. It was wonderful to hear, and I&#039 ; m very honored to be able to record it for this collection, so thank you very much. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I mean, at this time, I have a little bit more that comes up, but--yeah. No problem. BRODY: Okay. Thank you so much. NGUYEN: Okay. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh011_btba_011.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Chad Nguyen Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh011_btba_011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/1b3ff333d32533b834897e85cd90e3ac.jpg 60c1cdea491c4fc4723b2174f976cdfe Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tina Nguyen OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Tina Nguyen, June 1, 2019 2019oh010_btba_010 59:53 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Tina Nguyen Betsy Brody mp3 1:|27(14)|36(4)|49(3)|56(5)|63(14)|81(7)|96(9)|103(12)|116(6)|123(2)|130(3)|141(3)|160(3)|172(10)|185(9)|198(2)|206(13)|215(10)|226(1)|243(2)|264(7)|276(4)|287(8)|305(1)|326(15)|335(1)|353(1)|363(5)|373(12)|387(1)|396(10)|404(6)|414(10)|432(10)|451(4)|464(5)|480(12)|491(7)|502(10)|514(9)|528(12)|542(7)|555(1)|563(5)|575(12)|584(9)|597(3)|606(8)|624(2)|640(12)|649(14)|670(1)|681(8)|695(2)|709(10)|726(8)|738(14)|753(5)|768(10) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117363 Aviary audio 1 Interview Introduction BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 1, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Ms. Tina Nguyen. This interview is taking place at Ms. Nguyen’s house in Murphy, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the “Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans” project. Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans 21 Leaving Vietnam as a child/Impact of Chinese heritage Thank you so much, Tina, for joining me for this interview. Just to get started, can you tell me about your life in Vietnam? NGUYEN: Sure. I left Vietnam when I was about nine years old with a family group of twenty. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. That’s a large group. NGUYEN: Yeah. So it’s with my grandparents, and they were Chinese and half- Vietnamese. There were twenty of them, so it’s everybody on my dad’s side of the family. My grandparents and all their kids and their wives and their kids came along. So that means my mom—she left her whole family behind—so, like, her mother, her sisters, and brothers were behind. She came with us, and she was at the age of twenty-nine when she left. Because the family was so large, when we got to America, we split up ten and ten due to sponsorship. There’s no one—no organization or church—that was able to sponsor a full twenty, so they could do, like, a ten-ten, so ten went to California, and ten went to Mississippi. But my story is, because I was half-Chinese or half-Vietnamese, it wasn’t like I left secretly by a boat or something. My grandparents, because of their nationality, Chinese, and they were a little bit well off, they were able to pay, I guess, for our way to come to American by gold. I heard, like, a bar of gold for—I don’t even know how much per person, or whatever. BRODY: Who were they paying to? NGUYEN: I guess it’s just the association? I’m not sure because I was very young. But it’s just, basically, you pay your way for a chance at freedom, not knowing. We did come by boat, but it wasn’t like a secret way where we had to sneak out in the middle of the night. We had a designated date, a time to say goodbye to family, et cetera, and then the next morning, people were—I remember waving to my maternal grandmother side of the family and all that. So we went on a boat. I want to say about 180 people were on this small boat, and just based on what I remembered, it was very crowded and what was brought on the boat for food was ramen noodles. I remember just eating ramen noodles from a canister. And I think after, maybe, three or four days—my timing could be way off. I don’t know, because I was so young—I think we landed in Indonesia. I think the city was called Galang and we stayed there for about nine months. They set up a camp, I guess—a refugee camp, and from what I remembered, it was more like a large cabin that would house about, maybe, twenty or thirty people in each cabin, and there’s several cabins. And in the cabin, you basically—for each family, there’s a big, large platform like a bed or something, so probably the size of a ten-by-ten or something, and that’s basically your house. So we would have a roof over our head with that platform with just that wooden board, and then for food and stuff, I think you—we had to go get water. I remember going and they have water that is allocated out. You can’t just get what you want. Each family have a certain amount, and you have to line up to get the water. The same thing with food ; they have allocated amount of sardines in a can, so I remember eating sardines with rice in a can, like, every single day. That was what we—that was just your allocated amount. We were there, and then once we were settled, then my mom got a job with the Indonesian people who had restaurants, and she was also a seamstress, so she was able to work for some small mom-and-pop shop to make clothes and— BRODY: There in Indonesia still? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. boat ; food ; Galang ; gold ; Indonesia ; leaving Vietnam ; refugee camps ; Vietnamese-Chinese 346 Being sent to work for an Indonesian family at nine years old BRODY: Okay. So as part of the camp, there was a business stream as well? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. So—no. The weird thing is, I think, from what I remember—so the camp is on one side, and then I remember you have to travel by a small boat just to get to the other side of the island, I think, but—so the other side is more industrialized, whereas where we stayed—I mean, there weren’t any buildings. There weren’t any kind of businesses. It was just the refugee camp. And then, you take a little boat ride across—that’s probably, like, thirty minutes, forty minutes or something, and it’s just like a totally different world with businesses, restaurants, and stuff, whereas where we stayed didn’t have any of that. Right. There were no restaurants. BRODY: (both speaking at once) No—okay. Just living spaces. NGUYEN: Exactly. Yep. And by way of making money, I think my mom or my dad somehow was talking to an Indonesian family, and somehow they came up with an opportunity for me, at the age of nine, to kind of live with this family that owns a restaurant, and I would help around the house or around the restaurant by washing dishes or something. It was those—it was just a combination of both. It’s just a little amount of money or whatever the child can bring in at the time, and then more importantly, just an opportunity to blend in and make way of life for myself and then for the family as well. I think that probably occurred for nine months or so. And I remember at one point, they had—this family with a restaurant—they had sons of, like, fifteen, sixteen years old, and when it was time for us to get sponsored to go to Mississippi—Houston, Mississippi—I remember the story was, they offered my parent to see if they would be willing to let me stay and marry one of their sons! (laughs) BRODY: Oh my goodness! (laughs) You were nine years old! NGUYEN: I know! (laughs) Yes. Of course, my mom said no, (both laugh) thank you. Well, no, we never took that opportunity. businesses ; children ; employment ; Indonesia ; jobs ; refugee camps ; refugees ; restaurants 513 Sponsorship and arrival in the United States NGUYEN: Then after nine months to a year in Indonesia, then we were sponsored. Like I said earlier, ten of us were sponsored in Houston or Jackson, Mississippi, by a church group. That was my grandparents, my dad, my two younger sisters, and my mom, so we, immediately, has a family of five, and then, my grandparent had one, two, three, four aunts, right? Four aunts. And—yeah, maybe three aunts, and then my grandparents—I know that the total, including the five of us, was ten. And then the rest of the family, which includes my oldest aunt and my uncle, went to Los Angeles, California, so they were sponsored by another organization. And so we lived in Mississippi for about a year or so, and I remembered they sponsored and gave us a house that would—that was big enough for all ten of us in there. By way of occupation, I remember my parents having to do lawn work, and I remember back then, it was huge just to make—I want to say—is it three dollar an hour, or maybe—yeah, maybe three dollar an hour? But they were doing kind of lawn care work, and we kind of blend in and go to church, and we stayed there for about a year. Then my mom found out she has an aunt that lives in Plano, Texas, so then she got into contact with her aunt, which is now my great-aunt, and they helped us—or sponsored us to come and live in Plano. So we made the drive—it was, like, thirteen hour drive from Mississippi to Plano—with my dad, and then we just got situated in Plano and lived there for a couple years. BRODY: Did you live with your aunt? NGUYEN: Yes. We lived with my aunt for—or my great-aunt, rather, for about a year or so, and then she got jobs for my mom and my dad, which was to be a cook, like, at a Denny’s or something. Once my parents got jobs, then we moved into an apartment. So they—we kind of got situated and lived on our own after that. church ; employment ; housing ; Housto ; Jackson, Mississippi ; jobs ; Los Angeles ; Mississippi ; Plano ; sponsors ; sponsorship ; Texas ; United State 715 Parents' status and work in Vietnam BRODY: What did your parents do in terms of work in Vietnam? NGUYEN: My dad, because of his heritage—his being half-Chinese—and my Chinese grandparents on the paternal side were well-off. They had a business and it was a shoe shop. And my mom was more on the—kind of like, my mom’s side was more on the poor side, so she was more on the farming side. I remembered them going to sell stacked up loads of bananas on a boat and leaving in the middle of the night—yeah, collecting all the bananas and selling them. BRODY: So really different than what they ended up doing when they got here. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Yeah. Do you remember what that transition was like for them, to go from what they had been doing both in Vietnam, and then later in Mississippi, to working as cooks? NGUYEN: It was probably very difficult because, number one, they knew that they were leaving for freedom, better life for the kids, but basically, it was just the unknown because when we left, there was no guarantee that, Okay, yes, you’re going to be sponsored, you’re going to make it to America. It was just, You’re going to some island, may it be Indonesia, or Thailand, or Malaysia,—I don’t know, I’m not sure—but then from there, that’s where you’re hoping that you get sponsorships. So when they left, I don’t think they have an idea as to, Okay, I’m going to go to Texas or California. That just kind of like, We’ll see what happens when we get there. So when they got here, not knowing a word of English and not having a skill because they were young—so it was basically starting fresh in a new country, learning a new language, getting a new skill, so I would imagine that was very difficult. bananas ; Chinese ; English ; farming ; freedom ; language ; language learning ; poverty ; social class ; wealth 860 Role of churches and religion BRODY: Right. I would imagine. You mentioned about the sponsorships, that you were initially sponsored by a church. What role—did religion play a role in your family’s story in your integration or later on in your life? NGUYEN: No. I think the church was just to help us out, but it wasn’t like we were like, Okay, we’re Christian, or we’re Baptist, and therefore that we were selected because of that. I think they selected us knowing that we weren’t religious yet and all that. It was more of a—I want to say, like a—what is that term? Montessori? Yeah. Kind of like one of those organizations that’s just, Okay, we just want to help people out, and then giving them a chance to develop their own lives. church ; religion 916 Attending school in Mississippi and Texas BRODY: Okay. Let’s see. You were quite young, so you must’ve been in school, both in Mississippi and then in Texas. Can you tell me what you remember about being in school? NGUYEN: Yes. So obviously, I started out in elementary and not knowing any English. I remembered going to a school in Mississippi, and I thought it was just odd. For some reason, I have this memory of a milk carton. During recess, they gave out milk carton or something—this is way back then—and coming from Vietnam, we don’t drink milk. There’s no cows. Vietnam is just not a dairy country. So I remember not coping very well with that because I couldn’t drink milk, and I remember just being, I guess, frustrated because not knowing the language, not knowing how to communicate. And then in Vietnam, it wasn’t as structured like in the US. Like, for example, when I left, I want to say that I was already—even though at nine, I was in the fifth or sixth grade because, basically, in Vietnam or where I was, if you master a certain skill or whatever is required, you get to skip the class and you move on to the next class. I was higher than most kids my age, and then I remember going to Mississippi and start in the first grade, and I think my dad—even though it’s a different country, he was thinking it worked similarly in Vietnam. So somehow, he was talking to, I guess, a teacher or a principal or a translator, and he was asking to see if I could skip as well, (both laugh) and I think they were—they didn’t go for it at first, but because of—like, my math was more advanced. I was already doing multiplication and all that, and so they did let me skip second and I went to third, I think. Something like—I know I was able to skip one grade. Then we moved to Plano and I remember, once we got to live with my great-aunt, it was just—the opportunities that was kind of presented to me from my aunt was, “Oh, you’re going to have so much homework and you’re going to be carrying bunch of books,” and all that, which is—I know it sounds ironic, but it was like it was a good thing. It was just like an award to have that opportunity to do homework and carry a stacks of book this tall, because the way she was saying it, it wasn’t like, “Oh,” to scare you, but it was more of, “Oh, you’re not going to believe it. This is your opportunity.” For us, it was like—for education, it was really important. In Vietnam—I didn’t tell you this, but—only the rich or the well- off could afford education, but if you live on a farm or something, then you—I mean, school is not easily accessible, so you would have to walk for miles to go to school. I think in Vietnam, I remember having to walk through the farm, and trees, and forest, and all that to go to the school, so just the thought of hearing about, “Oh, yeah, you’ll be carrying stacks of books,” and all that, it was very rewarded—very welcoming. Like, “Oh my gosh! Really?” It was a gift. BRODY: Right. That didn’t scare you at all. NGUYEN: Yeah! Yeah. No. Uh-huh. BRODY: Once you did get to school, was there a lot of homework and a lot of books? NGUYEN: I think because I was in the oldest in my family of three girls, I’ve always been more mature than my sisters, and maybe because I was the oldest, I’ve always— from elementary through junior high, through high school and college, I was very independent and very education-focused. I always wanted to make sure I’m the head of the class, getting straight As. So it was more of—no one made me. I just kind of took that on by myself. communication ; dairy ; education ; elementary school ; English ; food ; homework ; language ; math ; milk ; milk cartons ; Mississippi ; opportunities ; schools ; social class ; studying ; success ; Texas 1260 Moving from Plano to Houston and back to North Texas BRODY: Did you stay in Plano for long? NGUYEN: Yes. I think we stayed for about two or three years, and then we moved to Houston. That was probably in 1984 or ’85. Then my grandparents, who—so when we left, it was just my immediate family—my dad and my two younger sisters and my mom—and then my grandparents—later on, they had other connections, and my aunt and my grandparents moved to Houston. So then, after living in Plano for two or three years, my grandparents were like, Okay, hey, there’s some opportunities here in Houston with a lot more Asian community, et cetera, so they told us—or they told my parents, “That, maybe, is a better opportunity for jobs and all that, if you guys want to come check out Houston.” Then we moved to Houston in ’84 or ’85, and I think we lived there for a few years. Yeah, two or three years. |00:22:19| BRODY: Yeah. And then you came back? Or— NGUYEN: Yes. Unfortunately, in Houston for two or three years, my parents got a divorce, and then—so my mom left with just us girls, went back to Plano, and then hooked up with her aunt again, the one—yeah. So then we lived in Plano here—I want to say, probably, in 1986 until I graduated high school in ’91. BRODY: And so you went to Plano schools, or— NGUYEN: I went—no. In Richardson. I went to Richardson High School. Um-hm. divorce ; Houston ; Plano ; Texas 1393 Attending high school in Richardson, Texas BRODY: Right. At that point when you came back, were there more Vietnamese students, or still pretty limited? NGUYEN: I think so, yes, because I think when I came back here, that’s where I met Dai, so it was a lot more—there were, I want to say—yeah. I know of at least three or probably five—at least five Vietnamese friends that were in my class, and then probably more a year ahead of me. And that’s where I met my husband, too, in Richardson High School. BRODY: Right. So there was a growing community, it sounds like. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: I mean, did you have friends that were—did you mostly stick with the Vietnamese students, or did you have friends of all different races and ethnicities? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) We had friends of all different—yeah. There were— most—yeah. Several of my friends were Vietnamese, but it wasn’t like, Okay, I only hung around the Vietnamese group or something. diversity ; friendships ; high school ; Richardson ; Richardson, Texas ; Vietnamese students 1454 Cultural misunderstanding at sleep-away camp BRODY: Right. And so socially and academically, what do you remember about—were there any challenges or funny things that happened? NGUYEN: Yeah. Academically, I did very well. I think since second grade, I made straight As through high school, through college, et cetera. But there was one instance, for whatever reason, I remembered. It was camp—summer camp. Maybe that was, like, in the fifth grade, when—like my kids now—you get a chance to go off and—it wasn’t in the summer ; it was during the school year—but you get a chance to go off for two or three days with the other students. And there’s one story I remembered. In our country— this is kind of funny—but what I remembered, clothing-wise, we didn’t have specific clothing set for, like, pajamas ; certain things are for school or for summer and all that. I guess we were just lucky if you had clothes on your back, you know, so to me, at that young age, anything with a collar, I would remember it being, Okay, that’s dressy enough. So I remember one time during that summer camp—or school camp trip—I wore what’s considered to be a pajama set, but it had a collar, and for Vietnam, pajamas—if you have a collar, that’s too fancy! (Brody laughs) It can’t be pajamas! And so I never thought of it as being pajamas. I remember it being pink, but I didn’t wear the whole outfit. It was just the shirt and I’d wear a pant. But I remember wearing it, and then some kid made fun. It was like, “She’s wearing pajamas!” And so then it dawned on me that, Oh, okay, there is a difference. Just because it has collar doesn’t mean that it’s normal, regular, everyday clothes. BRODY: Right. So it was a cultural lesson. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yes! (laughs) So yeah, that’s kind of stuck with me somehow. clothing ; culture ; misunderstanding ; sleep-away camp ; teasing 1599 Learning English BRODY: How was your English learning process? Was it—what do you remember about that? NGUYEN: I think it was—I mean, when you were young, I think the younger you are, the easier it is, right? If you start—if you come here later in life, the language, the learning, the speaking of it, the pronunciation of it is harder because you have your way of pronouncing. Let’s say, if Vietnamese was your primary language, chances are you’re going to have an accent when you learn to speak English, but if you’re younger, then you become more fluent easier, so I didn’t have a hard time. I probably did at the very beginning. I’m sure I did, but it was—because I was too young to remember. I mean, I remember it wasn’t so hard that it created something that’s not—bad memories or anything like that. English ; English language ; language learning ; learning English 1670 Nguyen's mother's experiences adapting and working in the United States How about your mom? How was her language—her process? NGUYEN: My mom—for her, I think she missed out a lot because, even though she left when she was twenty-nine, and so that’s still young, right? Because when she got here, that’s probably around the same age when I finished college and got situated, got married, and had my firstborn, so I could imagine it was more difficult for my mom because she didn’t have an opportunity for education. As soon as we got here, it was just more of, okay, what can she do to provide for her family? So it was just—she went straight to the job market and trying to make a living for the family. I think she—so she worked as a cook for a country club, actually, in Richardson—the Richardson Canyon Creek Country Club—for, probably, about—at least ten years—ten, fifteen years. And then to make ends meet, she also—because her background, she knows how to sew, she’s a seamstress—she would sew as her other job. So she—until I was going to college, she probably had two jobs for at least ten, fifteen years. BRODY: Oh. As a single mom as well, that must’ve been a challenge. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Well, by then, she got remarried, so I have a stepdad. But still, she is probably one of the hardest, hardest working mom I know. cooking ; education ; employment ; food ; jobs ; seamstress ; sewing 1791 Living in Buckner Children's Home Did you stay—it sounds like you moved from Plano to Richardson. Did you—what was the housing situation? Did you move into a different apartment? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Okay. Yes. After my parents got divorced and we left Houston to move back to Plano and she reconnected with my great aunt, right? Being a single mom with three girls—by then I was in the seventh grade, and then my sister would be in the sixth grade, and then my youngest would’ve been, like, first grade or something—she didn’t have, I guess, enough or couldn’t provide enough for us, being a single mom. So there, my great-aunt said that there was an organization where they would help with the kids, but you would have to have the kids go stay in a children’s home—like a dorm or something. And so three of us—my two sisters and myself—we went and lived in Buckner Children’s Home. That’s off of—that’s on Buckner [Boulevard]. I remember it was extremely, extremely hard on my mom because she felt like, okay, she couldn’t take care of us, but my aunt convinced her that, “Okay, this is not long term. It could be just three months, it could be six months, just so you can get on your foot. And then once you have an apartment, get a job, or something, then you’ll get them back. But it’s hard for you to go to work, and then, the kids being so young, who’s going to watch them? Who’s going to take them to school, et cetera?” So she convinced my mom that this is probably the best opportunity for us kids. I think my mom agreed to it, and so my sisters and I went there, and my other two sisters stayed for a week. They couldn’t handle it. They were like, No. They didn’t want it. I think especially for my youngest sister, it was just hard because they grouped you by age so we couldn’t stay together. So the thought—my mom was like, the thought of my youngest sister—she’s five years younger than me, so I was in the seventh grade, she would be in, like, first or second grade, right? At that age, she’s like, “I can’t imagine her being by herself.” Even though we’d get to see her every day, we still can’t sleep with her and all that. So then my two sisters wanted to go home. Being the older one, I was like, “I think I could handle this and help my mom out,” and so I stayed and I lived in Buckner until, probably, about—almost three years ; sixth, seventh, eighth grade. I think I left in eighth grade. BRODY: Did they—what was the name of the organization that—do you remember? NGUYEN: Yeah. It was called Buckner Children’s Home. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Oh, that was—okay, so that was just who was running it. And then did they take to you school every day? NGUYEN: Yeah. So basically it is a—it’s almost like a little campus with, like, fifteen different dorms. There’s a girls’ dorm. There’s a boys’ dorm. There’s a big cafeteria. It’s almost like the little world. They have a church. And then in the morning, they’ll have a bus that would take us to the public school, and then they’ll bring us back home. They have a rec center, et cetera, so— BRODY: Do they take you to the school that you’re zoned for in your neighborhood where your mom was living? NGUYEN: Yeah. My mom was living—no. She could come and see me on the weekend, but my mom was going back to live with my aunt to help make a living. But then on the weekend, my mom would come visit me. BRODY: Okay. So your sisters went home, and then your mom could see them daily, but you were sticking it out in the children’s home. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think I just—I liked the structure of—because for whatever reason—I don’t know if it’s because when I left, I know the importance of education more than my younger sisters, so I appreciated it a lot more and I liked the structure of, “Okay, okay. This is what you do. From certain time, you go to school.” I actually was the one that volunteered, told my mom that I think I can give it a try and see how I’ll do. Yeah, so I stayed there about three years. BRODY: Did you develop a lot of friendships there? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. You basically live there in a dorm. It’s a two-story dorm, and you have what’s called a “house parent.” They’re kind of like your parents that would take care of you twenty-four seven. They’ll—on a daily basis, you get to make your phone calls to your family and all that. They—I lived with them and they became kind of like my parents. They’re my American parents. In fact, after I left, and even when I went to—years later—five, ten years later, going to high school and college, I would always go back to see them until they passed. They both passed. BRODY: Was it a religiously run group? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. It was run by a church. It was a Baptist church, and you would go to church every Wednesday and Sunday. BRODY: Were the other kids from all different backgrounds? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. There were, like, three other Vietnamese. It was just basically the same situation. It was more of, your parents are in trouble, or they don’t—they can’t afford, or let’s say, their parents—I don’t know—do drugs or something. It’s just a better place for the child. I guess it’s a better option than foster because you’re not living with a family. You’re living with other people a similar age, similar situation, and you’re being housed by a couple—a grandparent that actually live on that campus. Baptist ; Baptist Church ; Buckner Children's Home ; education ; housing ; orphanage ; refugees ; school https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/buckner-baptist-childrens-home Handbook of Texas entry for Buckner Children's Home 2255 Vietnamese identity and American identity BRODY: Yeah. That’s interesting. I’m thinking about your—how you think of yourself, then. You had a variety of different experiences, both because of the age that you were when you came, being so young, and then living in different parts of the country and different parts of Texas as well. When you think about your own identity, how do you see yourself? Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? American? NGUYEN: I think—I feel like I’m very fortunate to have the lives of two worlds, because that’s one thing I feel really bad for my kids, because they only know this world here. I mean, yes, we took them back to Vietnam, but they don’t have the same appreciation, the same feeling or thoughts about Vietnam culture unless you really live it. So I feel like—I mean, even food and stuff, the authentic food and stuff—they don’t eat it or they don’t enjoy it like I do, so I feel like it’s more of a loss for them. I feel very privileged and fortunate to be a Vietnamese, but still have the opportunity that I have living in America. BRODY: It is—yeah, that’s true, that you’ve got two different cultures that you’re able to enjoy. NGUYEN: Yeah. But my kids, even though I try to explain it to them, I don’t think they—they will never grasp it. They’re like, Oh, no, I’m good. You know? (Brody laughs) Yeah. We don’t have the freedom, the luxury that they have now with video games and all that. But if I were to think back of what I had, just playing with chopsticks and balls, but just—I feel like my life is like a chapter—a book, right? I feel like it’s a lot more interesting, because I have all of these—than somebody like my kids, who just have just their version of it. Yeah. I know it sounds hard and probably bad, but to them, they’re okay. They’re like, Oh, no, I’m great. American identity ; culture ; food ; identity ; Vietnamese identity 2413 Generational differences in identity BRODY: Would you say you would think of your kids as American? And what does that mean? NGUYEN: I think they’re more Americanized than the traditional Vietnamese. Like, they’re a different generation than, let’s say, me and my husband. So even though we encourage them—in fact, when they were younger, it’s much easier when they were younger than now—to speak Vietnamese in the home because I want them, number one, to know their roots ; two, whenever you have more than one language, it’s so much better for you. So we basically either take them to a temple so they can continue to learn the Vietnamese language or force them to speak when they’re in the home—the Vietnamese. We’re like, Okay, when you’re at school, feel free, but once you get home, I don’t want you to talk English to grandma, grandpa, or me or dad. That was easier before they go to school. Then once they start being more fluent in school and with friends, we still have to remind them. I think now, my kids, even though they don’t speak it—or they—my oldest one does. He’s really good. He can actually read and write, but my youngest one, Maddison—she doesn’t speak it very well, but she understand everything. (both laugh) BRODY: Should be careful what you say. (laughs) NGUYEN: Right. Right. Yeah. She understands when I speak to her. In our family, we probably do both. In our family, we probably do both. We’ll combine English and Vietnamese all in one sentence. (laughs) Amerianized ; American identity ; culture ; language ; language learning ; Vietnamese identity ; Vietnamese language 2526 Meeting and marrying her high school sweetheart/Going to college at UNT and Texas A &amp ; M BRODY: You mentioned going back to Vietnam and taking the kids. What was that like, and what— NGUYEN: Oh, okay. My first trip to Vietnam was before the kids. Actually, my husband went first. So, I mentioned I met my husband in ’89, so we’re high school sweethearts. weeks after graduation was our wedding day. We planned our wedding—because the other thing about our culture that I’m really proud of—and even though I don’t have that same expectation as the current generation—my parents were extremely strict, and especially since my mom has three girls. Later on, my mom remarried, and so I have a stepdad who is still living near us here—but they were really strict, and they don’t believe in dating. There was no such thing as, Okay, you’re going to a movie, or a boyfriend kind of deal, so the only time my husband, now, got to see me, even when he was a senior and I was a junior, was him coming over to have dinner at our house. BRODY: With the family. NGUYEN: With the family, yes. So it was huge for me to go off to college. My mom always knew that I was very focused on education, so she was not going to be the person that’s stand in my way, so choosing the location of the school or all that was all me than my parents. And so my parents, being very strict—so they didn’t—they don’t believe in sex before marriage. (laughs) So even after we graduate high school, I remember my stepdad, now, have the “birds and the bees” talk with my husband, now, who was my boyfriend back then, and made him a promise that he—to keep me pure until we get married. And so we—two weeks after—so we planned our wedding that last semester, and I think probably the biggest accomplishment he and I ever done was basically— because his situation is similar to mine, but his is a little bit more difficult because he doesn’t have parents here. His parents were in Vietnam, so he kind of raised himself. He came here with his sister and his brothers, so he kind of raised himself—buying his own He’s a year ahead of me. He graduated in ’90, I graduated in ’91. And then he—even though we were young, I guess we’re a lot more mature than our kids at my age back then, so we knew that—or he knew that he wanted to marry me and that we would have our life together, so he waited a year until I graduated. He went to UNT [University of North Texas] for me to graduate, and then we both went to Texas A&amp ; M afterwards. And then, we graduated from A&amp ; M in ’95 at the same time, and I remember literally two weeks after graduation was our wedding day. We planned our wedding—because the other thing about our culture that I’m really proud of—and even though I don’t have that same expectation as the current generation—my parents were extremely strict, and especially since my mom has three girls. Later on, my mom remarried, and so I have a stepdad who is still living near us here—but they were really strict, and they don’t believe in dating. There was no such thing as, Okay, you’re going to a movie, or a boyfriend kind of deal, so the only time my husband, now, got to see me, even when he was a senior and I was a junior, was him coming over to have dinner at our house. BRODY: With the family. NGUYEN: With the family, yes. So it was huge for me to go off to college. My mom always knew that I was very focused on education, so she was not going to be the person that’s stand in my way, so choosing the location of the school or all that was all me than my parents. And so my parents, being very strict—so they didn’t—they don’t believe in sex before marriage. (laughs) So even after we graduate high school, I remember my stepdad, now, have the “birds and the bees” talk with my husband, now, who was my boyfriend back then, and made him a promise that he—to keep me pure until we get married. And so we—two weeks after—so we planned our wedding that last semester, and I think probably the biggest accomplishment he and I ever done was basically— because his situation is similar to mine, but his is a little bit more difficult because he doesn’t have parents here. His parents were in Vietnam, so he kind of raised himself. He came here with his sister and his brothers, so he kind of raised himself—buying his own car, going to his own sport events at school and all that, or paying for his own insurance. Even when we were in high school, he was working at 7-Eleven on the weekend just for cash so he can pay for insurance for his car, gas, and all that. And even at that age, for Richardson High School, he was paying for my lunch every day, so he was already kind of taking care of me. So we went to college together and, sure enough, he kept his promise. (laughs) So we—I live in my own apartment with my roommates, he has his roommates, and we got married two weeks after graduation, and, yes, in the traditional Vietnamese ceremony. college ; culture ; dating ; high school ; marriage ; parenting ; Vietnamese culture ; wedding 2807 Traditional Vietnamese wedding ceremony BRODY: What was that ceremony like? NGUYEN: The traditional Vietnamese is very—it’s a long thing. It’s not just, you go to church for the ceremony, that’s it. It’s like—well, first, there’s an engagement ceremony. For our culture, you only—not only are you marrying each other, you’re marrying the family, so the family is very involved. So even with the engagement, you have a ceremony where the groom’s side comes over to the bride’s side to request for a hand in marriage, and they bring gifts and all that. And then a year later, we got married. It’s same thing there. They basically—everybody from the groom’s side drive over, present gifts. We have our own ceremony, either at home or at the temple, pay your respect to your ancestors, and then you exchange your vows there, et cetera. And then, at night’s when they have the reception for all the guest. BRODY: The party, right? NGUYEN: Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Did you have a big party? NGUYEN: Yeah! (laughs) When—because we got married to weeks after graduation, we didn’t have our jobs yet, so I would say that probably the biggest accomplishment both of us did was we paid for our college ourself, because our parents weren’t well off. We paid for the wedding ourself—well, with the help of some student loans, towards the end. (laughs) In fact, that last semester, Chad borrowed a student loan to buy the ring! (laughs) Yeah. And I was also very fortunate. Even when I was in high school, I was applying scholarships everywhere, so I paid for myself through college by way of scholarships. But I think that’s probably our biggest accomplishment is, like, we got—we kind of set everything up for ourselves for what we have. ceremony ; college ; engagement ; families ; family ; gifts ; ritual ; traditions ; Vietnamese customs ; wedding 2938 Career in accounting BRODY: That sounds like you worked really hard to do things on your terms and do things the way you wanted to. That’s impressive. Your story is really interesting because you’ve gone through so many different things and seen so many different types of people. Along the way, did you ever have any experience with what you perceived to be discrimination or racism? Was that something that you encountered? NGUYEN: Fortunately, I haven’t encountered anything major, but maybe some in the work place, but being— BRODY: Where do you work? What type of work do you do? NGUYEN: I have a degree in accounting from A&amp ; M, and my husband has an electrical engineering. My first job after I left A&amp ; M, we moved to Houston. He had a job at Compaq Computer, which is now HP [Hewlett Packard], and because of my always ambitious—I always wanted to work for the best of the best, and so my first job out of college—and this is way before all this happened, but I don’t know if you know, but—so my first job was with Enron, (laughs) which was before all this happened. In fact, when I worked for them for three years and until I had my baby in ’99, and that’s when we literally dropped everything and we moved back home to Dallas. And then, 2001 or whenever, that’s when the Enron collapsed and all that. In fact, I let—it was just like the Titanic sank. No one knew. I mean, I even left the majority of my 401k in the Enron fund and probably lost all of it. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: So no, it was horrible, but I was fortunate in that there were people I knew that were close to retiring that lost, like, half a million dollars—everything. BRODY: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. NGUYEN: Yeah. It was just—yeah. It was just so crazy when I heard all that happen, when I was here in Dallas. accounting ; career ; discrimination ; Enron ; Houston ; racism 3086 Returning to Dallas after having first baby BRODY: Wow. So you came back to Dallas after having the baby and— NGUYEN: Yes. BRODY: What was driving that decision? NGUYEN: Okay, so I guess being—having your firstborn, it’s probably the most important thing in life. He’s like our little prince, (Brody laughs) because all of our families—even though we graduated and moved to Houston, all of my family and Chad’s family—which is his sisters and brothers—are here in Dallas. We wanted family member to take care of Sean, and we couldn’t imagine a stranger taking care of him. So as soon as he got a job transfer, we literally picked up our clothes. We left the house. We didn’t even have it sold. We took our clothes and we moved back home, here, to Dallas, just so we can have somebody take care of Sean when I found a job. In fact, I didn’t even have a job yet, but I knew that I could find a job and sure enough, I found it in a month or so, when I got here. childcare ; culture ; Dallas ; employment ; family ; Houston ; jobs 3162 Engagement with Vietnamese community Have you tried to stay in contact with or engaged with the larger Vietnamese community outside your family? NGUYEN: Here, it’s mostly more family. There are some organizations, but we’re not as active just because there’s just so—we’re so busy with our own families. Yes. I mean, yeah, after that, then I had my other two kids. It was just—I think we become more of your typical—not just Vietnamese, but just a family, a married family with kids that has sports and just kids activities and stuff. So it wasn’t like, “Okay, because I’m Vietnamese, I’m going to go to this organization, et cetera.” It was just—we’re raised and we live as if we’re a typical family. BRODY: Yeah. Do you—when you think about—though you’re not particularly involved with the Vietnamese community in general, because you’re doing family things and you’re a busy family, when you think about the Vietnamese community in North Texas, what are some words that come to mind? NGUYEN: I think there’s a lot more, I guess—a lot more Vietnamese networking or association in Houston than in Dallas. I think the way Dallas is structured is so spread out, whereas Houston, it’s more in the southwest Bellaire area, so there’s a lot more activities or organization in the Houston for the Vietnamese community than here in Dallas. BRODY: Do you think that the Vietnamese community in Dallas, maybe, is more spread out and sort of in their own communities— NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Unless it’s, like, temple or religion related, I don’t think they have a—yeah, it’s not very close-knit here. Dallas ; Houston ; networking ; parenting ; religion ; temple ; Vietnamese community 3301 Engagement with politics BRODY: Right. So a different sort of integration it sounds like. And that makes me think about your—are you engaged with politics, either—some people have said that they keep a close eye on politics in Vietnam and also in the United States. Is that something that you see as something that you’re interested in? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I think my parents are more into it, because I left when I was such a young age so I would just hear it, but I’m not more of, okay, following it as much as my parents are. BRODY: Right. And what about American politics? NGUYEN: Same thing there. I mean, I just go based on the platforms. I mean, I don’t— I’m not like, Okay, I’m pro-Republican, and I’m pro-Democrat. So it’s just what we feel is the best choice for the generation. politics 3355 What does it mean to be American?/What does it mean to be Vietnamese? BRODY: Right. And here’s—as we kind of get to the end of our conversation here, I want to ask you a couple of questions. What do you think it means to be American, whether you’re thinking about yourself or your kids or just in general? NGUYEN: Okay. To be an American, to me, means opportunities and freedom, a lot. I feel like you get—you have so many options here. You get to pick what you want to study. You get to pick what you want to do. But at the same time, it’s also because of too much freedom, I feel like things—you take a lot of things for granted, so it’s pros and cons. While it’s a great country for opportunities and to have a better life and all that, sometimes I feel like that same freedom or that luxury prevents you from appreciation for what you do have. BRODY: Yeah. I understand what you mean. And what does it mean to you to be Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Vietnamese, to me, is being respectful to my roots, the heritage, being open to choice to be all American or Japanese or any—I don’t think I would ever change that. I think things are meant for a reason, and I’m fortunate to have that combo where I appreciate and have the respect of the culture but, at the same time, the opportunities, the options, the freedom of the future. BRODY: That’s really nice. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else that I didn’t ask you that you’d like to share in this interview, or think that I should know about the subject? NGUYEN: I don’t think so. I think we talked about pretty much everything from my childhood, to school, to where I’m at today with my kids and all that. I think it’s just—at the end of the day, it’s just living—regardless of what nationality you are—just living righteously and hoping that you embed that in your children. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. It was a beautiful story and I really am honored to have a chance to record this for this collection, so thank you so much. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) You’re welcome. Sure. If there’s any other questions that we probably didn’t cover or something, feel free to call me and— BRODY: I will. Thank you. NGUYEN: Uh-huh. American identity ; culture ; freedom ; heritage ; opportunities ; opportunity ; Vietnamese identity Baylor University Institute for Oral History Tina Trang Nguyen Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody June 1, 2019 Murphy, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 1, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Ms. Tina Nguyen. This interview is taking place at Ms. Nguyen&#039 ; s house in Murphy, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the &quot ; Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans&quot ; project. Thank you so much, Tina, for joining me for this interview. Just to get started, can you tell me about your life in Vietnam? |00:00:27| NGUYEN: Sure. I left Vietnam when I was about nine years old with a family group of twenty. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. That&#039 ; s a large group. NGUYEN: Yeah. So it&#039 ; s with my grandparents, and they were Chinese and half- Vietnamese. There were twenty of them, so it&#039 ; s everybody on my dad&#039 ; s side of the family. My grandparents and all their kids and their wives and their kids came along. So that means my mom--she left her whole family behind--so, like, her mother, her sisters, and brothers were behind. She came with us, and she was at the age of twenty-nine when she left. Because the family was so large, when we got to America, we split up ten and ten due to sponsorship. There&#039 ; s no one--no organization or church--that was able to sponsor a full twenty, so they could do, like, a ten-ten, so ten went to California, and ten went to Mississippi. But my story is, because I was half-Chinese or half-Vietnamese, it wasn&#039 ; t like I left secretly by a boat or something. My grandparents, because of their nationality, Chinese, and they were a little bit well off, they were able to pay, I guess, for our way to come to American by gold. I heard, like, a bar of gold for--I don&#039 ; t even know how much per person, or whatever. |00:02:23| BRODY: Who were they paying to? NGUYEN: I guess it&#039 ; s just the association? I&#039 ; m not sure because I was very young. But it&#039 ; s just, basically, you pay your way for a chance at freedom, not knowing. We did come by boat, but it wasn&#039 ; t like a secret way where we had to sneak out in the middle of the night. We had a designated date, a time to say goodbye to family, et cetera, and then the next morning, people were--I remember waving to my maternal grandmother side of the family and all that. So we went on a boat. I want to say about 180 people were on this small boat, and just based on what I remembered, it was very crowded and what was brought on the boat for food was ramen noodles. I remember just eating ramen noodles from a canister. And I think after, maybe, three or four days--my timing could be way off. I don&#039 ; t know, because I was so young--I think we landed in Indonesia. I think the city was called Galang and we stayed there for about nine months. They set up a camp, I guess--a refugee camp, and from what I remembered, it was more like a large cabin that would house about, maybe, twenty or thirty people in each cabin, and there&#039 ; s several cabins. And in the cabin, you basically--for each family, there&#039 ; s a big, large platform like a bed or something, so probably the size of a ten-by-ten or something, and that&#039 ; s basically your house. So we would have a roof over our head with that platform with just that wooden board, and then for food and stuff, I think you--we had to go get water. I remember going and they have water that is allocated out. You can&#039 ; t just get what you want. Each family have a certain amount, and you have to line up to get the water. The same thing with food ; they have allocated amount of sardines in a can, so I remember eating sardines with rice in a can, like, every single day. That was what we--that was just your allocated amount. We were there, and then once we were settled, then my mom got a job with the Indonesian people who had restaurants, and she was also a seamstress, so she was able to work for some small mom-and-pop shop to make clothes and-- |00:05:42| BRODY: There in Indonesia still? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Okay. So as part of the camp, there was a business stream as well? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. So--no. The weird thing is, I think, from what I remember--so the camp is on one side, and then I remember you have to travel by a small boat just to get to the other side of the island, I think, but--so the other side is more industrialized, whereas where we stayed--I mean, there weren&#039 ; t any buildings. There weren&#039 ; t any kind of businesses. It was just the refugee camp. And then, you take a little boat ride across--that&#039 ; s probably, like, thirty minutes, forty minutes or something, and it&#039 ; s just like a totally different world with businesses, restaurants, and stuff, whereas where we stayed didn&#039 ; t have any of that. Right. There were no restaurants. BRODY: (both speaking at once) No--okay. Just living spaces. NGUYEN: Exactly. Yep. And by way of making money, I think my mom or my dad somehow was talking to an Indonesian family, and somehow they came up with an opportunity for me, at the age of nine, to kind of live with this family that owns a restaurant, and I would help around the house or around the restaurant by washing dishes or something. It was those--it was just a combination of both. It&#039 ; s just a little amount of money or whatever the child can bring in at the time, and then more importantly, just an opportunity to blend in and make way of life for myself and then for the family as well. I think that probably occurred for nine months or so. And I remember at one point, they had--this family with a restaurant--they had sons of, like, fifteen, sixteen years old, and when it was time for us to get sponsored to go to Mississippi--Houston, Mississippi--I remember the story was, they offered my parent to see if they would be willing to let me stay and marry one of their sons! (laughs) |00:08:17| BRODY: Oh my goodness! (laughs) You were nine years old! NGUYEN: I know! (laughs) Yes. Of course, my mom said no, (both laugh) thank you. Well, no, we never took that opportunity. Then after nine months to a year in Indonesia, then we were sponsored. Like I said earlier, ten of us were sponsored in Houston or Jackson, Mississippi, by a church group. That was my grandparents, my dad, my two younger sisters, and my mom, so we, immediately, has a family of five, and then, my grandparent had one, two, three, four aunts, right? Four aunts. And--yeah, maybe three aunts, and then my grandparents--I know that the total, including the five of us, was ten. And then the rest of the family, which includes my oldest aunt and my uncle, went to Los Angeles, California, so they were sponsored by another organization. And so we lived in Mississippi for about a year or so, and I remembered they sponsored and gave us a house that would--that was big enough for all ten of us in there. By way of occupation, I remember my parents having to do lawn work, and I remember back then, it was huge just to make--I want to say--is it three dollar an hour, or maybe--yeah, maybe three dollar an hour? But they were doing kind of lawn care work, and we kind of blend in and go to church, and we stayed there for about a year. Then my mom found out she has an aunt that lives in Plano, Texas, so then she got into contact with her aunt, which is now my great-aunt, and they helped us--or sponsored us to come and live in Plano. So we made the drive--it was, like, thirteen hour drive from Mississippi to Plano--with my dad, and then we just got situated in Plano and lived there for a couple years. |00:11:17| BRODY: Did you live with your aunt? NGUYEN: Yes. We lived with my aunt for--or my great-aunt, rather, for about a year or so, and then she got jobs for my mom and my dad, which was to be a cook, like, at a Denny&#039 ; s or something. Once my parents got jobs, then we moved into an apartment. So they--we kind of got situated and lived on our own after that. |00:11:54| BRODY: What did your parents do in terms of work in Vietnam? NGUYEN: My dad, because of his heritage--his being half-Chinese--and my Chinese grandparents on the paternal side were well-off. They had a business and it was a shoe shop. And my mom was more on the--kind of like, my mom&#039 ; s side was more on the poor side, so she was more on the farming side. I remembered them going to sell stacked up loads of bananas on a boat and leaving in the middle of the night--yeah, collecting all the bananas and selling them. BRODY: So really different than what they ended up doing when they got here. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Yeah. Do you remember what that transition was like for them, to go from what they had been doing both in Vietnam, and then later in Mississippi, to working as cooks? NGUYEN: It was probably very difficult because, number one, they knew that they were leaving for freedom, better life for the kids, but basically, it was just the unknown because when we left, there was no guarantee that, Okay, yes, you&#039 ; re going to be sponsored, you&#039 ; re going to make it to America. It was just, You&#039 ; re going to some island, may it be Indonesia, or Thailand, or Malaysia,--I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; m not sure--but then from there, that&#039 ; s where you&#039 ; re hoping that you get sponsorships. So when they left, I don&#039 ; t think they have an idea as to, Okay, I&#039 ; m going to go to Texas or California. That just kind of like, We&#039 ; ll see what happens when we get there. So when they got here, not knowing a word of English and not having a skill because they were young--so it was basically starting fresh in a new country, learning a new language, getting a new skill, so I would imagine that was very difficult. |00:14:17| BRODY: Right. I would imagine. You mentioned about the sponsorships, that you were initially sponsored by a church. What role--did religion play a role in your family&#039 ; s story in your integration or later on in your life? NGUYEN: No. I think the church was just to help us out, but it wasn&#039 ; t like we were like, Okay, we&#039 ; re Christian, or we&#039 ; re Baptist, and therefore that we were selected because of that. I think they selected us knowing that we weren&#039 ; t religious yet and all that. It was more of a--I want to say, like a--what is that term? Montessori? Yeah. Kind of like one of those organizations that&#039 ; s just, Okay, we just want to help people out, and then giving them a chance to develop their own lives. |00:15:16| BRODY: Okay. Let&#039 ; s see. You were quite young, so you must&#039 ; ve been in school, both in Mississippi and then in Texas. Can you tell me what you remember about being in school? NGUYEN: Yes. So obviously, I started out in elementary and not knowing any English. I remembered going to a school in Mississippi, and I thought it was just odd. For some reason, I have this memory of a milk carton. During recess, they gave out milk carton or something--this is way back then--and coming from Vietnam, we don&#039 ; t drink milk. There&#039 ; s no cows. Vietnam is just not a dairy country. So I remember not coping very well with that because I couldn&#039 ; t drink milk, and I remember just being, I guess, frustrated because not knowing the language, not knowing how to communicate. And then in Vietnam, it wasn&#039 ; t as structured like in the US. Like, for example, when I left, I want to say that I was already--even though at nine, I was in the fifth or sixth grade because, basically, in Vietnam or where I was, if you master a certain skill or whatever is required, you get to skip the class and you move on to the next class. I was higher than most kids my age, and then I remember going to Mississippi and start in the first grade, and I think my dad--even though it&#039 ; s a different country, he was thinking it worked similarly in Vietnam. So somehow, he was talking to, I guess, a teacher or a principal or a translator, and he was asking to see if I could skip as well, (both laugh) and I think they were--they didn&#039 ; t go for it at first, but because of--like, my math was more advanced. I was already doing multiplication and all that, and so they did let me skip second and I went to third, I think. Something like--I know I was able to skip one grade. Then we moved to Plano and I remember, once we got to live with my great-aunt, it was just--the opportunities that was kind of presented to me from my aunt was, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re going to have so much homework and you&#039 ; re going to be carrying bunch of books,&quot ; and all that, which is--I know it sounds ironic, but it was like it was a good thing. It was just like an award to have that opportunity to do homework and carry a stacks of book this tall, because the way she was saying it, it wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Oh,&quot ; to scare you, but it was more of, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re not going to believe it. This is your opportunity.&quot ; For us, it was like--for education, it was really important. In Vietnam--I didn&#039 ; t tell you this, but--only the rich or the well- off could afford education, but if you live on a farm or something, then you--I mean, school is not easily accessible, so you would have to walk for miles to go to school. I think in Vietnam, I remember having to walk through the farm, and trees, and forest, and all that to go to the school, so just the thought of hearing about, &quot ; Oh, yeah, you&#039 ; ll be carrying stacks of books,&quot ; and all that, it was very rewarded--very welcoming. Like, &quot ; Oh my gosh! Really?&quot ; It was a gift. BRODY: Right. That didn&#039 ; t scare you at all. NGUYEN: Yeah! Yeah. No. Uh-huh. |00:19:27| BRODY: Once you did get to school, was there a lot of homework and a lot of books? NGUYEN: I think because I was in the oldest in my family of three girls, I&#039 ; ve always been more mature than my sisters, and maybe because I was the oldest, I&#039 ; ve always-- from elementary through junior high, through high school and college, I was very independent and very education-focused. I always wanted to make sure I&#039 ; m the head of the class, getting straight As. So it was more of--no one made me. I just kind of took that on by myself. BRODY: You have two sisters, you&#039 ; ve mentioned? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. BRODY: And they&#039 ; re younger. So were you all in the same school? NGUYEN: Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Were there other--besides yourself and your sisters, were there a lot of other Vietnamese kids in the school? NGUYEN: Not very many at all back then in Plano. I mean, probably less than a handful. I don&#039 ; t--yeah. I remember having one best friend in Plano, which I wish, somehow, I could find her again, but yeah, her name was Ha Le and she was in Plano in (??) Elementary School. |00:21:02| BRODY: Did you stay in Plano for long? NGUYEN: Yes. I think we stayed for about two or three years, and then we moved to Houston. That was probably in 1984 or &#039 ; 85. Then my grandparents, who--so when we left, it was just my immediate family--my dad and my two younger sisters and my mom--and then my grandparents--later on, they had other connections, and my aunt and my grandparents moved to Houston. So then, after living in Plano for two or three years, my grandparents were like, Okay, hey, there&#039 ; s some opportunities here in Houston with a lot more Asian community, et cetera, so they told us--or they told my parents, &quot ; That, maybe, is a better opportunity for jobs and all that, if you guys want to come check out Houston.&quot ; Then we moved to Houston in &#039 ; 84 or &#039 ; 85, and I think we lived there for a few years. Yeah, two or three years. |00:22:19| BRODY: Yeah. And then you came back? Or-- NGUYEN: Yes. Unfortunately, in Houston for two or three years, my parents got a divorce, and then--so my mom left with just us girls, went back to Plano, and then hooked up with her aunt again, the one--yeah. So then we lived in Plano here--I want to say, probably, in 1986 until I graduated high school in &#039 ; 91. BRODY: And so you went to Plano schools, or-- NGUYEN: I went--no. In Richardson. I went to Richardson High School. Um-hm. |00:23:13| BRODY: Right. At that point when you came back, were there more Vietnamese students, or still pretty limited? NGUYEN: I think so, yes, because I think when I came back here, that&#039 ; s where I met Dai, so it was a lot more--there were, I want to say--yeah. I know of at least three or probably five--at least five Vietnamese friends that were in my class, and then probably more a year ahead of me. And that&#039 ; s where I met my husband, too, in Richardson High School. BRODY: Right. So there was a growing community, it sounds like. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: I mean, did you have friends that were--did you mostly stick with the Vietnamese students, or did you have friends of all different races and ethnicities? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) We had friends of all different--yeah. There were-- most--yeah. Several of my friends were Vietnamese, but it wasn&#039 ; t like, Okay, I only hung around the Vietnamese group or something. |00:24:12| BRODY: Right. And so socially and academically, what do you remember about--were there any challenges or funny things that happened? NGUYEN: Yeah. Academically, I did very well. I think since second grade, I made straight As through high school, through college, et cetera. But there was one instance, for whatever reason, I remembered. It was camp--summer camp. Maybe that was, like, in the fifth grade, when--like my kids now--you get a chance to go off and--it wasn&#039 ; t in the summer ; it was during the school year--but you get a chance to go off for two or three days with the other students. And there&#039 ; s one story I remembered. In our country-- this is kind of funny--but what I remembered, clothing-wise, we didn&#039 ; t have specific clothing set for, like, pajamas ; certain things are for school or for summer and all that. I guess we were just lucky if you had clothes on your back, you know, so to me, at that young age, anything with a collar, I would remember it being, Okay, that&#039 ; s dressy enough. So I remember one time during that summer camp--or school camp trip--I wore what&#039 ; s considered to be a pajama set, but it had a collar, and for Vietnam, pajamas--if you have a collar, that&#039 ; s too fancy! (Brody laughs) It can&#039 ; t be pajamas! And so I never thought of it as being pajamas. I remember it being pink, but I didn&#039 ; t wear the whole outfit. It was just the shirt and I&#039 ; d wear a pant. But I remember wearing it, and then some kid made fun. It was like, &quot ; She&#039 ; s wearing pajamas!&quot ; And so then it dawned on me that, Oh, okay, there is a difference. Just because it has collar doesn&#039 ; t mean that it&#039 ; s normal, regular, everyday clothes. BRODY: Right. So it was a cultural lesson. (laughs) NGUYEN: Yes! (laughs) So yeah, that&#039 ; s kind of stuck with me somehow. |00:26:34| BRODY: That&#039 ; s a funny story. So it sounds like you did really well academically. How was your English learning process? Was it--what do you remember about that? NGUYEN: I think it was--I mean, when you were young, I think the younger you are, the easier it is, right? If you start--if you come here later in life, the language, the learning, the speaking of it, the pronunciation of it is harder because you have your way of pronouncing. Let&#039 ; s say, if Vietnamese was your primary language, chances are you&#039 ; re going to have an accent when you learn to speak English, but if you&#039 ; re younger, then you become more fluent easier, so I didn&#039 ; t have a hard time. I probably did at the very beginning. I&#039 ; m sure I did, but it was--because I was too young to remember. I mean, I remember it wasn&#039 ; t so hard that it created something that&#039 ; s not--bad memories or anything like that. |00:27:46| BRODY: Right. Not particularly stressful. How about your mom? How was her language--her process? NGUYEN: My mom--for her, I think she missed out a lot because, even though she left when she was twenty-nine, and so that&#039 ; s still young, right? Because when she got here, that&#039 ; s probably around the same age when I finished college and got situated, got married, and had my firstborn, so I could imagine it was more difficult for my mom because she didn&#039 ; t have an opportunity for education. As soon as we got here, it was just more of, okay, what can she do to provide for her family? So it was just--she went straight to the job market and trying to make a living for the family. I think she--so she worked as a cook for a country club, actually, in Richardson--the Richardson Canyon Creek Country Club--for, probably, about--at least ten years--ten, fifteen years. And then to make ends meet, she also--because her background, she knows how to sew, she&#039 ; s a seamstress--she would sew as her other job. So she--until I was going to college, she probably had two jobs for at least ten, fifteen years. BRODY: Oh. As a single mom as well, that must&#039 ; ve been a challenge. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Well, by then, she got remarried, so I have a stepdad. But still, she is probably one of the hardest, hardest working mom I know. |00:29:43| BRODY: It sounds like she really worked hard to make things work out for the family and to survive. Did you stay--it sounds like you moved from Plano to Richardson. Did you--what was the housing situation? Did you move into a different apartment? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Okay. Yes. After my parents got divorced and we left Houston to move back to Plano and she reconnected with my great aunt, right? Being a single mom with three girls--by then I was in the seventh grade, and then my sister would be in the sixth grade, and then my youngest would&#039 ; ve been, like, first grade or something--she didn&#039 ; t have, I guess, enough or couldn&#039 ; t provide enough for us, being a single mom. So there, my great-aunt said that there was an organization where they would help with the kids, but you would have to have the kids go stay in a children&#039 ; s home--like a dorm or something. And so three of us--my two sisters and myself--we went and lived in Buckner Children&#039 ; s Home. That&#039 ; s off of--that&#039 ; s on Buckner [Boulevard]. I remember it was extremely, extremely hard on my mom because she felt like, okay, she couldn&#039 ; t take care of us, but my aunt convinced her that, &quot ; Okay, this is not long term. It could be just three months, it could be six months, just so you can get on your foot. And then once you have an apartment, get a job, or something, then you&#039 ; ll get them back. But it&#039 ; s hard for you to go to work, and then, the kids being so young, who&#039 ; s going to watch them? Who&#039 ; s going to take them to school, et cetera?&quot ; So she convinced my mom that this is probably the best opportunity for us kids. I think my mom agreed to it, and so my sisters and I went there, and my other two sisters stayed for a week. They couldn&#039 ; t handle it. They were like, No. They didn&#039 ; t want it. I think especially for my youngest sister, it was just hard because they grouped you by age so we couldn&#039 ; t stay together. So the thought--my mom was like, the thought of my youngest sister--she&#039 ; s five years younger than me, so I was in the seventh grade, she would be in, like, first or second grade, right? At that age, she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t imagine her being by herself.&quot ; Even though we&#039 ; d get to see her every day, we still can&#039 ; t sleep with her and all that. So then my two sisters wanted to go home. Being the older one, I was like, &quot ; I think I could handle this and help my mom out,&quot ; and so I stayed and I lived in Buckner until, probably, about--almost three years ; sixth, seventh, eighth grade. I think I left in eighth grade. |00:33:34| BRODY: Did they--what was the name of the organization that--do you remember? NGUYEN: Yeah. It was called Buckner Children&#039 ; s Home. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Oh, that was--okay, so that was just who was running it. And then did they take to you school every day? NGUYEN: Yeah. So basically it is a--it&#039 ; s almost like a little campus with, like, fifteen different dorms. There&#039 ; s a girls&#039 ; dorm. There&#039 ; s a boys&#039 ; dorm. There&#039 ; s a big cafeteria. It&#039 ; s almost like the little world. They have a church. And then in the morning, they&#039 ; ll have a bus that would take us to the public school, and then they&#039 ; ll bring us back home. They have a rec center, et cetera, so-- BRODY: Do they take you to the school that you&#039 ; re zoned for in your neighborhood where your mom was living? NGUYEN: Yeah. My mom was living--no. She could come and see me on the weekend, but my mom was going back to live with my aunt to help make a living. But then on the weekend, my mom would come visit me. BRODY: Okay. So your sisters went home, and then your mom could see them daily, but you were sticking it out in the children&#039 ; s home. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think I just--I liked the structure of--because for whatever reason--I don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s because when I left, I know the importance of education more than my younger sisters, so I appreciated it a lot more and I liked the structure of, &quot ; Okay, okay. This is what you do. From certain time, you go to school.&quot ; I actually was the one that volunteered, told my mom that I think I can give it a try and see how I&#039 ; ll do. Yeah, so I stayed there about three years. |00:35:29| BRODY: Did you develop a lot of friendships there? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. You basically live there in a dorm. It&#039 ; s a two-story dorm, and you have what&#039 ; s called a &quot ; house parent.&quot ; They&#039 ; re kind of like your parents that would take care of you twenty-four seven. They&#039 ; ll--on a daily basis, you get to make your phone calls to your family and all that. They--I lived with them and they became kind of like my parents. They&#039 ; re my American parents. In fact, after I left, and even when I went to--years later--five, ten years later, going to high school and college, I would always go back to see them until they passed. They both passed. BRODY: Was it a religiously run group? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. It was run by a church. It was a Baptist church, and you would go to church every Wednesday and Sunday. BRODY: Were the other kids from all different backgrounds? NGUYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. There were, like, three other Vietnamese. It was just basically the same situation. It was more of, your parents are in trouble, or they don&#039 ; t--they can&#039 ; t afford, or let&#039 ; s say, their parents--I don&#039 ; t know--do drugs or something. It&#039 ; s just a better place for the child. I guess it&#039 ; s a better option than foster because you&#039 ; re not living with a family. You&#039 ; re living with other people a similar age, similar situation, and you&#039 ; re being housed by a couple--a grandparent that actually live on that campus. |00:37:34| BRODY: Yeah. That&#039 ; s interesting. I&#039 ; m thinking about your--how you think of yourself, then. You had a variety of different experiences, both because of the age that you were when you came, being so young, and then living in different parts of the country and different parts of Texas as well. When you think about your own identity, how do you see yourself? Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? American? NGUYEN: I think--I feel like I&#039 ; m very fortunate to have the lives of two worlds, because that&#039 ; s one thing I feel really bad for my kids, because they only know this world here. I mean, yes, we took them back to Vietnam, but they don&#039 ; t have the same appreciation, the same feeling or thoughts about Vietnam culture unless you really live it. So I feel like--I mean, even food and stuff, the authentic food and stuff--they don&#039 ; t eat it or they don&#039 ; t enjoy it like I do, so I feel like it&#039 ; s more of a loss for them. I feel very privileged and fortunate to be a Vietnamese, but still have the opportunity that I have living in America. BRODY: It is--yeah, that&#039 ; s true, that you&#039 ; ve got two different cultures that you&#039 ; re able to enjoy. NGUYEN: Yeah. But my kids, even though I try to explain it to them, I don&#039 ; t think they--they will never grasp it. They&#039 ; re like, Oh, no, I&#039 ; m good. You know? (Brody laughs) Yeah. We don&#039 ; t have the freedom, the luxury that they have now with video games and all that. But if I were to think back of what I had, just playing with chopsticks and balls, but just--I feel like my life is like a chapter--a book, right? I feel like it&#039 ; s a lot more interesting, because I have all of these--than somebody like my kids, who just have just their version of it. Yeah. I know it sounds hard and probably bad, but to them, they&#039 ; re okay. They&#039 ; re like, Oh, no, I&#039 ; m great. |00:40:12| BRODY: Would you say you would think of your kids as American? And what does that mean? NGUYEN: I think they&#039 ; re more Americanized than the traditional Vietnamese. Like, they&#039 ; re a different generation than, let&#039 ; s say, me and my husband. So even though we encourage them--in fact, when they were younger, it&#039 ; s much easier when they were younger than now--to speak Vietnamese in the home because I want them, number one, to know their roots ; two, whenever you have more than one language, it&#039 ; s so much better for you. So we basically either take them to a temple so they can continue to learn the Vietnamese language or force them to speak when they&#039 ; re in the home--the Vietnamese. We&#039 ; re like, Okay, when you&#039 ; re at school, feel free, but once you get home, I don&#039 ; t want you to talk English to grandma, grandpa, or me or dad. That was easier before they go to school. Then once they start being more fluent in school and with friends, we still have to remind them. I think now, my kids, even though they don&#039 ; t speak it--or they--my oldest one does. He&#039 ; s really good. He can actually read and write, but my youngest one, Maddison--she doesn&#039 ; t speak it very well, but she understand everything. (both laugh) BRODY: Should be careful what you say. (laughs) NGUYEN: Right. Right. Yeah. She understands when I speak to her. In our family, we probably do both. We&#039 ; ll combine English and Vietnamese all in one sentence. (laughs) |00:42:00| BRODY: That&#039 ; s--and everybody understands. That&#039 ; s interesting. You mentioned going back to Vietnam and taking the kids. What was that like, and what-- NGUYEN: Oh, okay. My first trip to Vietnam was before the kids. Actually, my husband went first. So, I mentioned I met my husband in &#039 ; 89, so we&#039 ; re high school sweethearts. He&#039 ; s a year ahead of me. He graduated in &#039 ; 90, I graduated in &#039 ; 91. And then he--even though we were young, I guess we&#039 ; re a lot more mature than our kids at my age back then, so we knew that--or he knew that he wanted to marry me and that we would have our life together, so he waited a year until I graduated. He went to UNT [University of North Texas] for me to graduate, and then we both went to Texas A&amp ; M afterwards. And then, we graduated from A&amp ; M in &#039 ; 95 at the same time, and I remember literally two weeks after graduation was our wedding day. We planned our wedding--because the other thing about our culture that I&#039 ; m really proud of--and even though I don&#039 ; t have that same expectation as the current generation--my parents were extremely strict, and especially since my mom has three girls. Later on, my mom remarried, and so I have a stepdad who is still living near us here--but they were really strict, and they don&#039 ; t believe in dating. There was no such thing as, Okay, you&#039 ; re going to a movie, or a boyfriend kind of deal, so the only time my husband, now, got to see me, even when he was a senior and I was a junior, was him coming over to have dinner at our house. |00:44:14| BRODY: With the family. NGUYEN: With the family, yes. So it was huge for me to go off to college. My mom always knew that I was very focused on education, so she was not going to be the person that&#039 ; s stand in my way, so choosing the location of the school or all that was all me than my parents. And so my parents, being very strict--so they didn&#039 ; t--they don&#039 ; t believe in sex before marriage. (laughs) So even after we graduate high school, I remember my stepdad, now, have the &quot ; birds and the bees&quot ; talk with my husband, now, who was my boyfriend back then, and made him a promise that he--to keep me pure until we get married. And so we--two weeks after--so we planned our wedding that last semester, and I think probably the biggest accomplishment he and I ever done was basically-- because his situation is similar to mine, but his is a little bit more difficult because he doesn&#039 ; t have parents here. His parents were in Vietnam, so he kind of raised himself. He came here with his sister and his brothers, so he kind of raised himself--buying his own car, going to his own sport events at school and all that, or paying for his own insurance. Even when we were in high school, he was working at 7-Eleven on the weekend just for cash so he can pay for insurance for his car, gas, and all that. And even at that age, for Richardson High School, he was paying for my lunch every day, so he was already kind of taking care of me. So we went to college together and, sure enough, he kept his promise. (laughs) So we--I live in my own apartment with my roommates, he has his roommates, and we got married two weeks after graduation, and, yes, in the traditional Vietnamese ceremony. |00:46:45| BRODY: What was that ceremony like? NGUYEN: The traditional Vietnamese is very--it&#039 ; s a long thing. It&#039 ; s not just, you go to church for the ceremony, that&#039 ; s it. It&#039 ; s like--well, first, there&#039 ; s an engagement ceremony. For our culture, you only--not only are you marrying each other, you&#039 ; re marrying the family, so the family is very involved. So even with the engagement, you have a ceremony where the groom&#039 ; s side comes over to the bride&#039 ; s side to request for a hand in marriage, and they bring gifts and all that. And then a year later, we got married. It&#039 ; s same thing there. They basically--everybody from the groom&#039 ; s side drive over, present gifts. We have our own ceremony, either at home or at the temple, pay your respect to your ancestors, and then you exchange your vows there, et cetera. And then, at night&#039 ; s when they have the reception for all the guest. BRODY: The party, right? NGUYEN: Yes. Uh-huh. BRODY: Did you have a big party? NGUYEN: Yeah! (laughs) When--because we got married to weeks after graduation, we didn&#039 ; t have our jobs yet, so I would say that probably the biggest accomplishment both of us did was we paid for our college ourself, because our parents weren&#039 ; t well off. We paid for the wedding ourself--well, with the help of some student loans, towards the end. (laughs) In fact, that last semester, Chad borrowed a student loan to buy the ring! (laughs) Yeah. And I was also very fortunate. Even when I was in high school, I was applying scholarships everywhere, so I paid for myself through college by way of scholarships. But I think that&#039 ; s probably our biggest accomplishment is, like, we got--we kind of set everything up for ourselves for what we have. |00:48:57| BRODY: That sounds like you worked really hard to do things on your terms and do things the way you wanted to. That&#039 ; s impressive. Your story is really interesting because you&#039 ; ve gone through so many different things and seen so many different types of people. Along the way, did you ever have any experience with what you perceived to be discrimination or racism? Was that something that you encountered? NGUYEN: Fortunately, I haven&#039 ; t encountered anything major, but maybe some in the work place, but being-- BRODY: Where do you work? What type of work do you do? NGUYEN: I have a degree in accounting from A&amp ; M, and my husband has an electrical engineering. My first job after I left A&amp ; M, we moved to Houston. He had a job at Compaq Computer, which is now HP [Hewlett Packard], and because of my always ambitious--I always wanted to work for the best of the best, and so my first job out of college--and this is way before all this happened, but I don&#039 ; t know if you know, but--so my first job was with Enron, (laughs) which was before all this happened. In fact, when I worked for them for three years and until I had my baby in &#039 ; 99, and that&#039 ; s when we literally dropped everything and we moved back home to Dallas. And then, 2001 or whenever, that&#039 ; s when the Enron collapsed and all that. In fact, I let--it was just like the Titanic sank. No one knew. I mean, I even left the majority of my 401k in the Enron fund and probably lost all of it. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: So no, it was horrible, but I was fortunate in that there were people I knew that were close to retiring that lost, like, half a million dollars--everything. BRODY: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. NGUYEN: Yeah. It was just--yeah. It was just so crazy when I heard all that happen, when I was here in Dallas. |00:51:25| BRODY: Wow. So you came back to Dallas after having the baby and-- NGUYEN: Yes. BRODY: What was driving that decision? NGUYEN: Okay, so I guess being--having your firstborn, it&#039 ; s probably the most important thing in life. He&#039 ; s like our little prince, (Brody laughs) because all of our families--even though we graduated and moved to Houston, all of my family and Chad&#039 ; s family--which is his sisters and brothers--are here in Dallas. We wanted family member to take care of Sean, and we couldn&#039 ; t imagine a stranger taking care of him. So as soon as he got a job transfer, we literally picked up our clothes. We left the house. We didn&#039 ; t even have it sold. We took our clothes and we moved back home, here, to Dallas, just so we can have somebody take care of Sean when I found a job. In fact, I didn&#039 ; t even have a job yet, but I knew that I could find a job and sure enough, I found it in a month or so, when I got here. |00:52:37| BRODY: So you felt like he was well taken care of by your family members. Have you tried to stay in contact with or engaged with the larger Vietnamese community outside your family? NGUYEN: Here, it&#039 ; s mostly more family. There are some organizations, but we&#039 ; re not as active just because there&#039 ; s just so--we&#039 ; re so busy with our own families. Yes. I mean, yeah, after that, then I had my other two kids. It was just--I think we become more of your typical--not just Vietnamese, but just a family, a married family with kids that has sports and just kids activities and stuff. So it wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Okay, because I&#039 ; m Vietnamese, I&#039 ; m going to go to this organization, et cetera.&quot ; It was just--we&#039 ; re raised and we live as if we&#039 ; re a typical family. BRODY: Yeah. Do you--when you think about--though you&#039 ; re not particularly involved with the Vietnamese community in general, because you&#039 ; re doing family things and you&#039 ; re a busy family, when you think about the Vietnamese community in North Texas, what are some words that come to mind? NGUYEN: I think there&#039 ; s a lot more, I guess--a lot more Vietnamese networking or association in Houston than in Dallas. I think the way Dallas is structured is so spread out, whereas Houston, it&#039 ; s more in the southwest Bellaire area, so there&#039 ; s a lot more activities or organization in the Houston for the Vietnamese community than here in Dallas. BRODY: Do you think that the Vietnamese community in Dallas, maybe, is more spread out and sort of in their own communities-- NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) Right. Unless it&#039 ; s, like, temple or religion related, I don&#039 ; t think they have a--yeah, it&#039 ; s not very close-knit here. |00:54:56| BRODY: Right. So a different sort of integration it sounds like. And that makes me think about your--are you engaged with politics, either--some people have said that they keep a close eye on politics in Vietnam and also in the United States. Is that something that you see as something that you&#039 ; re interested in? NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) I think my parents are more into it, because I left when I was such a young age so I would just hear it, but I&#039 ; m not more of, okay, following it as much as my parents are. BRODY: Right. And what about American politics? NGUYEN: Same thing there. I mean, I just go based on the platforms. I mean, I don&#039 ; t-- I&#039 ; m not like, Okay, I&#039 ; m pro-Republican, and I&#039 ; m pro-Democrat. So it&#039 ; s just what we feel is the best choice for the generation. |00:55:54| BRODY: Right. And here&#039 ; s--as we kind of get to the end of our conversation here, I want to ask you a couple of questions. What do you think it means to be American, whether you&#039 ; re thinking about yourself or your kids or just in general? NGUYEN: Okay. To be an American, to me, means opportunities and freedom, a lot. I feel like you get--you have so many options here. You get to pick what you want to study. You get to pick what you want to do. But at the same time, it&#039 ; s also because of too much freedom, I feel like things--you take a lot of things for granted, so it&#039 ; s pros and cons. While it&#039 ; s a great country for opportunities and to have a better life and all that, sometimes I feel like that same freedom or that luxury prevents you from appreciation for what you do have. BRODY: Yeah. I understand what you mean. And what does it mean to you to be Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Vietnamese, to me, is being respectful to my roots, the heritage, being open to choice to be all American or Japanese or any--I don&#039 ; t think I would ever change that. I think things are meant for a reason, and I&#039 ; m fortunate to have that combo where I appreciate and have the respect of the culture but, at the same time, the opportunities, the options, the freedom of the future. |00:58:51| BRODY: That&#039 ; s really nice. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you&#039 ; d like to share in this interview, or think that I should know about the subject? NGUYEN: I don&#039 ; t think so. I think we talked about pretty much everything from my childhood, to school, to where I&#039 ; m at today with my kids and all that. I think it&#039 ; s just--at the end of the day, it&#039 ; s just living--regardless of what nationality you are--just living righteously and hoping that you embed that in your children. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. It was a beautiful story and I really am honored to have a chance to record this for this collection, so thank you so much. NGUYEN: (both speaking at once) You&#039 ; re welcome. Sure. If there&#039 ; s any other questions that we probably didn&#039 ; t cover or something, feel free to call me and-- BRODY: I will. Thank you. NGUYEN: Uh-huh. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh010_btba_010.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tina Nguyen Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh010_btba_010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/95c364e0069356d88ca4dfa0168a3fa2.jpg f0d7bf04786620485f3dee0be6ccbfcf Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Connie Phan OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Connie Phan, May 31, 2019 2019oh009_btba_009 1:09:57 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Connie Phan Betsy Brody mp3 oh-interviews_phan-kc_2019-05-31_bdg_acc.mp3 1:|22(4)|26(13)|33(3)|44(5)|57(9)|72(9)|84(1)|92(2)|121(9)|131(9)|154(5)|165(10)|174(7)|187(2)|206(3)|216(10)|234(2)|255(1)|262(1)|281(12)|290(5)|302(5)|308(4)|315(9)|326(7)|338(10)|355(3)|373(7)|394(8)|403(14)|420(9)|428(6)|445(3)|462(3)|484(2)|495(7)|501(14)|527(2)|533(12)|543(11)|554(5)|565(7)|584(2)|603(5)|621(9)|630(1)|643(4)|647(7)|652(8)|671(3)|691(4)|707(5)|717(4)|728(12)|741(11)|757(3)|764(11)|772(7)|787(2)|794(5)|814(9)|820(8)|837(5)|849(3)|868(6)|874(12)|886(4)|897(4)|909(6)|923(12) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117362 Aviary audio 0 Introduction BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is May 31, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Ms. Connie Phan. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the “Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans” project. Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans 23 Escaping Vietnam by boat/Encounter with pirates and almost drowning BRODY: All right, Connie. Thank you so much for joining me here today. I am really looking forward to hearing your story. To get started with, can you tell me a little bit about what your life was like in Vietnam? PHAN: First, thank you so much for including me in this project. When I was in Vietnam, before I came here in 1978, when I left Vietnam, I was still a student—sophomore year. Oh, no, actually, freshman—yes. We left Vietnam in April 1978, and we arrive about four day and five night on a boat. About, let’s see, maybe twenty-two-meter boat with about 430 people—refugees, and we—during those three day—four day, we encounter pirate. (begins to cry) Looking back, I feel so blessed because there are so many refugee in boat didn’t make it. They got robbed, and woman and kid—either the pirate took them with them when they didn’t get any gold, but I’ve always been lucky. We only got it second time, and then the third time, we saw a pirate’s boat, but then we almost to Malaysia, I think, so they kind of leave us alone, so we made it to a military island—very small, remote island. Doesn’t have any—probably a few military personnel, and they help us get onto the island. I believe it was around two or three o’clock a.m. or something. It’s very dark. We were so glad that we made it. I’m sorry. (laughs) BRODY: No, no. Thank you for sharing that story. That was—I mean, it sounds very scary for you, and you were young. PHAN: I probably fifteen at the time or sixteen. Yes. And I’m the oldest of the five, and my sister is about eight years younger than me. Before we accept this plan, my father always want us to know how to swim, so in the morning, four of us—we’d just go into the beach and try to learn how to swim with some neighbors, but we all know how to swim by then already. And I was very—I mean, after four and five day, the fourth day, we already lack of food, so we—and be sitting at the boat. Your body is tired. I didn’t realize. But then, we are so excited to see the island, so everybody jump off the boat and I said, “Oh, I can do it. I can swim, so don’t mind me.” I jumped down, and I keep sinking, sinking, sinking! Yeah. I couldn’t get up to the top. And then, suddenly, there’s a big hand that’s grabbed me and pulled me up. I said, “Oh! That’s my dad! Oh, Lord!” (laughs) BRODY: So your dad was able to grab you. PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. Actually, he’s also the one that helping people bring up to the shore. Yeah, so I said, “Oh my goodness.” I remember that moment that I look up. It was him. Oh, it’s like— BRODY: (both speaking at once) What a relief. PHAN: Uh-hm. But yeah, those memory is kind of buried in the back of my mind. boat ; boat people ; drowning ; escape ; gold ; island ; leaving Vietnam ; Malaysia ; military island ; pirates ; refugees ; swimming ; Vietnam 307 Details of plan and payment to escape Vietnam/Opportunities available due to Chinese descent BRODY: Your dad, in Vietnam, was he working in some capacity with the Americans who were there? Or what did he do? PHAN: He actually was a businessman. The trip that—our trip, actually, is organized by my—I guess call it uncle? My aunt’s husband. There’s about twelve or thirteen people in the group that organize this trip, but we had to work with the local government—I guess, police station or something like that, the local—that they have to give them the gold under the table for each person, at least five and half ounces of gold per head, so that—regardless of old or young, so that’s the base price that they have to provide to the local government so they can let us leave the country that we’re not prosecute. Most of—I would say 95 percent of the boat are Chinese Vietnamese, which is—most of them are either like me—my parent is Chinese but born in Vietnam, so I guess is considered a minority? BRODY: Within Vietnam. PHAN: Vietnam, yeah. And Vietnamese people—the Vietnamese citizen is not allowed on this kind of planned trip. Yeah. But actually, there are few family is Vietnamese, but they—you can tell by their last names is very distinctive. It’s Nguyen, N-g-u-y-e-n, and a friend of my dad or someone introduce him, and they wanted to leave too, so they would ask my dad, would have to do fake paper, identification for them to change their name to someone else, like a more Chinese-Vietnamese last name—either Tran or, like, Phan, or some other name. Actually, my father’s name is Luong—L-u-o-n-g. In Vietnamese spelling, for—in China, it’s called __(??) or __(??) in Hong Kong. So it can tell that, but that’s more Chinese that was born in Vietnam. They came from China. BRODY: Okay. So there were distinctions in that. Did they get the fake papers? PHAN: Yeah. So those—I think at least two family were able to escape, but they were very quiet on the boat. If they talk—they don’t want people discover that they are true Vietnamese citizen. BRODY: Oh, I see. PHAN: And they might—if they get in trouble, we all get in trouble. BRODY: So they stayed quiet on the boat. PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. Yes. Chinese descent ; gold ; local government ; Vietnamese-Chinese 515 Memories of finding shelter on Malaysian island/Hiding money in shoes BRODY: Wow. So you got to Malaysia, right? To this island? PHAN: Correct. BRODY: And what was that like? PHAN: The island basically had no water—no running water. The people that came—the refugee came before us, they dig wells and built a shed. They would go to the—to cut wood and then make the shed, and then use some sort of plastic like a roof. So I guess younger men, or they had the ability physically, can go do that. Like, older person might not. Luckily, my dad had enough—he bought two hundred dollar US that he buried. He put it in my brother’s—the shoe—I guess—how— BRODY: The sole. PHAN: The sole, yeah. He hide it in there, so that’s how we got the money and buy a shed for seven of us so we don’t have to build a—otherwise, we would be sleeping out on the open. BRODY: On the beach. PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. So that’s how—actually, how we had that two-hundred dollar left, because when we encountered the pirate, basically, they took everything—the watches or a necklace or a ring that you have. Yeah. Of course— BRODY: (both speaking at one) So smart that your dad hid the money in the shoe. PHAN: Yes. Back then, US dollar, actually, is illegal to exchange US dollar in Vietnam. You can get—you can put in jail for having US money—currency. BRODY: Right, by 1978. PHAN: Yes. Actually, the whole time in Vietnam, you cannot have currency—you cannot own US currency. island ; Malaysia ; money ; shed ; shelter ; US currency 653 Memories of day-to-day life in Malaysian refugee camp (Pulau Bidong) BRODY: Wow. Okay, so that was really brave (Phan laughs) that he did that, that he had that. From the camp, what was your day-to-day life like in the camp? PHAN: It’s the—I guess United Nation will provide the food for each person. They gave us a bag—like, a plastic bag. Inside, there’s would be three can of food. One is a green bean. One’s fish or either, if it’s not fish, it’d be chicken and—what’s the other? Maybe red bean or something like that, and a bag of—a pouch of rice that we have to cook. Every person had the same kind of bag. Every morning, we would be had to headed out to the main, I guess, where gathering—just stand in line and get that bag, and that’s our food. I guess the water—we just—if you live in the shed, it already have the well built, then you’re lucky. Otherwise, you had to go the public well to carry the water, but those were water—the well water just only for shower. You can’t really drink any, and the United Nation do provide water for per person. I think it may be a gallon per person or something, and a family—you can—I forgot my younger brother, my second brother—he’s the one that would carry the water for the drinking water and for—so those are for us to drink and eat, shower, those kind of—you have to use your well water. And those—every day, we just go and stand in line, get those food and come home, and then my mom would have to find way to cook those. And the refugee in the Pulau Bidong, they getting very creative that they need to find fresh meat and fresh fruit, so they do built their own—a little boat, and they would go out to the closer, I guess, bigger city island somewhere in Malaysia. I heard that maybe, it’s called Terengganu, but I’m not sure, but that’s how they go out, and they do that either at night or somehow, not letting people know. And then when they come back, they bring the goods back, and they would have a market to sell it. BRODY: Wow. That’s enterprising. PHAN: Uh-hm. But then, we would get in trouble if they get caught. Yeah. The military there, they don’t want you do that, (laughs) but I don’t know how they do it, but they did it. So that’s how we get—sometimes, we would have money, then—people have money, they were able to buy fresh fruit or fresh meat. Otherwise, they would stay with the canned food. BRODY: You were a young child, right? Like, you were in high school still? Did you have to stand in line for every day for the food too? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-hm. Yes. BRODY: So, adults, children—everybody individually. PHAN: Actually, not every day. They—the shipment come maybe twice a week or something like that. And then, I guess—my memory is, like, we’d stand in line getting that. Every time, we like, Oh, the shipment’s come! Everybody get outside! Let’s go! Everybody had to go down to the center to stand in line and get those. And then most of the time, we don’t have anything to do, then I join a drafting class that the refugee camp there—the people get there before and they have teacher that—or that used to be a teacher, so they volunteer and teach the kids, so I joined. I signed up, went to the drafting class, so I was able to learn how to draw, and I brought you that book today. drafting class ; food ; rations ; Terengganu ; United Nations ; volunteers ; water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidong_Island Wikipedia page for Bidong Island 921 Description of docks and process of leaving the refugee camp BRODY: Yeah. This notebook that you brought from the camp—the cover says, “United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees,” and you’ve got your name on there, and then your drawings that you’ve made. So this is how you were occupied during the day, learning. There’s some really nice drawings in here, especially—tell me about this one of the docks there. PHAN: Oh, yeah. The bridge of the dock—yeah. I guess it was built—the first one, probably, is a lot older and is more for incoming boat, and the other one is the one that leaving, which is everybody wanted to go on—be on that bridge—I mean, that dock, because that’s the one that you’ll get to go— BRODY: (both speaking at once) Get to go somewhere else. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah, yeah. Go to settle at place. You either go to America, Australia, or French, or any country in the European that they accept the refugee. BRODY: For your family, when did you get to go onto the dock to go somewhere else? PHAN: I believe we—around August of 1979. Yes. And at night time, usually, they would announce the name of the boat, and then the name of the person—the family that gets selected to go. BRODY: Oh, okay. Every evening. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. Every evening around seven o’clock, I think. And I remember clearly, at night, we—usually we would get together and sing or—I learned how to sing in English, but I didn’t understand what I was singing, (Brody laughs) and now, I remember I was thinking of the songs—something—“Que Sera, Sera”? I don’t know exactly which—French, right? BRODY: (both speaking at once) Spanish. (both laugh) PHAN: Oh, okay. So something like that. And then, when we get quiet, when—then the announcement came on one of those—what was it called? BRODY: Loud speakers. PHAN: Yes, and they have everywhere. Our boat number was KG-zero-two-zero-six, and I think our number rank—is ranked number—either four [hundred] thirty or—yeah. I forgot the rank number. That’s—they call it boat number one, two—if you say you come—your number is—your boat number is two hundred, then they know—they kind of know what month you come in. Yeah. So we are four hundred thirty-something. And in one day, it can be twenty to thirty boat, but very tiny boat, and some day doesn’t have any boat coming in. So I think the—in April of nineteen eight—between April and May 1978 is vast of boat coming in. The number get—adding quicker, from either four hundred to four-fifty, like to four-seventy-five, so quick. Yeah. When I left, I think it may be five hundred or five-fifty? I’m not quite remember. It’s been a long time. BRODY: (both speaking at once) So, you had been there for over a year. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Fourteen month. BRODY: Fourteen months? PHAN: Yeah. Um-hm. | America ; Australia ; boats ; docks ; drafting class ; families ; notebook ; Que Sera, Sera ; refugee camp ; singing ; UN High Commissioner for Refugees ; UNHCR ; United Nations 1154 Finding a sponsor and heading to America BRODY: It changed because you got a sponsor? PHAN: Yeah. We would get interview by different country, and first, we were interviewed by Australia representative, and they will ask—they asked my father, Do you have any other relative that live in other country? And then my dad said, “Oh yeah. I have a sister in America,” and then, he kind of, “Oh.” He shouldn’t say that because (laughs) he actually really wanted to go to Australia. Yeah. And then they said, Oh, okay. Then you had to go to United State, (laughs) so I say, “Okay.” So that’s how we end up in the United State. But Australia—actually my cousin, which is my dad’s aunt’s younger sister, which is my cousin—he already been to Australia and he left a year or two year—maybe a year before when we left in ’78, so he left already either ’77 or ’76. And now he also made it to Malaysia or Indonesia. I’m not quite remember, but he made it to Australia. That’s why my dad wanted to go to Australia. But it never—my aunt—he had two sister, and the younger sister, when they left before us, she took care of two of my cousin—no, three of my cousin—male, there(??). So a total of four of them made it to Pennsylvania, so that’s why my dad just told the representative in Australia that he had a sister made it to USA, so that’s why we—okay. Said, “Okay, you go to the United State table over there.” (laughs) That’s how we end up in United State. BRODY: So they called your name, and you were able to get on a boat. Where did your family head first? PHAN: We actually—yeah. When we get to the dock, then they would take us to Kuala Lumpur, which is the capital of Malaysia, and that’s where we get on a plane. That plane was like a big military plane—can seat five hundred people, I believe. It’s called a Tiger, I remember. It’s very big plane. A lot of refugee people on that plane, and then I believe we flew to San Francisco, and then we stay in the military camp. I remember our family was given a room. Seven of us stayed there for about a week. Maybe they were making sure that we don’t have any infected disease. Then we get to go to our home—I guess, home city, which is the sponsor that sponsor us, and my dad—he had a friend that live in Richmond, Virginia, and we call him Uncle Bac—B-a-c, I think. He is a Vietnamese citizen that a good friend of my dad when they were in Vietnam. I don’t know how they connected anyway, but that’s—and then, Uncle Bac—B-a-c—I guess Uncle Bac that we’d call him back then—he connect—I guess he get in touch with the Catholic church, and that’s how they sponsored our family, and that’s why we went to Richmond, Virginia. And our sponsor at the time, the church—there’s two lady. I remember one of them was Mrs. Ellis—Ellis, E-l-l-i-s—and her husband’s Alexander Ellis the Third, and I guess we call her Mrs. Ellis. She’s a volunteer and she’s very active in her church, and there’s another lady that work with her. I forgot her name, but—yes. They both help us to settle. Found a house for us to rent, and I remember our address for the house in Richmond is 2333 West Gray Street. BRODY: Wow. (both laugh) That’s a great memory. PHAN: Yeah, and we happened to live on the Gray Street! (laughs) Yeah. America ; Australia ; church ; family ; house ; housing ; Kuala Lumpur ; Malaysia ; military camp ; military plane ; quarantine ; relatives ; Richmond ; sponsors ; sponsorship ; United States ; USA ; Virginia 1493 High school years in Richmond BRODY: How long were you in Richmond? PHAN: It’s about two year, and it’s—first year, we loved it because we had never seen snow. And we said, Oh, so cool and so nice! Had so much fun. But then, after second year, we said, We cannot stay in this kind of weather. I believe we had to put chains on the tire. It’s very hard. And I went to a high school—they put me in a high school—Thomas Jefferson High School. They put me in tenth grade and I didn’t speak any English. I had a dictionary—Chinese dictionary and I carry it with me, and I believe there’s already the three Vietnamese refugee already in that school and that they also—their last name’s also Tran, so we just connected right away, and we rented the same house. They lived upstair. We lived downstair. (laughs) BRODY: So immediate community. PHAN: Uh-huh. And I remember, sometime, I left my dictionary in the school somewhere, and somebody find it and they just bring it to me. “This is your.” I said, “That’s right. It’s mine.” (laughs) It’s very funny. BRODY: You need it. PHAN: Uh-huh. And I was put in a English class for mental—well, I guess, not “mental,” but it’s more talent-challenge kid, like either handicap, or on wheelchair, or kid that have speech problem, so I was put in that class so I can learn English easier for me. BRODY: So they put you in a special-ed class. PHAN: Dead correct. That’s right. That’s why I— BRODY: But there—was there an ESL—English as a second language—program? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Not really. Back then we don’t have an ESL class, and that’s the only class that they could put me in it for English, and I do clearly remember I was in the history class. This teacher—I forgot his name. Maybe Mr. William or something. Anyway, he put me sitting nearby him, but then I couldn’t understand what he said but I can read, so when he give quizzes and test, he’d be just reading out loud and I couldn’t understand what he said, but if he give me the test and I can read it slowly, then I can do it. And then—I don’t know how I told him that I—and then the next time, the first quiz—I flunked the first quiz—the second quiz, and I told him, “I need the quiz that you can give to me,” so he just moved my table next to his desk, and then he just slide his quiz over and let me read, and then he read to the class. And from then on I always aced—make a hundred on the quiz. BRODY: That’s great! (laughs) PHAN: Yeah. But I just take slow for me to read, but then try to hear an American speak English is harder. Even though— BRODY: (both speaking at once) You had a lot to learn all at once. PHAN: Correct. Uh-hm. Chinese dictionary ; cold ; high school ; Richmond ; snow ; Thomas Jefferson High School ; Virginia 1714 Moving to Dallas,Texas for a warmer climate BRODY: Two years in Richmond. How did your parents find a warmer climate? PHAN: Somehow someone—I don’t know how they got ahold of—oh, I remember now. The refugee that we met—a friend that—in Pulau Bidong. He actually came to Dallas, Texas, and then when he talked to this gentleman—we call him Uncle Kee—and then Uncle Kee said that he from Danang, Vietnam. And then when they got to talk and then the friend that—the refugee that live in Pulau Bidong kind of know us too—our neighbor—and they said, Oh, I think I know somebody live in Danang and his name is Quanh Luong, and then our Uncle Kee said, “Oh my goodness! That’s my—I call him ‘brother’! ‘Brother Quanh’!” And then that’s how, I guess, they exchange number, and they call us somehow, and then my dad said, “Oh my goodness.” So he say—and then, my dad told him, “It’s too cold up here,” and then he say, “Oh, just come down here. Just come down here. We find you a place. Don’t worry.” And then, we—okay. Then, my dad just decided to, “Okay, let’s move.” So we told our sponsor, and they were very sad that we were leaving but they understand. So we went to a Greyhound station, bought seven ticket, and just hop on the Greyhound bus and come down to Dallas. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. How brave. And then the uncle met you here? PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. Dallas ; Greyhoud bus ; Pulau Bidong ; refugees ; Texas 1828 Living arrangements in Dallas/Registering at North Dallas High School BRODY: Where did you live when you first got to Dallas? PHAN: It’s funny. When we on the Greyhound bus, the Greyhound bus had to stop at some gas station for restroom stop, and—it’s funny—my dad didn’t come back, and one of the—I guess the passenger say, “One of the China man not coming back yet! You can’t leave!” (both laugh) And then the bus driver wait for him to come back, so it’s funny. Yeah, I remember somehow we made it to Dallas to the Greyhound bus downtown, and my Uncle Kee—he lived in a housing Section 8, one of the government-run Mexican village on Harry Hine. So it’s only a one-bedroom—no, maybe a two-bedroom—a two-bedroom condo, I guess? Apartment? It’s very tiny, probably around 750 square feet, though not more than 1,000 square feet. So seven of us and my Uncle Kee, his wife, and he had two children—a daughter and a son—but the son was very young back then, and the daughter, Van, she’s—we kind of call each other cousin now, so Cousin Van—she’s about same age as Mylinh. And I imagine her dad gave her room to us—of seven of us in her room, she got kicked out. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) She got kicked out. PHAN: And she had— BRODY: (both speaking at once) So there were eleven of you in the house. PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. And we stayed there maybe a week or two or something like that, so we can find apartment to rent. Myself and my three—four of my other three brother, we went to—I think he’s—no, his neighbor—my Uncle Kee’s neighbor have a son that is in high school, so he took us to North Dallas High School to register, so I end up going to North Dallas High School with my other two brother, Tom and Peter, and my third brother, Minh—which is now, he’s Ryan—and Mylinh is younger, so they go to middle school. I don’t know who took them there. I forgot. But I remember clearly, I went to North Dallas High School and registered. (laughs) I went there. |00:33:24| BRODY: As an eleventh-grader, then? PHAN: Actually, yes, eleventh-grader, because I kind of—almost finished tenth grade over in— BRODY: In Richmond. PHAN: Yeah, in Richmond. I believe we also get the transcript. I don’t know how we did all that. We went to high—the Thomas Jefferson, and the counselors—I think, Mrs. Brumbler? It start with a B. I think Bumbo or Bumber or something like that. She’s a very tiny, small woman and she gave us the transcript and it’s not finished. I don’t remember, because we left October or so. We came here in October, I think. The school was already start. apartment ; Chinaman ; Dallas ; Greyhound bus ; Harry Hines ; housing ; North Dallas High School ; Section 8 ; transcript 2057 Memories of North Dallas High School BRODY: So did you start school right away then? PHAN: Yes. Um-hm. I was eleven grade(??). BRODY: (both speaking at once) At North Dallas High School. PHAN: Yeah. BRODY: What was that like, both being new to Dallas and also kind of entering a new high school after school had already started? PHAN: Actually, over here, it’s more—because there are more Vietnamese community, so there are a lot of Vietnamese student already at North Dallas High School. And North Dallas High School, there is mainly—that I believe—maybe 90 percent or 80 percent Hispanic already, but there’s about—my number may be not correct—but there’s African American and Caucasian, but mainly, I think, Hispanic is the majority of the student body. And again, minority of the Vietnamese refugee, and there may be some Laos and Cambodia student there, but the Vietnamese student is—probably had more than the Cambodia or the Laos. African Americans ; Cambodians ; Caucasians ; education ; Hispanics ; Laotians ; North Dallas High School ; refugees ; schools ; Vietnamese students 2136 Friendships, Vietnamese classmates, and Math Club/Meeting her future husband BRODY: What was it like for you in terms of making friends and integrating into those classes? PHAN: Actually, it’s very easy because there’s some Vietnamese student there already, so we became friend pretty quick. And most of us, since English is our second language, but math or geometry is international language, so I was—I always flunked math when I was in Vietnam, but when I came over here, I just got hundred most of the time—an A. I got just automatically got it. That’s the only thing I understand, so easy is a triangle or geometry or trigonometry, and math is so easy. So we excel in math. And I joined the math club, the math team, and then we’d be going with—and then make a lot of friend—students who joined the math team and go to many high school to compete. I didn’t bring trophy home, but maybe a ribbon or something. BRODY: (laughs) But it was fun, you remember. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes, and actually at that high school, I met my husband there. BRODY: Oh, did you really? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Uh-hm. BRODY: How did you meet him? Tell me about that. PHAN: He actually in the same class. We were the same grade. But he’s a lot smarter, so (laughs) he always made the math team. He always brings the—either bring first place home or second at least, but I’m usually the one that have the last one, either six or seven, (laughs) something like that. geometry ; math ; refugees ; Vietnamese students 2265 Working during high school BRODY: So, was he—did you go to tournaments together, and was it love at first sight? PHAN: No. Actually, no. (laughs) I was taking an architecture drafting class. He also taking an architecture drafting class, and he, actually, also working already as a—managing a Chinese movie theater at night, because our community here, we don’t really have a movie theater, and I guess that’s some Hong Kong investment. I guess—I think a few brother from Hong Kong, they rented a movie theater on Fitzhugh and Capital, and they usually have Chinese movie at night from ten o’clock to two or three o’clock, and my husband, Timothy Phan, he actually work as a—selling ticket at that theater. BRODY: Oh, did he? PHAN: Yes. Uh-huh. So he already making money when he’s in high school. (laughs) My first job in America here—actually, this was in Virginia too. My mom was a housekeeper. We work for a cleaning company. She worked with cleaning company, and I sometime help her in the summer. We go to client house and clean, and clean their toilet and vacuum and mop the floor. That’s my first job there too, and when we arrived to Dallas, my first job in Dallas here is, I had gotten to do—a classmate—her name is Lei Lee and, unfortunately, she’s already pass away. BRODY: Oh, no. PHAN: Yeah. She had cancer, so she was pass away probably last year or two years ago. Anyway, she’s the one that find a job for me. We got paid twenty-five dollar working on the weekend, Saturday to Sunday, at the Dallas Market Center downtown. We are in one those stand that selling coke and hot dogs. And the gentleman that hire us, he’s—I believe he’s Jewish, and we call him Mr. Frank. Somehow he got a bunch of Vietnamese student working for him on the weekend. Everybody get paid twenty-five dollar cash, so that’s good money for us. (laughs) Chinese movie theater ; Dallas Market Center ; employment ; Fitzhugh ; Hong Kong ; housekeeper ; Jewish ; jobs ; movie theater ; movies 2465 Parents' jobs and lack of involvement with school BRODY: You were working and you were going to school, and your parents—how involved were they with your school? PHAN: In school part, we had to handle everything ourself. My parent doesn’t speak English, so in term of homework, we had to figure out our own, and we either talk to our friends or—yeah. There’s no such thing as tutor. It’s not like in Vietnam when I had tutor. (laughs) My dad would be working at assembly—electrical—some kind of electrical assembly company, and my mom worked as cleaning staff for a hotel at that big one down here. What’s it called? Loew—back then, they call it Loew Anatole. BRODY: (both speaking at once) The Anatole. Yeah. PHAN: Yeah. Loew Anatole. But now, I think it’s some— BRODY: Just The Anatole. PHAN: Yeah. Some—either Marriott or someone bought them already. She worked there until she retire. She had to clean the room, at least eight room a day. So every time I stay in a hotel, I always put tip. assembly ; education ; electrical ; employment ; English ; English language ; housekeeper ; jobs ; Lowes Anatole Hotel ; parenting ; school 2565 Learning English BRODY: They were working hard, and you guys were in school and also working hard. How was learning English for you? Because— PHAN: Actually, learning English—we learned it for watching Tom and Jerry. BRODY: Tom and Jerry. (laughs) PHAN: (laughs) Yeah. When we came home from school, we just turned it on. We just watch it, and that’s—we enjoyed watching that, and actually, I believe I learn English from Tom and Jerry. (both laugh) BRODY: That’s fantastic. But it must have been challenging, and especially with all of you being different ages, sort of picking up the language. Does anything stand out in your mind as—besides Tom and Jerry—about the process or some of the challenges with the language? PHAN: I remember clearly, in Virginia, we had a phone and when it ring, we all kind of hang around the phone and say, What we going to do? Pick up the phone? And pick up the phone, but then when they speak English, we don’t know how to talk back. And then actually, that phone was calling for Mylinh, my sister, and then she was talking English to her classmate! We were just like, How is she communicate? We didn’t understand. What is she talking about? But I don’t know how she pick up English so quick! BRODY: Well, she was younger, wasn’t she? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. She was about eight years old, I believe. Yeah. And then, we would ask her, What did you talk about? And then, she said, “I don’t know.” (both laugh) It’s funny. When we left Richmond, I think her classmate—her friend gave her a bear, and she still kept the bear. She still have the bear. (laughs) cartoons ; English language ; friendship ; kindness ; language ; learning English ; telephone ; Tom and Jerry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_and_Jerry Wikipedia page on &quot ; Tom and Jerry&quot ; cartoons 2674 Reflections on how knowing a family in Dallas helped to ease the transition BRODY: Aw. Wow. Some of those small kindnesses. Speaking of that—so you didn’t have a sponsor here in Dallas. PHAN: No. We started on our own in North Texas, yeah. Basically—I’m thankful for our Uncle Kee and his wife and his family. Unfortunately, he pass away too. He pass away with cancer, and so is his wife, Aunt Kee—we both—our family went to the funeral for both of them. The second one is only my sister and I and my brother, Ryan, can go. Three of us went to Aunt Kee’s funeral maybe four years ago? Something like that. But Uncle Kee pass away seven or eight—ten years ago. And now, our cousin, I guess—we call her cousin—Cousin Van—we feel like family. She’s live in Seattle now. That’s how we were here. BRODY: It sounds like it made a big difference to have the family members—your aunt and uncle and cousin—to help you sort of transition into this. PHAN: Correct. Um-hm. assimilation ; death ; family ; funerals ; integration ; transition 2763 Phan reflects on religion and her recent Baptism BRODY: Does anything stand out in your mind, other than what you’ve said already, about letting you stay in their house and so on? Small things that made a difference? Making you feel comfortable? PHAN: Well, yeah. I guess we would feel right at home right away. I guess, to me, a lot of thing we don’t plan, and I feel like maybe (begins to cry) God already had a plan for us. It is ___(??). I was atheist and as I became Christian probably ten years ago, maybe? I’m not quite sure, but I remember I was—even though we go to church and try to learn English, and my mom was Buddhist, and my dad is—he kind of—I mean, he’s okay with any religion, so we basically root in the Buddhist religion because we were in Asia. In 2010, maybe around that time, somehow something happened, and then—I kind of feel bad, back then, that I said, “Oh, I do not believe in God. I mean, there’s no such thing. Man—human revolution, back in forty-some million years—there’s no such thing as someone getting born with a virgin.” I just think it’s foolish when people come and tell me those kind of thing. (begins to cry) But I believe God is looking over our family and we were saved for a reason, and I just got baptize— BRODY: You were just baptized? PHAN: Baptized in 2016. Yeah, it was on my birthday. BRODY: Oh, that’s beautiful. PHAN: Uh-hm. I turned fifty-three on that day. BRODY: And you got baptized on your fifty-third birthday. At what church were your baptized at? PHAN: I was baptized at American Baptist Church, AABC—Asian, I’m sorry. Asian American Baptist Church, not far from here. BRODY: So that was a really meaningful— PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. BRODY: —change for you. PHAN: Yeah. My dad actually get baptize before I did. He became a Christian also. |00:50:05| BRODY: So you were sponsored in Virginia by Catholic Charities [USA], but really your family wasn’t particularly religious at that point. PHAN: Correct. My mom still practice Buddhism, but actually, she—God answer our prayer. She’s not baptized yet, but she converted. How do you say those—like, she stand in public to announce that she accept Christ. BRODY: Oh, okay. So she took—made that profession. PHAN: Yeah, uh-huh. Last December. BRODY: Okay. So what role does religion, do you feel like, play in your life and your experience that you’re talking about here? PHAN: Can you rephrase that question? I don’t quite understand. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Well, I mean, was it part of your integration process, or not really much, as you were getting used to being in this country and getting used to school and your family was getting used to work? Did religion play a role in that? PHAN: Not really. Yeah. I mean, I grew up more in the Buddhism religion, but then I’ve declared myself as a atheist probably between teenager until mid-forty. And I’m still learning. I mean, I really don’t go to church every Sunday, but I do listen to as much possible on the radio, and I have friends that are supporting me. Any time I have a question about God and Jesus, teaching about the Bible, I always have answer from my friend. BRODY: Right. So the churches that—the church that you got baptized in is an Asian-American Baptist church. So language-wise, do you—is it English? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Actually, the church practice in English and they do have Chinese Bible study after the service. Mainly, the church is speaking in English. Asian American Baptist Church ; atheism ; Buddhism ; Christianity ; conversion ; God ; language ; religion ; spirituality 3185 Phan reflects on her friendships with Asians, Caucasians, and African Americans BRODY: (both speaking at once) In English, because there’s multiple different types of languages that people speak. When you think about your community that you’re part of, are you—do you mostly interact with other Asian people or are you—do you feel like you have a diverse group of friends and contacts? PHAN: I would say it’s 60, 70 percent Asian, but we didn’t—I have friends that’s Caucasian and African American that I feel comfortable to talk with and email or texting. And my son, he had a classmate since second grade—the last name is Quitman/Kweitman(??)—and my son was the groom-man. BRODY: Oh, in the wedding. PHAN: Yeah, in the wedding this year. And they were roommate together at UT [University of Texas] in freshman year, and I usually—when I make sushi or something, I would make Brady a box for him and a box for my son. (both laugh) And then, I say—I always say that I’m his Asian mom. (both laugh) BRODY: That’s really sweet. So yeah, I mean, tell me about your kids. You have just the one son? PHAN: I have two son, Kenyon and Weldon, and Kenyon—he’s twenty-six now, and Weldon is twenty-two now. Weldon just graduated from UNT [University of North Texas] in music degree, and Kenyon graduated in—I guess, four years ago. They’re four year apart, so he graduated in UT in biochemistry. BRODY: Great. I’m going to stop the tape for a second and see—about one thing. pause in recording African Americans ; Asian Americans ; Asians ; Black ; Caucasians ; children ; friendships ; University of North Texas ; University of Texas ; White 3274 Motherhood and children's identity BRODY: All right. Restarting this recording now. So we were talking about your kids. They’re in their twenties and they were raised entirely here, born and raised in Texas. Do you think they think of themselves—in what way do they think of their identity? Vietnamese? Chinese? Asian American? American? PHAN: They probably think of themselves Asian American because—but then, they know that they have Chinese root and little bit of Vietnamese background. They understand the Chinese—Cantonese language better than the Vietnamese, but they—now, they can distinguish when we talk Cantonese or we talk in Vietnamese. My younger son, Weldon, had a little difficulty to distinguish that, but he’s getting better now. But my older son, he definitely know when people speak Cantonese. He can understand a little, but not as much. When he was little, I did speak Cantonese—strictly Cantonese to him, and my husband—he’s Chinese also, but he’s from Hainan Province, which is an island in Hainan in China. They do have their own dialect, so he and his mom speak to my older son, Kenyon, in Hainanese, so he can switch over quickly and speak to them, and he speak to me Chinese. But then when he’s about three and a half—about four, I put him in a daycare, and that’s when he start to learning English, and we still keep the language until my younger son, the second—my younger son was born. He have a speech delay, so we were told by the speech therapist that we should speak either one language, that we do not mix it, that way—to help him, so we decided to keep English in that, because sometime we do speak English and Cantonese kind of mixed together, so it’s hard. So we just kind of drop the Chinese language in the household and then speak English after my second son was born. And then my older son, Kenyon—he kind of lost. (laughs) BRODY: Right. You don’t use it. PHAN: Yes. Yeah. He lost the language. But then, now, he kind of catching back a little because some of his classmate speak Cantonese at home. So he learn a little at a time, coming back. Asian American identity ; Cantonese ; Cantonese language ; Chinese Vietnamese ; English language ; Hainan Province ; Hainanese ; identity ; language ; language learning ; Vietnamese identity ; Vietnamese language 3520 Phan discusses her own sense of identity BRODY: That’s great. So you think they think of themselves as Asian American. How do you think of yourself? Your identity? PHAN: I would consider myself Asian American now because I’m American citizen, and even though I’m root in China, but I don’t really have any connection with China because I’ve never been to China. (both laugh) But I do learn the culture and the language when I was young, so it still embedded in my brain that I know the language. I appreciate the language a lot, and I feel kind of bad that I’m not good at any of the language because I’m halfway—like, I still have very heavy accent in English, and I’m not really perfectly in speaking in Mandarin. I’m not speaking perfectly in Cantonese. I’m not perfectly speaking in Vietnamese. (laughs) BRODY: But that’s a lot of languages that you know. (laughs) PHAN: Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of halfway in between, so yeah, I guess, if you—like, you have so much water, you can fill up four cup. You can’t fill them all full. BRODY: I see what you mean. So you think of yourself as Asian American as well. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Um-hm. American citizenship ; Asian American identity ; Asian Americans ; Cantonese ; China ; Chinese culture ; culture ; English language ; identity ; language ; language learning ; Mandarin ; Vietnamese language 3621 Transitioning between social classes as a refugee BRODY: Earlier—I’m just kind of jumping backwards a little bit. Earlier, you mentioned that in Vietnam you had a tutor and things like that, but then when you came here, that wasn’t really the lifestyle that you were in. Did you feel like your family transitioned from one social class to another when you came to the United States? PHAN: Yes, definitely. My dad, he’s doing very well as a businessman in Vietnam where he owned a lot of business. He operated restaurant, and then he go through a lot of business selling peanut butter, restaurant, and then recycling—metal recycling plant. I mean, our social status in Vietnam can considered well. We have maids come to the house and take care of the kid. My mom doesn’t really have to do anything. She have a chef that cook for the family. We go to private school, and my dad even have a Jeep—have a car and he had a driver! BRODY: Wow. PHAN: Yeah. He didn’t drive. It’s considered pretty well, I would say. And then we lost all that when we came here. We start from scratch, that my mom start as a cleaning staff at the hotel and my dad working at a assembly. And he—actually, his first job when he’s in America, from Richmond, Virginia, is he’s replacing those batteries for those—is it arcade? BRODY: Oh, arcades? PHAN: Not arcade. What’s it called? Those—like, construction? They have those blinking sign for those cars? They put—yeah. Like, they blocking the road. BRODY: Oh, yes. I know what you’re talking about. PHAN: Yeah. And those blinking orange— BRODY: Reflector lights. PHAN: Reflector light, yeah. That’s right. Uh-hm. He replacing those battery. That’s his first job. He come from—he was a—not a chairman, but one of, like, executive member in a school—in Chinese school in Danang that he donate a lot of fund to the school. They have his name on a plaque. Like, he donated the basketball court equipment. It will have his name on there. But when we came to America, he start from scratch. But he survived well because he go through the World War II from China. He came from China. He left China when he was about ten or eleven, crossed to Vietnam by himself, and I don’t know how he survived. BRODY: Wow. PHAN: Yeah. BRODY: That’s brave. PHAN: Yeah. I mean, his life’s probably more difficult than my life, and I’m sure my children is have a better life than me. My life was much better than for my dad—my dad’s life—so that’s our goal, I guess. We just make our next generation have a better life than us. assembly ; business ; cleaning staff ; housekeeper ; social class ; wealth 3872 Discrimination and racism BRODY: Yes. Absolutely. When you made that transition and your family made that transition, do you remember any experiences with discrimination or racism as you were adjusting to life here? PHAN: There are a few cases, but we don’t take it as offended. That just life. We go through. We don’t hold grudges when people make comment that hurt ourselves. I mean, they just don’t know. I mean, sometime they don’t mean it, and just move on. I feel very blessed that I haven’t encounter, physically, discrimination that, like, a lot of African American culture that go through in the sixty. But I’m sure there are a few, but then I don’t really kept it that affect my life. I just move on. And, like, people will probably say things, so I just let it go and just move on, to me. discrimination ; prejudice ; racism 3963 Thoughts about diversity in the United States BRODY: Earlier, you mentioned your family friends and friends of your children being of different cultural backgrounds. Do you know—what is—can you tell me about some of your feelings around being in a country where you’re meeting all different types of people with different backgrounds? PHAN: I think my difficulty is more language communication. Some of the friend—the mom that I—is Caucasian. I’m sure they very nice, open heart, and they know that I’m from Vietnam, I’m Chinese, speak the language—the dialect, the English accent heavy, but they understand and they reach out, and I feel very blessed that I feel welcome. A lot of mom that I encounter from either elementary school with my kid, to middle school and high school—I mean, very cordial and very helping. accents ; communication ; diversity ; English language ; friendships ; language ; language learning 4045 Meaning of &quot ; being American&quot ; /Emotional reaction to the Pledge of Allegiance BRODY: That’s great. What does it mean to you to be an American? You mentioned you got your American citizenship. What does it mean to say, “I am an American”? PHAN: I’m very proud, and freedom is not free. To me, we are very blessed to live in America, and the freedom we have now, I feel a lot of people take it for granted. (begins to cry) Sometime I get emotional when I stand up, when we have—what’s it called? What’s it called? I pledge the allegiance. BRODY: The “Pledge of Allegiance.” PHAN: Yeah. Um-hm. BRODY: It makes you emotional? PHAN: Yes. BRODY: What do you think about when you’re doing the “Pledge of Allegiance”? PHAN: I always tears up and get—I wish I could sing and say that, (laughs) but I usually tears up. American identity ; freedom ; patriotism ; Pledge of Allegiance 4134 Reflections about memories brought up in interview BRODY: Is there anything else that you’d like to share that I haven’t asked you about or something else that you’d like to add to what we’ve talked about today? PHAN: I’m sure there’s many, many small story that—right now, I don’t have any. But this interview, it kind of bring a lot of joy and sad, and I made of lot memory that’s kind of buried a long time that just come right back, and it’s hard. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for sharing those memories and those stories, and I think that your story is valuable, and it’s been an honor to record this interview and to hear your stories, and I’m so happy that they’re going to be part of this collection. PHAN: Oh, thank you so much, Betsy, to having me here. BRODY: Oh, thank you very much. I really, really appreciate it. It’s been really beautiful. PHAN: Thank you. BRODY: Thank you. end of interview emotions ; memories Baylor University Institute for Oral History Khanh &quot ; Connie&quot ; Phan Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody May 31, 2019 Richardson, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is May 31, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Ms. Connie Phan. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the &quot ; Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans&quot ; project. All right, Connie. Thank you so much for joining me here today. I am really looking forward to hearing your story. To get started with, can you tell me a little bit about what your life was like in Vietnam? |00:00:34| PHAN: First, thank you so much for including me in this project. When I was in Vietnam, before I came here in 1978, when I left Vietnam, I was still a student-- sophomore year. Oh, no, actually, freshman--yes. We left Vietnam in April 1978, and we arrive about four day and five night on a boat. About, let&#039 ; s see, maybe twenty-two- meter boat with about 430 people--refugees, and we--during those three day--four day, we encounter pirate. (begins to cry) Looking back, I feel so blessed because there are so many refugee in boat didn&#039 ; t make it. They got robbed, and woman and kid--either the pirate took them with them when they didn&#039 ; t get any gold, but I&#039 ; ve always been lucky. We only got it second time, and then the third time, we saw a pirate&#039 ; s boat, but then we almost to Malaysia, I think, so they kind of leave us alone, so we made it to a military island--very small, remote island. Doesn&#039 ; t have any--probably a few military personnel, and they help us get onto the island. I believe it was around two or three o&#039 ; clock a.m. or something. It&#039 ; s very dark. We were so glad that we made it. I&#039 ; m sorry. (laughs) |00:03:02| BRODY: No, no. Thank you for sharing that story. That was--I mean, it sounds very scary for you, and you were young. PHAN: I probably fifteen at the time or sixteen. Yes. And I&#039 ; m the oldest of the five, and my sister is about eight years younger than me. Before we accept this plan, my father always want us to know how to swim, so in the morning, four of us--we&#039 ; d just go into the beach and try to learn how to swim with some neighbors, but we all know how to swim by then already. And I was very--I mean, after four and five day, the fourth day, we already lack of food, so we--and be sitting at the boat. Your body is tired. I didn&#039 ; t realize. But then, we are so excited to see the island, so everybody jump off the boat and I said, &quot ; Oh, I can do it. I can swim, so don&#039 ; t mind me.&quot ; I jumped down, and I keep sinking, sinking, sinking! Yeah. I couldn&#039 ; t get up to the top. And then, suddenly, there&#039 ; s a big hand that&#039 ; s grabbed me and pulled me up. I said, &quot ; Oh! That&#039 ; s my dad! Oh, Lord!&quot ; (laughs) BRODY: So your dad was able to grab you. PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. Actually, he&#039 ; s also the one that helping people bring up to the shore. Yeah, so I said, &quot ; Oh my goodness.&quot ; I remember that moment that I look up. It was him. Oh, it&#039 ; s like-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) What a relief. PHAN: Uh-hm. But yeah, those memory is kind of buried in the back of my mind. |00:05:01| BRODY: Yes. You&#039 ; ll never forget that. Your dad, in Vietnam, was he working in some capacity with the Americans who were there? Or what did he do? PHAN: He actually was a businessman. The trip that--our trip, actually, is organized by my--I guess call it uncle? My aunt&#039 ; s husband. There&#039 ; s about twelve or thirteen people in the group that organize this trip, but we had to work with the local government--I guess, police station or something like that, the local--that they have to give them the gold under the table for each person, at least five and half ounces of gold per head, so that-- regardless of old or young, so that&#039 ; s the base price that they have to provide to the local government so they can let us leave the country that we&#039 ; re not prosecute. Most of--I would say 95 percent of the boat are Chinese Vietnamese, which is--most of them are either like me--my parent is Chinese but born in Vietnam, so I guess is considered a minority? BRODY: Within Vietnam. PHAN: Vietnam, yeah. And Vietnamese people--the Vietnamese citizen is not allowed on this kind of planned trip. Yeah. But actually, there are few family is Vietnamese, but they--you can tell by their last names is very distinctive. It&#039 ; s Nguyen, N-g-u-y-e-n, and a friend of my dad or someone introduce him, and they wanted to leave too, so they would ask my dad, would have to do fake paper, identification for them to change their name to someone else, like a more Chinese-Vietnamese last name--either Tran or, like, Phan, or some other name. Actually, my father&#039 ; s name is Luong--L-u-o-n-g. In Vietnamese spelling, for--in China, it&#039 ; s called (??) or (??) in Hong Kong. So it can tell that, but that&#039 ; s more Chinese that was born in Vietnam. They came from China. |00:08:01| BRODY: Okay. So there were distinctions in that. Did they get the fake papers? PHAN: Yeah. So those--I think at least two family were able to escape, but they were very quiet on the boat. If they talk--they don&#039 ; t want people discover that they are true Vietnamese citizen. BRODY: Oh, I see. PHAN: And they might--if they get in trouble, we all get in trouble. BRODY: So they stayed quiet on the boat. PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. Yes. |00:08:33| BRODY: Wow. So you got to Malaysia, right? To this island? PHAN: Correct. BRODY: And what was that like? PHAN: The island basically had no water--no running water. The people that came--the refugee came before us, they dig wells and built a shed. They would go to the--to cut wood and then make the shed, and then use some sort of plastic like a roof. So I guess younger men, or they had the ability physically, can go do that. Like, older person might not. Luckily, my dad had enough--he bought two hundred dollar US that he buried. He put it in my brother&#039 ; s--the shoe--I guess--how-- BRODY: The sole. PHAN: The sole, yeah. He hide it in there, so that&#039 ; s how we got the money and buy a shed for seven of us so we don&#039 ; t have to build a--otherwise, we would be sleeping out on the open. BRODY: On the beach. PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. So that&#039 ; s how--actually, how we had that two-hundred dollar left, because when we encountered the pirate, basically, they took everything--the watches or a necklace or a ring that you have. Yeah. Of course-- |00:10:16| BRODY: (both speaking at one) So smart that your dad hid the money in the shoe. PHAN: Yes. Back then, US dollar, actually, is illegal to exchange US dollar in Vietnam. You can get--you can put in jail for having US money--currency. BRODY: Right, by 1978. PHAN: Yes. Actually, the whole time in Vietnam, you cannot have currency--you cannot own US currency. |00:10:47| BRODY: Wow. Okay, so that was really brave (Phan laughs) that he did that, that he had that. From the camp, what was your day-to-day life like in the camp? PHAN: It&#039 ; s the--I guess United Nation will provide the food for each person. They gave us a bag--like, a plastic bag. Inside, there&#039 ; s would be three can of food. One is a green bean. One&#039 ; s fish or either, if it&#039 ; s not fish, it&#039 ; d be chicken and--what&#039 ; s the other? Maybe red bean or something like that, and a bag of--a pouch of rice that we have to cook. Every person had the same kind of bag. Every morning, we would be had to headed out to the main, I guess, where gathering--just stand in line and get that bag, and that&#039 ; s our food. I guess the water--we just--if you live in the shed, it already have the well built, then you&#039 ; re lucky. Otherwise, you had to go the public well to carry the water, but those were water--the well water just only for shower. You can&#039 ; t really drink any, and the United Nation do provide water for per person. I think it may be a gallon per person or something, and a family--you can--I forgot my younger brother, my second brother-- he&#039 ; s the one that would carry the water for the drinking water and for--so those are for us to drink and eat, shower, those kind of--you have to use your well water. And those-- every day, we just go and stand in line, get those food and come home, and then my mom would have to find way to cook those. And the refugee in the Pulau Bidong, they getting very creative that they need to find fresh meat and fresh fruit, so they do built their own--a little boat, and they would go out to the closer, I guess, bigger city island somewhere in Malaysia. I heard that maybe, it&#039 ; s called Terengganu, but I&#039 ; m not sure, but that&#039 ; s how they go out, and they do that either at night or somehow, not letting people know. And then when they come back, they bring the goods back, and they would have a market to sell it. BRODY: Wow. That&#039 ; s enterprising. PHAN: Uh-hm. But then, we would get in trouble if they get caught. Yeah. The military there, they don&#039 ; t want you do that, (laughs) but I don&#039 ; t know how they do it, but they did it. So that&#039 ; s how we get--sometimes, we would have money, then--people have money, they were able to buy fresh fruit or fresh meat. Otherwise, they would stay with the canned food. |00:14:06| BRODY: You were a young child, right? Like, you were in high school still? Did you have to stand in line for every day for the food too? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Uh-hm. Yes. BRODY: So, adults, children--everybody individually. PHAN: Actually, not every day. They--the shipment come maybe twice a week or something like that. And then, I guess--my memory is, like, we&#039 ; d stand in line getting that. Every time, we like, Oh, the shipment&#039 ; s come! Everybody get outside! Let&#039 ; s go! Everybody had to go down to the center to stand in line and get those. And then most of the time, we don&#039 ; t have anything to do, then I join a drafting class that the refugee camp there--the people get there before and they have teacher that--or that used to be a teacher, so they volunteer and teach the kids, so I joined. I signed up, went to the drafting class, so I was able to learn how to draw, and I brought you that book today. |00:15:20| BRODY: Yeah. This notebook that you brought from the camp--the cover says, &quot ; United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees,&quot ; and you&#039 ; ve got your name on there, and then your drawings that you&#039 ; ve made. So this is how you were occupied during the day, learning. There&#039 ; s some really nice drawings in here, especially--tell me about this one of the docks there. PHAN: Oh, yeah. The bridge of the dock--yeah. I guess it was built--the first one, probably, is a lot older and is more for incoming boat, and the other one is the one that leaving, which is everybody wanted to go on--be on that bridge--I mean, that dock, because that&#039 ; s the one that you&#039 ; ll get to go-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) Get to go somewhere else. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah, yeah. Go to settle at place. You either go to America, Australia, or French, or any country in the European that they accept the refugee. |00:16:28| BRODY: For your family, when did you get to go onto the dock to go somewhere else? PHAN: I believe we--around August of 1979. Yes. And at night time, usually, they would announce the name of the boat, and then the name of the person--the family that gets selected to go. BRODY: Oh, okay. Every evening. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. Every evening around seven o&#039 ; clock, I think. And I remember clearly, at night, we--usually we would get together and sing or--I learned how to sing in English, but I didn&#039 ; t understand what I was singing, (Brody laughs) and now, I remember I was thinking of the songs--something--&quot ; Que Sera, Sera&quot ; ? I don&#039 ; t know exactly which--French, right? BRODY: (both speaking at once) Spanish. (both laugh) PHAN: Oh, okay. So something like that. And then, when we get quiet, when--then the announcement came on one of those--what was it called? |00:17:41| BRODY: Loud speakers. PHAN: Yes, and they have everywhere. Our boat number was KG-zero-two-zero-six, and I think our number rank--is ranked number--either four [hundred] thirty or--yeah. I forgot the rank number. That&#039 ; s--they call it boat number one, two--if you say you come--your number is--your boat number is two hundred, then they know--they kind of know what month you come in. Yeah. So we are four hundred thirty-something. And in one day, it can be twenty to thirty boat, but very tiny boat, and some day doesn&#039 ; t have any boat coming in. So I think the--in April of nineteen eight--between April and May 1978 is vast of boat coming in. The number get--adding quicker, from either four hundred to four-fifty, like to four-seventy-five, so quick. Yeah. When I left, I think it may be five hundred or five-fifty? I&#039 ; m not quite remember. It&#039 ; s been a long time. BRODY: (both speaking at once) So, you had been there for over a year. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Fourteen month. BRODY: Fourteen months? PHAN: Yeah. Um-hm. |00:19:13| BRODY: It changed because you got a sponsor? PHAN: Yeah. We would get interview by different country, and first, we were interviewed by Australia representative, and they will ask--they asked my father, Do you have any other relative that live in other country? And then my dad said, &quot ; Oh yeah. I have a sister in America,&quot ; and then, he kind of, &quot ; Oh.&quot ; He shouldn&#039 ; t say that because (laughs) he actually really wanted to go to Australia. Yeah. And then they said, Oh, okay. Then you had to go to United State, (laughs) so I say, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s how we end up in the United State. But Australia--actually my cousin, which is my dad&#039 ; s aunt&#039 ; s younger sister, which is my cousin--he already been to Australia and he left a year or two year-- maybe a year before when we left in &#039 ; 78, so he left already either &#039 ; 77 or &#039 ; 76. And now he also made it to Malaysia or Indonesia. I&#039 ; m not quite remember, but he made it to Australia. That&#039 ; s why my dad wanted to go to Australia. But it never--my aunt--he had two sister, and the younger sister, when they left before us, she took care of two of my cousin--no, three of my cousin--male, there(??). So a total of four of them made it to Pennsylvania, so that&#039 ; s why my dad just told the representative in Australia that he had a sister made it to USA, so that&#039 ; s why we--okay. Said, &quot ; Okay, you go to the United State table over there.&quot ; (laughs) That&#039 ; s how we end up in United State. |00:21:28| BRODY: So they called your name, and you were able to get on a boat. Where did your family head first? PHAN: We actually--yeah. When we get to the dock, then they would take us to Kuala Lumpur, which is the capital of Malaysia, and that&#039 ; s where we get on a plane. That plane was like a big military plane--can seat five hundred people, I believe. It&#039 ; s called a Tiger, I remember. It&#039 ; s very big plane. A lot of refugee people on that plane, and then I believe we flew to San Francisco, and then we stay in the military camp. I remember our family was given a room. Seven of us stayed there for about a week. Maybe they were making sure that we don&#039 ; t have any infected disease. Then we get to go to our home--I guess, home city, which is the sponsor that sponsor us, and my dad--he had a friend that live in Richmond, Virginia, and we call him Uncle Bac--B-a-c, I think. He is a Vietnamese citizen that a good friend of my dad when they were in Vietnam. I don&#039 ; t know how they connected anyway, but that&#039 ; s--and then, Uncle Bac--B-a-c--I guess Uncle Bac that we&#039 ; d call him back then--he connect--I guess he get in touch with the Catholic church, and that&#039 ; s how they sponsored our family, and that&#039 ; s why we went to Richmond, Virginia. And our sponsor at the time, the church--there&#039 ; s two lady. I remember one of them was Mrs. Ellis--Ellis, E-l-l-i-s--and her husband&#039 ; s Alexander Ellis the Third, and I guess we call her Mrs. Ellis. She&#039 ; s a volunteer and she&#039 ; s very active in her church, and there&#039 ; s another lady that work with her. I forgot her name, but--yes. They both help us to settle. Found a house for us to rent, and I remember our address for the house in Richmond is 2333 West Gray Street. BRODY: Wow. (both laugh) That&#039 ; s a great memory. PHAN: Yeah, and we happened to live on the Gray Street! (laughs) Yeah. |00:24:55| BRODY: How long were you in Richmond? PHAN: It&#039 ; s about two year, and it&#039 ; s--first year, we loved it because we had never seen snow. And we said, Oh, so cool and so nice! Had so much fun. But then, after second year, we said, We cannot stay in this kind of weather. I believe we had to put chains on the tire. It&#039 ; s very hard. And I went to a high school--they put me in a high school-- Thomas Jefferson High School. They put me in tenth grade and I didn&#039 ; t speak any English. I had a dictionary--Chinese dictionary and I carry it with me, and I believe there&#039 ; s already the three Vietnamese refugee already in that school and that they also-- their last name&#039 ; s also Tran, so we just connected right away, and we rented the same house. They lived upstair. We lived downstair. (laughs) BRODY: So immediate community. PHAN: Uh-huh. And I remember, sometime, I left my dictionary in the school somewhere, and somebody find it and they just bring it to me. &quot ; This is your.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s right. It&#039 ; s mine.&quot ; (laughs) It&#039 ; s very funny. BRODY: You need it. PHAN: Uh-huh. And I was put in a English class for mental--well, I guess, not &quot ; mental,&quot ; but it&#039 ; s more talent-challenge kid, like either handicap, or on wheelchair, or kid that have speech problem, so I was put in that class so I can learn English easier for me. |00:26:56| BRODY: So they put you in a special-ed class. PHAN: Dead correct. That&#039 ; s right. That&#039 ; s why I-- BRODY: But there--was there an ESL--English as a second language--program? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Not really. Back then we don&#039 ; t have an ESL class, and that&#039 ; s the only class that they could put me in it for English, and I do clearly remember I was in the history class. This teacher--I forgot his name. Maybe Mr. William or something. Anyway, he put me sitting nearby him, but then I couldn&#039 ; t understand what he said but I can read, so when he give quizzes and test, he&#039 ; d be just reading out loud and I couldn&#039 ; t understand what he said, but if he give me the test and I can read it slowly, then I can do it. And then--I don&#039 ; t know how I told him that I--and then the next time, the first quiz--I flunked the first quiz--the second quiz, and I told him, &quot ; I need the quiz that you can give to me,&quot ; so he just moved my table next to his desk, and then he just slide his quiz over and let me read, and then he read to the class. And from then on I always aced--make a hundred on the quiz. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great! (laughs) PHAN: Yeah. But I just take slow for me to read, but then try to hear an American speak English is harder. Even though-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) You had a lot to learn all at once. PHAN: Correct. Uh-hm. |00:28:33| BRODY: Two years in Richmond. How did your parents find a warmer climate? PHAN: Somehow someone--I don&#039 ; t know how they got ahold of--oh, I remember now. The refugee that we met--a friend that--in Pulau Bidong. He actually came to Dallas, Texas, and then when he talked to this gentleman--we call him Uncle Kee--and then Uncle Kee said that he from Danang, Vietnam. And then when they got to talk and then the friend that--the refugee that live in Pulau Bidong kind of know us too--our neighbor--and they said, Oh, I think I know somebody live in Danang and his name is Quanh Luong, and then our Uncle Kee said, &quot ; Oh my goodness! That&#039 ; s my--I call him &#039 ; brother&#039 ; ! &#039 ; Brother Quanh&#039 ; !&quot ; And then that&#039 ; s how, I guess, they exchange number, and they call us somehow, and then my dad said, &quot ; Oh my goodness.&quot ; So he say--and then, my dad told him, &quot ; It&#039 ; s too cold up here,&quot ; and then he say, &quot ; Oh, just come down here. Just come down here. We find you a place. Don&#039 ; t worry.&quot ; And then, we--okay. Then, my dad just decided to, &quot ; Okay, let&#039 ; s move.&quot ; So we told our sponsor, and they were very sad that we were leaving but they understand. So we went to a Greyhound station, bought seven ticket, and just hop on the Greyhound bus and come down to Dallas. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. How brave. And then the uncle met you here? PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. |00:30:26| BRODY: Where did you live when you first got to Dallas? PHAN: It&#039 ; s funny. When we on the Greyhound bus, the Greyhound bus had to stop at some gas station for restroom stop, and--it&#039 ; s funny--my dad didn&#039 ; t come back, and one of the--I guess the passenger say, &quot ; One of the China man not coming back yet! You can&#039 ; t leave!&quot ; (both laugh) And then the bus driver wait for him to come back, so it&#039 ; s funny. Yeah, I remember somehow we made it to Dallas to the Greyhound bus downtown, and my Uncle Kee--he lived in a housing Section 8, one of the government- run Mexican village on Harry Hine. So it&#039 ; s only a one-bedroom--no, maybe a two- bedroom--a two-bedroom condo, I guess? Apartment? It&#039 ; s very tiny, probably around 750 square feet, though not more than 1,000 square feet. So seven of us and my Uncle Kee, his wife, and he had two children--a daughter and a son--but the son was very young back then, and the daughter, Van, she&#039 ; s--we kind of call each other cousin now, so Cousin Van--she&#039 ; s about same age as Mylinh. And I imagine her dad gave her room to us--of seven of us in her room, she got kicked out. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) She got kicked out. PHAN: And she had-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) So there were eleven of you in the house. PHAN: Yes. Uh-hm. And we stayed there maybe a week or two or something like that, so we can find apartment to rent. Myself and my three--four of my other three brother, we went to--I think he&#039 ; s--no, his neighbor--my Uncle Kee&#039 ; s neighbor have a son that is in high school, so he took us to North Dallas High School to register, so I end up going to North Dallas High School with my other two brother, Tom and Peter, and my third brother, Minh--which is now, he&#039 ; s Ryan--and Mylinh is younger, so they go to middle school. I don&#039 ; t know who took them there. I forgot. But I remember clearly, I went to North Dallas High School and registered. (laughs) I went there. |00:33:24| BRODY: As an eleventh-grader, then? PHAN: Actually, yes, eleventh-grader, because I kind of--almost finished tenth grade over in-- BRODY: In Richmond. PHAN: Yeah, in Richmond. I believe we also get the transcript. I don&#039 ; t know how we did all that. We went to high--the Thomas Jefferson, and the counselors--I think, Mrs. Brumbler? It start with a B. I think Bumbo or Bumber or something like that. She&#039 ; s a very tiny, small woman and she gave us the transcript and it&#039 ; s not finished. I don&#039 ; t remember, because we left October or so. We came here in October, I think. The school was already start. |00:34:15| BRODY: So did you start school right away then? PHAN: Yes. Um-hm. I was eleven grade(??). BRODY: (both speaking at once) At North Dallas High School. PHAN: Yeah. BRODY: What was that like, both being new to Dallas and also kind of entering a new high school after school had already started? PHAN: Actually, over here, it&#039 ; s more--because there are more Vietnamese community, so there are a lot of Vietnamese student already at North Dallas High School. And North Dallas High School, there is mainly--that I believe--maybe 90 percent or 80 percent Hispanic already, but there&#039 ; s about--my number may be not correct--but there&#039 ; s African American and Caucasian, but mainly, I think, Hispanic is the majority of the student body. And again, minority of the Vietnamese refugee, and there may be some Laos and Cambodia student there, but the Vietnamese student is--probably had more than the Cambodia or the Laos. BRODY: What was it like for you in terms of making friends and integrating into those classes? PHAN: Actually, it&#039 ; s very easy because there&#039 ; s some Vietnamese student there already, so we became friend pretty quick. And most of us, since English is our second language, but math or geometry is international language, so I was--I always flunked math when I was in Vietnam, but when I came over here, I just got hundred most of the time--an A. I got just automatically got it. That&#039 ; s the only thing I understand, so easy is a triangle or geometry or trigonometry, and math is so easy. So we excel in math. And I joined the math club, the math team, and then we&#039 ; d be going with--and then make a lot of friend-- students who joined the math team and go to many high school to compete. I didn&#039 ; t bring trophy home, but maybe a ribbon or something. BRODY: (laughs) But it was fun, you remember. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes, and actually at that high school, I met my husband there. BRODY: Oh, did you really? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Uh-hm. |00:37:06| BRODY: How did you meet him? Tell me about that. PHAN: He actually in the same class. We were the same grade. But he&#039 ; s a lot smarter, so (laughs) he always made the math team. He always brings the--either bring first place home or second at least, but I&#039 ; m usually the one that have the last one, either six or seven, (laughs) something like that. BRODY: So, was he--did you go to tournaments together, and was it love at first sight? PHAN: No. Actually, no. (laughs) I was taking an architecture drafting class. He also taking an architecture drafting class, and he, actually, also working already as a-- managing a Chinese movie theater at night, because our community here, we don&#039 ; t really have a movie theater, and I guess that&#039 ; s some Hong Kong investment. I guess--I think a few brother from Hong Kong, they rented a movie theater on Fitzhugh and Capital, and they usually have Chinese movie at night from ten o&#039 ; clock to two or three o&#039 ; clock, and my husband, Timothy Phan, he actually work as a--selling ticket at that theater. |00:39:01| BRODY: Oh, did he? PHAN: Yes. Uh-huh. So he already making money when he&#039 ; s in high school. (laughs) My first job in America here--actually, this was in Virginia too. My mom was a housekeeper. We work for a cleaning company. She worked with cleaning company, and I sometime help her in the summer. We go to client house and clean, and clean their toilet and vacuum and mop the floor. That&#039 ; s my first job there too, and when we arrived to Dallas, my first job in Dallas here is, I had gotten to do--a classmate--her name is Lei Lee and, unfortunately, she&#039 ; s already pass away. BRODY: Oh, no. PHAN: Yeah. She had cancer, so she was pass away probably last year or two years ago. Anyway, she&#039 ; s the one that find a job for me. We got paid twenty-five dollar working on the weekend, Saturday to Sunday, at the Dallas Market Center downtown. We are in one those stand that selling coke and hot dogs. And the gentleman that hire us, he&#039 ; s--I believe he&#039 ; s Jewish, and we call him Mr. Frank. Somehow he got a bunch of Vietnamese student working for him on the weekend. Everybody get paid twenty-five dollar cash, so that&#039 ; s good money for us. (laughs) |00:41:03| BRODY: That&#039 ; s great money. You were working and you were going to school, and your parents--how involved were they with your school? PHAN: In school part, we had to handle everything ourself. My parent doesn&#039 ; t speak English, so in term of homework, we had to figure out our own, and we either talk to our friends or--yeah. There&#039 ; s no such thing as tutor. It&#039 ; s not like in Vietnam when I had tutor. (laughs) My dad would be working at assembly--electrical--some kind of electrical assembly company, and my mom worked as cleaning staff for a hotel at that big one down here. What&#039 ; s it called? Loew--back then, they call it Loew Anatole. BRODY: (both speaking at once) The Anatole. Yeah. PHAN: Yeah. Loew Anatole. But now, I think it&#039 ; s some-- BRODY: Just The Anatole. PHAN: Yeah. Some--either Marriott or someone bought them already. She worked there until she retire. She had to clean the room, at least eight room a day. So every time I stay in a hotel, I always put tip. |00:42:38| BRODY: They were working hard, and you guys were in school and also working hard. How was learning English for you? Because-- PHAN: Actually, learning English--we learned it for watching Tom and Jerry. BRODY: Tom and Jerry. (laughs) PHAN: (laughs) Yeah. When we came home from school, we just turned it on. We just watch it, and that&#039 ; s--we enjoyed watching that, and actually, I believe I learn English from Tom and Jerry. (both laugh) BRODY: That&#039 ; s fantastic. But it must have been challenging, and especially with all of you being different ages, sort of picking up the language. Does anything stand out in your mind as--besides Tom and Jerry--about the process or some of the challenges with the language? PHAN: I remember clearly, in Virginia, we had a phone and when it ring, we all kind of hang around the phone and say, What we going to do? Pick up the phone? And pick up the phone, but then when they speak English, we don&#039 ; t know how to talk back. And then actually, that phone was calling for Mylinh, my sister, and then she was talking English to her classmate! We were just like, How is she communicate? We didn&#039 ; t understand. What is she talking about? But I don&#039 ; t know how she pick up English so quick! BRODY: Well, she was younger, wasn&#039 ; t she? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yeah. She was about eight years old, I believe. Yeah. And then, we would ask her, What did you talk about? And then, she said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know.&quot ; (both laugh) It&#039 ; s funny. When we left Richmond, I think her classmate--her friend gave her a bear, and she still kept the bear. She still have the bear. (laughs) |00:44:28| BRODY: Aw. Wow. Some of those small kindnesses. Speaking of that--so you didn&#039 ; t have a sponsor here in Dallas. PHAN: No. We started on our own in North Texas, yeah. Basically--I&#039 ; m thankful for our Uncle Kee and his wife and his family. Unfortunately, he pass away too. He pass away with cancer, and so is his wife, Aunt Kee--we both--our family went to the funeral for both of them. The second one is only my sister and I and my brother, Ryan, can go. Three of us went to Aunt Kee&#039 ; s funeral maybe four years ago? Something like that. But Uncle Kee pass away seven or eight--ten years ago. And now, our cousin, I guess--we call her cousin--Cousin Van--we feel like family. She&#039 ; s live in Seattle now. That&#039 ; s how we were here. BRODY: It sounds like it made a big difference to have the family members--your aunt and uncle and cousin--to help you sort of transition into this. PHAN: Correct. Um-hm. |00:46:02| BRODY: Does anything stand out in your mind, other than what you&#039 ; ve said already, about letting you stay in their house and so on? Small things that made a difference? Making you feel comfortable? PHAN: Well, yeah. I guess we would feel right at home right away. I guess, to me, a lot of thing we don&#039 ; t plan, and I feel like maybe (begins to cry) God already had a plan for us. It is (??). I was atheist and as I became Christian probably ten years ago, maybe? I&#039 ; m not quite sure, but I remember I was--even though we go to church and try to learn English, and my mom was Buddhist, and my dad is--he kind of--I mean, he&#039 ; s okay with any religion, so we basically root in the Buddhist religion because we were in Asia. In 2010, maybe around that time, somehow something happened, and then--I kind of feel bad, back then, that I said, &quot ; Oh, I do not believe in God. I mean, there&#039 ; s no such thing. Man--human revolution, back in forty-some million years--there&#039 ; s no such thing as someone getting born with a virgin.&quot ; I just think it&#039 ; s foolish when people come and tell me those kind of thing. (begins to cry) But I believe God is looking over our family and we were saved for a reason, and I just got baptize-- |00:49:07| BRODY: You were just baptized? PHAN: Baptized in 2016. Yeah, it was on my birthday. BRODY: Oh, that&#039 ; s beautiful. PHAN: Uh-hm. I turned fifty-three on that day. BRODY: And you got baptized on your fifty-third birthday. At what church were your baptized at? PHAN: I was baptized at American Baptist Church, AABC--Asian, I&#039 ; m sorry. Asian American Baptist Church, not far from here. BRODY: So that was a really meaningful-- PHAN: Yeah. Uh-hm. BRODY: --change for you. PHAN: Yeah. My dad actually get baptize before I did. He became a Christian also. |00:50:05| BRODY: So you were sponsored in Virginia by Catholic Charities [USA], but really your family wasn&#039 ; t particularly religious at that point. PHAN: Correct. My mom still practice Buddhism, but actually, she--God answer our prayer. She&#039 ; s not baptized yet, but she converted. How do you say those--like, she stand in public to announce that she accept Christ. BRODY: Oh, okay. So she took--made that profession. PHAN: Yeah, uh-huh. Last December. |00:50:51| BRODY: Okay. So what role does religion, do you feel like, play in your life and your experience that you&#039 ; re talking about here? PHAN: Can you rephrase that question? I don&#039 ; t quite understand. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Well, I mean, was it part of your integration process, or not really much, as you were getting used to being in this country and getting used to school and your family was getting used to work? Did religion play a role in that? PHAN: Not really. Yeah. I mean, I grew up more in the Buddhism religion, but then I&#039 ; ve declared myself as a atheist probably between teenager until mid-forty. And I&#039 ; m still learning. I mean, I really don&#039 ; t go to church every Sunday, but I do listen to as much possible on the radio, and I have friends that are supporting me. Any time I have a question about God and Jesus, teaching about the Bible, I always have answer from my friend. BRODY: Right. So the churches that--the church that you got baptized in is an Asian- American Baptist church. So language-wise, do you--is it English? PHAN: (both speaking at once) Actually, the church practice in English and they do have Chinese Bible study after the service. Mainly, the church is speaking in English. |00:52:58| BRODY: (both speaking at once) In English, because there&#039 ; s multiple different types of languages that people speak. When you think about your community that you&#039 ; re part of, are you--do you mostly interact with other Asian people or are you--do you feel like you have a diverse group of friends and contacts? PHAN: I would say it&#039 ; s 60, 70 percent Asian, but we didn&#039 ; t--I have friends that&#039 ; s Caucasian and African American that I feel comfortable to talk with and email or texting. And my son, he had a classmate since second grade--the last name is Quitman/Kweitman(??)--and my son was the groom-man. BRODY: Oh, in the wedding. PHAN: Yeah, in the wedding this year. And they were roommate together at UT [University of Texas] in freshman year, and I usually--when I make sushi or something, I would make Brady a box for him and a box for my son. (both laugh) And then, I say--I always say that I&#039 ; m his Asian mom. (both laugh) |00:54:30| BRODY: That&#039 ; s really sweet. So yeah, I mean, tell me about your kids. You have just the one son? PHAN: I have two son, Kenyon and Weldon, and Kenyon--he&#039 ; s twenty-six now, and Weldon is twenty-two now. Weldon just graduated from UNT [University of North Texas] in music degree, and Kenyon graduated in--I guess, four years ago. They&#039 ; re four year apart, so he graduated in UT in biochemistry. BRODY: Great. I&#039 ; m going to stop the tape for a second and see--about one thing. pause in recording |00:55:15| BRODY: All right. Restarting this recording now. So we were talking about your kids. They&#039 ; re in their twenties and they were raised entirely here, born and raised in Texas. Do you think they think of themselves--in what way do they think of their identity? Vietnamese? Chinese? Asian American? American? PHAN: They probably think of themselves Asian American because--but then, they know that they have Chinese root and little bit of Vietnamese background. They understand the Chinese--Cantonese language better than the Vietnamese, but they-- now, they can distinguish when we talk Cantonese or we talk in Vietnamese. My younger son, Weldon, had a little difficulty to distinguish that, but he&#039 ; s getting better now. But my older son, he definitely know when people speak Cantonese. He can understand a little, but not as much. When he was little, I did speak Cantonese--strictly Cantonese to him, and my husband--he&#039 ; s Chinese also, but he&#039 ; s from Hainan Province, which is an island in Hainan in China. They do have their own dialect, so he and his mom speak to my older son, Kenyon, in Hainanese, so he can switch over quickly and speak to them, and he speak to me Chinese. But then when he&#039 ; s about three and a half--about four, I put him in a daycare, and that&#039 ; s when he start to learning English, and we still keep the language until my younger son, the second--my younger son was born. He have a speech delay, so we were told by the speech therapist that we should speak either one language, that we do not mix it, that way--to help him, so we decided to keep English in that, because sometime we do speak English and Cantonese kind of mixed together, so it&#039 ; s hard. So we just kind of drop the Chinese language in the household and then speak English after my second son was born. And then my older son, Kenyon--he kind of lost. (laughs) BRODY: Right. You don&#039 ; t use it. PHAN: Yes. Yeah. He lost the language. But then, now, he kind of catching back a little because some of his classmate speak Cantonese at home. So he learn a little at a time, coming back. |00:58:38| BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. So you think they think of themselves as Asian American. How do you think of yourself? Your identity? PHAN: I would consider myself Asian American now because I&#039 ; m American citizen, and even though I&#039 ; m root in China, but I don&#039 ; t really have any connection with China because I&#039 ; ve never been to China. (both laugh) But I do learn the culture and the language when I was young, so it still embedded in my brain that I know the language. I appreciate the language a lot, and I feel kind of bad that I&#039 ; m not good at any of the language because I&#039 ; m halfway--like, I still have very heavy accent in English, and I&#039 ; m not really perfectly in speaking in Mandarin. I&#039 ; m not speaking perfectly in Cantonese. I&#039 ; m not perfectly speaking in Vietnamese. (laughs) BRODY: But that&#039 ; s a lot of languages that you know. (laughs) PHAN: Yeah. I mean, it&#039 ; s kind of halfway in between, so yeah, I guess, if you--like, you have so much water, you can fill up four cup. You can&#039 ; t fill them all full. BRODY: I see what you mean. So you think of yourself as Asian American as well. PHAN: (both speaking at once) Yes. Um-hm. |01:00:21| BRODY: Earlier--I&#039 ; m just kind of jumping backwards a little bit. Earlier, you mentioned that in Vietnam you had a tutor and things like that, but then when you came here, that wasn&#039 ; t really the lifestyle that you were in. Did you feel like your family transitioned from one social class to another when you came to the United States? PHAN: Yes, definitely. My dad, he&#039 ; s doing very well as a businessman in Vietnam where he owned a lot of business. He operated restaurant, and then he go through a lot of business selling peanut butter, restaurant, and then recycling--metal recycling plant. I mean, our social status in Vietnam can considered well. We have maids come to the house and take care of the kid. My mom doesn&#039 ; t really have to do anything. She have a chef that cook for the family. We go to private school, and my dad even have a Jeep-- have a car and he had a driver! BRODY: Wow. PHAN: Yeah. He didn&#039 ; t drive. It&#039 ; s considered pretty well, I would say. And then we lost all that when we came here. We start from scratch, that my mom start as a cleaning staff at the hotel and my dad working at a assembly. And he--actually, his first job when he&#039 ; s in America, from Richmond, Virginia, is he&#039 ; s replacing those batteries for those--is it arcade? BRODY: Oh, arcades? PHAN: Not arcade. What&#039 ; s it called? Those--like, construction? They have those blinking sign for those cars? They put--yeah. Like, they blocking the road. BRODY: Oh, yes. I know what you&#039 ; re talking about. PHAN: Yeah. And those blinking orange-- BRODY: Reflector lights. PHAN: Reflector light, yeah. That&#039 ; s right. Uh-hm. He replacing those battery. That&#039 ; s his first job. He come from--he was a--not a chairman, but one of, like, executive member in a school--in Chinese school in Danang that he donate a lot of fund to the school. They have his name on a plaque. Like, he donated the basketball court equipment. It will have his name on there. But when we came to America, he start from scratch. But he survived well because he go through the World War II from China. He came from China. He left China when he was about ten or eleven, crossed to Vietnam by himself, and I don&#039 ; t know how he survived. |01:03:58| BRODY: Wow. PHAN: Yeah. BRODY: That&#039 ; s brave. PHAN: Yeah. I mean, his life&#039 ; s probably more difficult than my life, and I&#039 ; m sure my children is have a better life than me. My life was much better than for my dad--my dad&#039 ; s life--so that&#039 ; s our goal, I guess. We just make our next generation have a better life than us. |01:04:26| BRODY: Yes. Absolutely. When you made that transition and your family made that transition, do you remember any experiences with discrimination or racism as you were adjusting to life here? PHAN: There are a few cases, but we don&#039 ; t take it as offended. That just life. We go through. We don&#039 ; t hold grudges when people make comment that hurt ourselves. I mean, they just don&#039 ; t know. I mean, sometime they don&#039 ; t mean it, and just move on. I feel very blessed that I haven&#039 ; t encounter, physically, discrimination that, like, a lot of African American culture that go through in the sixty. But I&#039 ; m sure there are a few, but then I don&#039 ; t really kept it that affect my life. I just move on. And, like, people will probably say things, so I just let it go and just move on, to me. |01:06:01| BRODY: Earlier, you mentioned your family friends and friends of your children being of different cultural backgrounds. Do you know--what is--can you tell me about some of your feelings around being in a country where you&#039 ; re meeting all different types of people with different backgrounds? PHAN: I think my difficulty is more language communication. Some of the friend--the mom that I--is Caucasian. I&#039 ; m sure they very nice, open heart, and they know that I&#039 ; m from Vietnam, I&#039 ; m Chinese, speak the language--the dialect, the English accent heavy, but they understand and they reach out, and I feel very blessed that I feel welcome. A lot of mom that I encounter from either elementary school with my kid, to middle school and high school--I mean, very cordial and very helping. |01:07:23| BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. What does it mean to you to be an American? You mentioned you got your American citizenship. What does it mean to say, &quot ; I am an American&quot ; ? PHAN: I&#039 ; m very proud, and freedom is not free. To me, we are very blessed to live in America, and the freedom we have now, I feel a lot of people take it for granted. (begins to cry) Sometime I get emotional when I stand up, when we have--what&#039 ; s it called? What&#039 ; s it called? I pledge the allegiance. BRODY: The &quot ; Pledge of Allegiance.&quot ; PHAN: Yeah. Um-hm. BRODY: It makes you emotional? PHAN: Yes. BRODY: What do you think about when you&#039 ; re doing the &quot ; Pledge of Allegiance&quot ; ? PHAN: I always tears up and get--I wish I could sing and say that, (laughs) but I usually tears up. |01:08:58| BRODY: Is there anything else that you&#039 ; d like to share that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about or something else that you&#039 ; d like to add to what we&#039 ; ve talked about today? PHAN: I&#039 ; m sure there&#039 ; s many, many small story that--right now, I don&#039 ; t have any. But this interview, it kind of bring a lot of joy and sad, and I made of lot memory that&#039 ; s kind of buried a long time that just come right back, and it&#039 ; s hard. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for sharing those memories and those stories, and I think that your story is valuable, and it&#039 ; s been an honor to record this interview and to hear your stories, and I&#039 ; m so happy that they&#039 ; re going to be part of this collection. PHAN: Oh, thank you so much, Betsy, to having me here. BRODY: Oh, thank you very much. I really, really appreciate it. It&#039 ; s been really beautiful. PHAN: Thank you. BRODY: Thank you. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh009_btba_009.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Connie Phan Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh009_btba_009 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/7e14e7ee2d155fe898b26d12c429c21c.jpg 274fb064bdfe9a04872b61c02a2521ca Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Phong Le OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Phong Le, January 18, 2018 2019oh008_btba_008 1:00:25 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Phong Le Betsy Brody mp3 oh-interviews_le-ph_2019-01-18_bdg_acc.mp3 1:|17(25)|19(21)|38(2)|56(6)|73(9)|89(5)|110(2)|126(17)|151(10)|176(14)|204(9)|213(1)|227(8)|238(1)|252(5)|267(8)|283(15)|297(14)|316(4)|337(7)|352(13)|379(3)|400(1)|408(12)|419(11)|438(11)|459(4)|473(3)|489(8)|502(2)|515(3)|528(3)|539(2)|557(6)|582(10)|604(9)|632(3)|664(6)|681(14)|694(1)|709(7)|723(13)|744(8)|762(14)|780(10)|791(4)|803(3)|825(5)|837(4)|851(13)|868(1)|888(1)|901(6)|912(3)|928(12)|941(7)|955(12)|971(8)|986(4)|1006(10) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117365 Aviary audio 1 Interview Introduction BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 18, 2019. I’m interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Phong Le. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the “Becoming Texas, Becoming Americans” project. Thank you, Mr. Le, for meeting with me. LE: Thank you, Betsy Becoming Texas, Becoming Americans 25 Life's trajectory-from Vietnam to North Texas BRODY: I’m looking forward to an interesting conversation. Just to start out with, can you tell me a little bit about your background, your time in Vietnam? What do you remember of your family’s experience there? LE: Sure.Sure. Well, it depend how much time we have, but I’ll try to give a quick summary. We came to the US in 1975, right after the war ended. Actually, we left about two weeks earlier, before the chaos happened, and it was a group of us that pretty much snuck out in the middle of the night with the members from the US Embassy that helped us get out of Vietnam—or get out Saigon, at that point. But my background—basically, I’m trying to be a very simple person. I came to the US at around age ten, and it’s been a great ride since then. We grew up in West Texas, and then made our home in North Texas, so most of our family members are now in North Texas. I’ve enjoyed travel. I’ve worked for a lot of different Fortune 500 companies, as well as launched a bunch of startups in the North Texas area, helped build the life science community in the North Texas area, and now, I’m currently working with Lenovo, leading the life science solution division. I’m travelling around the world identifying medical research that could help develop new diagnosis and new drugs for the expansion, and hopefully provide a much better, higher quality of life for everybody. BRODY: That’s great. Sounds like an exciting and enriching life. escape from Vietnam ; Fortune 500 companies ; Lenovo ; North Texas ; refugees ; startups ; West Texas 124 Dramatic escape from Vietnam at ten years old/Saving his pet cricket So you were ten years old when—in 1975? LE: Correct. BRODY: And it sounds like it was a dramatic exit from Vietnam. Can you tell me what you remember of the actual leaving? LE: (both speaking at once) Sure, sure. I mean, I think I have a pretty good memory, but everybody have their own perspective and so forth, but the night that we left was quite, I guess, surprising for everyone. From what I remember is that we were woken up in themiddle of the night, and we were just told, “Grab one thing,” and then everybody was shoved into a van. BRODY: What did you grab? LE: I grabbed my cricket. (both laugh) I actually— BRODY: A pet. LE: A pet, yeah, because I—at the time, I loved playing with different type of toys, and we all have our pet—what is it?—dog, cat, or so forth, but I had my prized fighting cricket. I had a group in the neighborhood that were competing in cricket fighting, and BRODY: (laughs) Oh, that’s great. Did you have siblings? LE: I do. There were eight of us at one time, but two younger one—the twins—they died early, and so there’s still six of us ; five boys and one girl. And we all made it out, but it was quite a journey. We were taken a nearby airfield and kind of just waited in the airplane. I think it was a DC-9 or DC-10, which was pretty stripped down with machine gun mounted on the window, and they just kept us there overnight until daybreak, and then we flew out. So it was quite an interesting time. BRODY: Were you part of that group because your family was involved with the embassy? LE: Correct. Yeah. My mom’s sister—my aunt—has connection with the US Embassy, and they basically evacuate as many folks as they can at the last minute, and that’s how we were able to come out together. cricket ; cricket-fighting ; escape from Vietnam ; military planes ; refugees ; US Embassy ; Vietnam 256 Travel to Phillippines, Guam, and Fort Chaffee, Arkansas/Looking for a sponsor BRODY: That’s great. So then, where—you flew out. Where did you end up initially? LE: Initially, we ended up in the Philippines and we stayed at the airfields there, and then we flew out from there through, I guess, a different transport plane, and then we ended up in Guam as the first stage of settlement for most of the refugees coming out of Vietnam. We were there for a few months, and then we got transported to Fort Chaffee, Arkansas right after that. BRODY: So then you were in Arkansas for how long? LE: I can’t remember, but I assume—it was a long, hot summer. That’s all I remember. But I think we were there at least two or three months, because the goal here is to identify a sponsor that can provide the housing and accommodation, jobs, and so forth in order for you to settle in the states. And at that point, you go wherever there are sponsors, and since we have a big family, it was more difficult to find a sponsor that can take on a large group. There were actually two families—my mom and my mom’s sisters as well—so we’re a large group ; I think there were a total of twelve of us together. With that large of a size and trying to keep everybody together, it took a little bit longer. employemt ; Fort Chaffee ; Guam ; housing ; jobs ; Phillippines ; refugee camps ; sponsors ; sponsorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_New_Arrivals Wikipedia entry for Operation New Arrivals 348 Family sponsored by owner of a Holiday Inn in Sweetwater, Texas BRODY: Yeah. So eventually who sponsored you? LE: It turned out we’ve received words that there was one gentleman that actually could take all of us, which was great news, but we ended up in a place that we completely unaware of and unexpected, which is in West Texas in a small town called Sweetwater, a small town of about ten, twelve thousand people. He is the owner of the local Holiday Inn, so it worked out very well for him because he has plenty of room for us to stay, and also, he has jobs that we could work at at the hotel to help with the cleaning and help with the hotel. I remember we did everything from cleaning the pool to cleaning the rooms, so we basically helped take care of the hotel. cleaning ; employment ; Holiday Inn ; hotel ; housing ; jobs ; sponsor ; sponsors ; sponsorship ; Sweetwater, Texas ; swimming pool ; West Texas 402 Experiences as the only Vietnamese family in Sweetwater, Texas BRODY: Wow. Were there other Vietnamese people in Sweetwater at that time? LE: No. We were the only one. BRODY: The only one’s your family. LE: Yeah. It was quite an oddity. BRODY: What was that like for you as a child, to be there in Sweetwater? LE: It was a lot of fun because we got a lot of attention everywhere we went, from the supermarket to just playing in the street and going to school, because everybody wanted to know where you came from and how they can help, so it was a very interesting time. People were very friendly and helpful. We were invited to a different church every weekend, so we basically took the tour. LE: Yeah. It was a very interesting time, but that’s how we survived. We didn’t have anything, obviously, so through the church and through the community and through all those efforts, we were able to get our own place and be able to accept a lot of donation, and start a—or at least, I thought it was actually a very fun time for me. churches ; donations ; friends ; hospitality ; refugee ; Vietnamese ; welcome 473 Reflections about school BRODY: You were in school then. LE: Yes. BRODY: What was that like? LE: It was interesting because we had to dress different. We had to adapt to the community, and understanding what you can do and what you cannot do, and learning how to speak English, so that was probably the most challenging part. So there were curriculum that we did really well, and there are area that we had no clue what was going on. Anything that was science and math, we did, actually, really well, but any related stuff related to English, and then we struggle, obviously. But after about a year or so, I think everyone adapted pretty quickly, so I had a lot of fun. adapting ; English ; English language ; fun ; language learning ; math ; rules ; school ; science 514 Le recounts his mother's egg roll business BRODY: Speaking of adapting, you mentioned having to learn what you could do and what you couldn’t do. What are some things that you remember being surprising or challenging to learn in that regard? LE: Sure. I think it’s just a thing, in general, as a family. For instance, my mom—we’re all trying to make a living, and she’s actually a very good cook, having raised all these kids, so we started our own little egg roll kitchen at home. (laughs) We didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to do that, (laughs) so we basically running an egg rolls kitchen out of our small home. We had an old home with no AC or anything like that. I guess, after about a month, we got shut down, (laughs) but everybody loved it and we had orders from the entire town. BRODY: Who shut you down? LE: It was the Health Department! (laughs) Said, “Oh, we’re not supposed to do that?” I thought—like, in most third world country, you can just buy food off the street. You can just cook off the street. You can sell to anybody you want, so anyhow— BRODY: Did your mom pursue the egg roll business after that? LE: (both speaking at once) No, no. Not at all. No. BRODY: (both speaking at once) No? LE: Yeah. She was too busy working in the garment factory, but it was something that she loves to enjoy doing anyway, and so why not make it for the whole town? BRODY: Right. Right. Sounds like the town enjoyed it. LE: Yeah. So she was just starting to cook for everybody and just little things like that. Things like—you can’t keep farm animals in the backyard, (laughs) so we had a lot of wild animals like ducks and chicken.BRODY: Really? (laughs) LE: Yeah. (laughs) You’re not supposed to do that. Just things like that, but we adapted pretty well. I thought we did pretty well adjusting to the culture and considering, even though it was a small town. adapting ; business ; cooking ; culture ; egg rolls ; food ; Health Department ; rules 626 Friendships and growing up in small town America BRODY: Yeah. So given that you were the only Vietnamese family in the town, your friends must have been all American. LE: Oh, yeah. BRODY: And so what was—tell me about your friendships and your pastimes as a teenager or a child. LE: (both speaking at once) Yeah. See, that’s the trouble. As a teenager growing up in a small town, you do get in a lot of trouble. Most people don’t know that Sweetwater, at one time, was considered the methamphetamine capital of the country because of all the trailers and RV parks, and it was a very wide open area that just made it a perfect area for people to make drugs. That’s an unfortunate part of Sweetwater area, even though it’s a beautiful, nice area. Now, it’s known for being the largest concentration of windmill in the world, and big oil and gas development too, but at the time, that’s what it was known for. We did—from my group of friends, we did get into a lot of trouble. There was a lot of drugs involved. We did a lot of boys’ things. Vandalism is like a regular weekend activity, right? But growing up in that area, I just adapted to just about everything I’d get my hands on, so I adapted really well with all the other kids, and I was pretty good in sport as well, so that helps. But we were constantly getting in trouble and trying to be one step ahead of the law and so forth, so that’s what I remember my childhood. (laughs) drugs ; friendships ; metamphetamines ; small town ; sports ; teenagers ; vandalism 734 Le remembers his parents' transition to life in America/Reflections on shift in social class BRODY: What did your parents think of that and going through the process that they took to get here? How was it for them, parenting in a new country? LE: Yeah. So it’s a—my dad was—my mom—well, both my mom and dad were very strict, and we do have corporal punishment, just like we have at the time in the US, but more so in an Asian family—Vietnamese family, so we constantly get reprimanded quite a bit. You get your butt whipped. You get your hand knuckle whipped or you get your face slapped. That’s very typical things in that time, so that was a very common occurrence, but my parents were actually too busy working to really look after us, which is part of adapting. He had a high level position. He’d been high-level educator in Vietnam, and now he has to go work in a factory, go work in a lumber yard at an assembly line, so it was a hard adjustment. They worked long hours, and my mom did the same thing. She worked at a garment factory for many years, so disciplining the kid and monitoring all these kids running around is actually very difficult. We all did pretty well, I thought. We did enough to stay out of trouble, considering we were on welfare and food stamps, and had to basically take whatever donation we can get, just trying to adjust to the community and also trying to stay out of trouble as well because we all had a lot of goals and desires, and in a small town, there’s not a whole lot to do, so you end up conspiring a lot of things that you shouldn’t be doing. (laughs) But we tried to participate in sports and in bands, and as much academic environment as we can, and that kind of helped us stay out of trouble. BRODY: It’s interesting you mentioned the—sort of the shift that your parents had to go through from the types of lifestyle and jobs that they had in Vietnam, and then to not only be in a new country, but to have—sort of be in a different social class. Do you have any thoughts or do you have any memories around that transition? LE: For me, I didn’t really have much of an impact there, but for my parents, my mom never worked in her life. She married young. She raised a incredible family, and coming here to the US, she has to take her first job and starting work long hours, and low pay long hours. They both did, so I think that took a huge toll on my dad because he came from a well-to-do family, had a very nice, comfortable lifestyle, and had high credential and high position in Vietnam, being a top educator to the top ranked school, as well being a private tutor to the president’s sons and general’s family and so forth, so that was a big change, so it took a big toll on him and he didn’t survive very long. Within four years, he passed away. BRODY: Oh no. While you were still in Sweetwater? LE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. assembly line ; corporal punishment ; death ; discipline ; employment ; factory ; food stamps ; garment factory ; jobs ; parenting ; parents ; poverty ; social class ; struggles ; wealth ; welfare 948 Involvement with churches in Sweetwater/Small town life BRODY: So as the town you were in had so many churches, were you guys involved with church very much? LE: Yeah. We were raised as Catholics, and so Catholic church was the main church that we go to. But because we, being new and such an oddity in that area, we basically accepted every invitation that came and I think we visit almost every church. (laughs) That was a great way to get to know the community, and also that was a great way to get the support that we needed as well. BRODY: It sounds like the town was very welcoming. I mean, some people say that small towns or that Americans or Texans are not particularly open to people who are different, but that does not sound like it was your experience. LE: (both speaking at once) No. Not at all. I think in small towns, people are much more helpful and much more accommodating, and also, we have something that’s unique that gives them something to talk about and give them something to learn about. Whereas, I guess, on the bigger town, they may help you get started a bit, but they expect you to get on your feet within a few months, right? But in a smaller town, you develop a connection much quicker and it seems to be more genuine. Catholic Church ; church ; kindness ; openness ; religion ; small towns ; welcoming 1038 Moving to Lubbock, Austin and arriving in North Texas BRODY: Interesting. So then what brought you here to North Texas? LE: Well, after my dad passed away, we moved to Lubbock, Texas, and continue our education there. And then from then, as each sibling started to attend college, then we start moving to different direction around the county. I’ve ended up going to school in the University of Texas in Austin. And ever since then, I’ve pretty much sprouted out and worked overseas, and worked different part of the country, and now, back in North Texas. North Texas is—I guess we all grew up with high aspiration and looking for better opportunity, and obviously, the Dallas–Fort Worth area has the opportunities that we were looking for, so that’s why we ended up settling here. BRODY: How old were you when you—was it after college that you ended up in— LE: (both speaking at once) Right. Correct. Some of the family member were ready to move to the Dallas area beforehand, but I came back from Europe in 1989 and started a start-up company—my first start-up—in the North Texas area. Dallas ; death ; Lubbock ; moving ; University of Texas at Austin ; West Texas 1120 Developing his first start up company and his strategies for handling learning differences BRODY: Interesting. What kind of work was it? LE: It was a very interesting company at the time that focused on multimedia technology. I came back and I joined a group to focus on developing tools to advance learning, especially for people with learning disabilities like myself, since I’m supposed to be dyslexic and ADD and all that, which is something that’s very difficult, at the time, to diagnose. But at the same time, I found ways around that and I’ve learned how to learn through audiovisual means, versus the standard reading. BRODY: Was that hard for you in school then, in a traditional school? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely. Yeah. BRODY: How did you kind of cope with both the language and the learning differences? LE: Yeah. So my brain works very different than most. I didn’t know at the time, but as I get a little bit older and older, and talked to other people, and diagnosed myself, I found out it’s a gift. It’s not a disability. And I’ve learned how to leverage that—learned how to multitask—so I have what most people consider is a little bit different. It’s like, most people are either the right brain or the left brain ; well, I’m both, which can cause a lot of confusion if you don’t know what’s going on inside your own head, but once I figured that out, I was able to leverage that so I can be creative and analytical at the same time. That’s when I really excelled, but at any early age I didn’t understand all that, so I needed a lot of tutoring. But I did well, regardless. I was on the honor list, and on the dean’s roll, and so forth, so—honor rolls—I’m sorry, honor rolls and dean’s list. As you can see, that’s my dyslexia. (both laugh) But what it does is, it give you a whole different perspective on life and, from an educational standpoint, it takes me a little longer to learn something, but once I get going, I can excel a lot faster. ADD ; dyslexia ; learning differences ; multimedia ; start up company ; technology 1236 Learning English and &quot ; West Texas English&quot ; BRODY: Well, that’s good that you’ve figured it out. So language learning must have been particularly challenging or— LE: Actually, it actually came out to be a bonus because at one time, I spoke five languages, once I learned how it works. But to learn English, it was difficult at the beginning, but then, you— BRODY: Did you know any English before you came? LE: Just a little bit. Not too much. BRODY: So you just quickly learned it. LE: Yeah. We learned, actually, slang English or (both laugh) West Texas English. So you can understand different part of Texas have different dialect, and West Texan— BRODY: What are some of examples of West Texas English? LE: West Texas is like, “Y’all come back now, you hear?” right? (Brody laughs) That’s the West Texas slang there. But West Texas people just slur your words more and we tend to speak a little bit slower. And so that’s what we picked up, but as you start hitting the university level, then you learn the proper English, so my tongue has been twisted many times. (Brody laughs) But also, I’ve learned French, I’ve learned Italian and, through my travel, I’ve picked up little bit Spanish, Japanese, and so forth. BRODY: Wow. That’s impressive. LE: Thank you. English language ; language ; language learning ; learning English ; slang ; West Texas English 1314 Career trajectory and world travel experience BRODY: After college, you came to the DFW area. What were you doing at that time? LE: So actually, after college, I got my first job and I moved to Belgium, working for a Unisys computer there, so that’s where I picked up French on the southern part of Belgium, which is the French-speaking part. I spent a year doing that. Then I came back to the US for a little bit in Boston, New York area, then I went back to Europe for my second internship working in Italy—it’s where I picked up Italian. BRODY: How long were you there? LE: Italy? About six months. And then from there, I came back to the US and accepted a full-time position in New York with Citibank. I worked there for two years, among other jobs. And then from there, moved back to the North Texas area to launch my first company. And like any start up, your first start up tend to be a failure, (laughs) but the network I built and the people I met was invaluable. From there, I move on to securing a position with EDS at the time, which is the Ross Perot Company at the time. Then that company got acquired by HP, but I already left at the time. And then I went and followed my boss to MCI System House, which then also got acquired by EDS/HP, so that was my second time back. (laughs) And then I went to work for TXU at the time, the big Texas utility company, which is also broken up now. Then I continued from there to work for them for a little while, then I had higher aspiration to launch more start-up company, so I went back to get my master in technology commercialization at the University of Texas as well, so I was commuting back and forth between Dallas and Austin. Ended up doing really well and got a job offer to go to Los Alamos National Lab in New Mexico. So I did that, but then after 9/11—did that for two years—and after 9/11, moved back to Texas again because 9/11 pretty much shut all the government labs down for security reasons, also to start focusing again on developing weapon of mass destruction because of the war that we’re getting into with the Middle East and so forth, especially with Iraq and Iran. But no matter where I went, I always came back to North Texas, so North Texas tend to be the hub. I helped build up the North Texas life sciences community here. I launched a start up here in Frisco, did really well there, and helped develop the medical device in life science industry area. From there, I launched other company in other part of the states— but still use Texas as a hub—and did a lot of advising, consulting, and travelled the world, and then now, I’m running the life science division for Lenovo, which is—luckily, I’m still able to base out here in North Texas. 9/11 ; Austin ; Belgium ; Boston ; career ; Citibank ; Dallas ; EDS ; education ; employment ; French language ; Hewlett Packard ; Iran ; Iraq ; Italian language ; Italy ; jobs ; language learning ; Lenovo ; Los Alamos ; MCI ; New York ; North Texas ; Ross Perot ; start up companies ; TXU ; war 1517 Identity as a &quot ; universal citizen with a Texas stamp&quot ; BRODY: So you’ve always come back. Do you think of yourself as a Texan? LE: I think so. I think of myself as a universal citizen with a Texas stamp. (laughs) BRODY: Tell me more about your thoughts about identity and how you identify. LE: For me, it’s a little bit different. I’ve really never identified myself as a Texan, or even a US citizen, because of my travel. Since I’ve travelled so much—been in over fifty, I don’t know, maybe sixty countries by now—I have more of a universal perspective. But no matter where I go, people ask me where am I from and I always say, “Texas. Dallas, Texas.” North Texas—and everybody’d recognize that, right? You can tell in other part of the US, but when you say, “Dallas, Texas,” people know. That, in a way, kind of give me a little bit of pride. So I guess, in a way, I do identify myself as a Texan since I finally bit the bullet in buying a truck. (laughs) BRODY: You bought a truck? (laughs) What color is your truck? LE: It’s a silver Ford F-150. BRODY: I think you are a Texan. (laughs) LE: There you go. When you a buy a truck, you are a bona fide Texan. (laughs) American identity ; Dallas ; identity ; Texan identity ; Texas ; travel ; trucks ; universal perspective 1599 Vietnamese identity vs. Vietnamese American identity BRODY: That’s really funny, but I mean, it raises a interesting point. I mean, you’ve lived in so many places and you’ve been so many places. Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese? As Vietnamese American? American? LE: Yeah, sure. I mean, I get that question asked all the time, and again, because of my travel, I kind of lose track of my identity in a way. I always identify myself as a universal citizen. But people always say, Well, aren’t you Vietnamese and aren’t you American, so aren’t you Vietnamese American? I’ll say, “Yeah, I guess so,” right? But I don’t have a large group of Vietnamese friends, or I don’t participate on a weekly basis or on a monthly basis with the Vietnamese community like I used to in the early days. To me, I just look at myself as a universal citizen, and even though I was born in Vietnam, raised in West Texas—raised in North Texas. But to me, I can relate to everybody. BRODY: Yeah. There’s a flexibility that comes with that, but yet, people will always ask you, right? LE: Yeah. Always ask. It’s like, “Where are you from?” But then, they say, No, no. Where are you really from? I say, Okay, then I got to feed them the full story. But if they ask me, Well, where are you from? I say, “Dallas, Texas.” American identity ; Asian Americans ; Dallas ; friendships ; identity ; Texan identity ; Texas ; Vietnamese Americans ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese identity 1688 Impact of refugee experience on world view BRODY: How much does the—or in what ways does the refugee experience that is your story inform the way that you interact with the world? LE: Oh, I think it’s tremendous. I mean, just, not so necessarily just being a Vietnamese refugee, but I think just being a refugee, period. Why do refugees and immigrants tend to do so much better in the US than, let’s say, the average citizen? And a lot of it has to do with where you came from and the circumstance of how you got here that allow you to be more inspired and allow you to take a look at a problem from a different perspective, which is something that I think most people who are raised in a comfortable environment tend to take things for granted, so that’s something that I have to remind myself on a daily basis, because we do have a very comfortable life in North Texas. We earned it, but at the same time, I feel like it does make us kind of lazy. That’s something that I see in the second generation. I see it in my own kids, which I try to remind them that you can’t take anything for granted. So from that perspective, just being a refugee, period, remind yourself that at one point, you had nothing and it could happen again. Anything that you have can always be taken away from you, so you have to take care of what you have and be more grateful of the things that you do have, and be more grateful and be more aware of your surrounding. That’s something that I think most of us have lost. | children ; flexibility ; immigrants ; immigration ; refugee experience ; refugees ; second generation ; success ; Vietnamese refugee ; world view 1790 Involvement in and observation about the Vietnamese community in Dallas BRODY: You mentioned you not being as involved now in the Vietnamese community as you were early on. Can you take me back to the time that you were involved with the Vietnamese community? What were the types of things that people did? LE: Sure. I mean, on my earlier days, since we are new in a community, you have to bond with your own race, in a way. So you have to go to the church event, you have to go to the community events, because that’s all you knew at the time. But then we kind of expand beyond that, but at the time, we were very close with the church, with the community, we participated in all the events—charity events as well as fundraisingevents and other business events. I used to mentor and I used to tutor and I used to lecture in the community for the various venture that I was involved with. That community is still there, but I just haven’t participated as much, I guess I would say, in the last ten years or so, since I kind of branch out to other part of the world—other part of business, which is mostly predominated by Caucasian, but that’s just the nature of business. But today, I see a lot more Asians being integrated. Same thing with other races too ; whether it’s blacks, Latino, Hispanic, wherever, we seem to have a more integrated community now, so I just don’t see myself standing out like I used to. BRODY: Yeah. That’s a function of time as well as the community itself growing. What words would you choose to characterize the Vietnamese community in North Texas in general? LE: Oh, it’s amazing. From what I’ve seen in the past, when I was involved in the early days, most people have low-level-paying jobs. I was one of the few that actually were doing really well, but I really didn’t understand why they didn’t do as well, but that’s because of their culture. They stayed within their own circle or their own bubbles that they’re comfortable with. They were required to speak Vietnamese at home. They were required to participate in the Vietnamese community. So most of the people at the time have very low paying jobs. They were blue-collar worker. But as the time pass on and generation gotten more and more educated, the community has exploded. I mean, most of the jobs before were either in restaurants or in low-wages labor, but now they’re professionals. They’re in management. They’re doctors, lawyers, engineers, business owner, so it’s changed dramatically, I would say, in the last ten, fifteen years as people became a lot more affluent, more wealthy. You see them have much bigger house, nicer house, nicer cars. So in essence, the community has adapted very well. But then there are new waves of Vietnamese coming in as well that are starting from the bottom as well, so it’s like a cycle that we go through, but— business ; culture ; diversity ; education ; fundraising ; integration ; mentoring ; restaurants ; social class ; social mobility ; success ; Vietnamese Catholic Church ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese language ; wealth 1992 Community connections through food BRODY: Do you think there’s much interaction between the new arrivals and the people who came at the time that you did? LE: I think so. I think a lot of them are still connected through the food that we all share. I think food itself brings people together, and because we’re all looking for the best Vietnamese food possible and the most authentic Vietnamese restaurants possible, we tend to pool ourselves together in those environment. Even for me, I have to have at least a few Vietnamese dish at least once a week. (laughs) BRODY: Do you cook? LE: I try to. Yeah, I try to, but it’s hard to cook for—just for one or two people. BRODY: Well, that just makes me think. When you were growing up in Sweetwater, what was that like? Did your mom cook Vietnamese food every day? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely. Yeah. Every day. Every day. And there was not much of it, so there was no second serving. (laughs) BRODY: Well, was it hard for her to get the groceries? LE: In a way, but we grew. That’s why we had a little farm in our backyard, which we shouldn’t have. (both laugh) She tried to grow whatever she needs in the backyard, and she wanted fresh chicken, so we grew our own chicken. (both laugh) BRODY: Then you found out the hard way, right? LE: Yeah. So we had fresh egg. It was difficult to get some of the items she needs, but sometimes, we had to drive two hours away just to get the ingredient and supplies she need. But yeah, she cooked every day. We couldn’t afford to eat out. cooking ; culture ; farming ; food ; gardening ; groceries ; restaurants ; Vietnamese food ; Vietnamese restaurants 2086 American food BRODY: Right. Were there things that struck you, at the time, as being particularly American things that your friends were eating that you were—that you hoped that you could try? LE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pizza and burgers was actually a treat. (Brody laughs) Yeah. Believe it or not, it was kind of funny because when my dad passed away, one of my friends’ dad owned the local Sonic restaurant, and they donated over four hundred burgers and fries to us. (laughs) So that was quite— BRODY: You’ll never forget that. (laughs) LE: Yeah. So that was like, “Wow!” That was like—that was a treat for everybody, because we had a lot of people that came in for the funeral, and most of them were Vietnamese. Since my dad was quite well known for the time, so people drove in from long distance to attend the funeral, and instead of having Vietnamese food, we ended up having hamburger! (laughs) American food ; burgers ; fast food ; food ; funeral ; pizza ; Sonic ; Vietnamese food 2145 Le reflects on his father's role as a leader in the Vietnamese community BRODY: Why was your dad so well known? LE: He’s the top educator in Vietnam, and that’s a very respected position. BRODY: And the people in the surrounding communities knew that. I mean, when he was alive, did people come and seek out his company and counsel? LE: Oh yeah, so we had a lot of company all the time. BRODY: It sounds like that, at that time, even though you were in West Texas and you were the only Vietnamese family in Sweetwater, it sounds like, in the neighboring communities, there were other Vietnamese families as well. LE: Correct. BRODY: How did you find each other? LE: You know, that’s a good question. I was too young to know, because we didn’t really have internet back then, so somehow, I guess just through mail—just snail mail and just driving, even just word of mouth, that people were beginning to connect with each other. BRODY: Do you think the churches had any role in connecting people? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely, yeah. I think the Vietnamese community definitely—the Catholic church, especially. The Vietnamese Catholic churches definitely helped connect a lot of people. leadership ; Sweetwater ; Vietnamese Americans ; Vietnamese Catholic Church ; Vietnamese community ; West Texas 2213 Church and Religion BRODY: Here in Dallas, are you still attending Catholic church or involved in a Vietnamese Catholic church? LE: Only when my mom call me. (both laugh) Yeah. My mom go to church at least twice a week, since they’re very— BRODY: (both speaking at once) And she’s here too? LE: Yeah. She’s here in Dallas. BRODY: Does she attend a Vietnamese Catholic church? LE: Yeah, yeah. And, as well, American church. BRODY: (both speaking at one) St. Peter’s. LE: Yeah. That one, and also a couple of them in Dallas. She kind of rotate around, but she goes to American church as well as Vietnamese church. BRODY: So now the church is not a big factor, but at the time that you were integrating, that was definitely— LE: (both speaking at once) Sure. Right. Yeah. I think church and religion—at the time, that was really the sole avenue you go to for support. Catholic Church ; churches ; Dallas ; religion ; St. Peter's Vietnamese Catholic Church ; Vietnamese Catholic Church 2262 Racism and discrimination BRODY: Tell me about—you’ve travelled around and you’ve lived in a lot of places and interacted with a lot of different people. Have you experienced any discrimination or racism, or do you have any thoughts on that? LE: (both speaking at one) Sure. I think in the early days, because we were so unique and different, people were just calling us by different names and so forth that, at the time, we didn’t know what they mean anyways, so it didn’t bother us. (both laugh) BRODY: That’s good. LE: Right. We’ve learned a few slang ourselves, so we kind of throw some back to them, and sometimes they didn’t like it either. To me, I just didn’t see that as a problem, but occasionally people would say whatever they need to say just to express themselves or make them feel bigger, but I never looked at that as something that would hold me back. If there’s any racial bias or discrimination, it’s not the one that’s verbal or the one that’s in your face that you’re concerned with. It was the one that’s really behind the doors where decisions are made against you just because you are different. And sometime I do see that, but I never let that stop me from being able to achieve what I needed to achieve, so I always had to work a little bit longer, work a little bit harder and smarter, and just have to get to the right people at the right time. But I can see that. I can see that in the early days, but I don’t see that as much today. Definitely twenty years ago, thirty years ago if I look back, I do see that, but at the time, it was not as apparent to me or it didn’t bother me. But if I were more aware, as I am now, and go back to those same time period, I probably would’ve done something about it. But at the time, you just accept it. buillying ; discrimination ; racism ; slang ; teasing 2385 Parenting and passing on cultural values BRODY: You mentioned you’ve got kids and have raised them here, obviously, in Texas. Tell me about your family. LE: Sure. I have two grown daughter. They’re both in college. What’s different about them is that I did not marry within my own race, so I married a wonderful woman from Oklahoma, raised on a dairy farm, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Brody laughs) BRODY: How did you meet? LE: We met at a club (laughs) and, as it turned out, we were working for the same company at the time, so that kind of kicked things off a little bit. And it was—had the right chemistry, and we have two beautiful daughters and they were both born with blonde hair at the early age, which is kind of weird, but that was not expected. But then their hair got dark as they get older. They’ve done really well and, in the early years, they looked a little bit, probably, more Americans, but now as they grown older, they look a little bit more Asian, so even those transition has been very interesting for them as well. BRODY: Yeah. Can you tell me about how—what your observations of their own experience growing up? LE: Yeah. They basically were raised as American because, since I divorced, when— even though we raised them together, I divorced when they were a little bit younger, and my ex basically raised them the way that she wanted, which, basically, as an American. So as far as I’m concerned, they’re as American as they can be, but we also tried to introduce them to Asian culture as well, but I think they’re much more suited to be a North Texan, let’s say. American identity ; Asian identity ; children ; culture ; divorce ; interracial marriage ; marriage ; parenting ; values 2503 Key values of Asian or Vietnamese culture BRODY: What are the key values that you think are part of Asian culture or Vietnamese culture? LE: I think family is key, but in the early days that was extremely important. Everything you do, you have to think about your family first. But I think, in recent years—like I said, in the last ten years, that doesn’t seem to be as important anymore because people tend to have more choices now. BRODY: Even among the Asian community here? LE: (both speaking at once) Yeah, yeah. BRODY: Just here, or even abroad? LE: (both speaking at once) I think everywhere. I mean, even in China, they had to pass a law that parents can sue their children, because if the parent feel like the children are not spending enough time with them or taking care of them as they age, the parents actually can sue the children now. That kind of tell you how much has changed, and that goes with economics. As the economies get better and better, people get more and more busy, and they have more and more choices. They rather spend time with people in their own age or their own interest, so family is not really on the top of their priority list, unless it’s holidays time. So I began to see that everywhere as well, and I think that’s just the natural cycle of life. BRODY: So family is a key value but kind of, maybe, diminishing. LE: I think so. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Are there any other values that you think would characterize Vietnamese culture? LE: Food, definitely. Before, everybody cook, so that was something that you could share among family, so you spent a lot of time cooking together and eating together, and I think that’s been diminished as well. We have more and more options now. We have more and more restaurants that are open where they go out to eat, versus cook at home, so I think that’s diminishing as well—at least, in my family. My mom, she try to cook for everybody at least once or twice a month, but before, you were doing it every day. So that doesn’t happen anymore because you’re so busy now. I think that’s changing too, and that’s the bond that you used to have which is beginning to fade away. Asian values ; China ; cooking ; culture ; family ; food ; restaurants ; Vietnamese values 2637 Reflections on writing a book about his life BRODY: I was thinking about some of the—the whole path that you took here, and I know that you’ve written a book, and thank you so much for sharing that. Can you tell me what drove you write your book and, sort of, what it contains? LE: Right. Right. Yeah, I’ve kind of live a pretty fast life. (laugh) The book was published in 2006 and I was about only forty at the time, and it took me long—even though it’s a short book, but it’s very straight to the point—a little bit too much of the truth, which scare a lot of people. LE: In other words, it has subjects in there that most people are afraid to talk about, especially at the time when the internet was just taking off. Now, it’s no big deal, but the content of the book still hold truth, which kind of surprising for me, but for someone that’s only forty years old and haven’t had a whole lot of experience in life, but yet had enough, or at least more than the average person, that people are willing to want to read it. But the book covers topics that deals with sex, love, marriage, gambling, business, entrepreneurship, finding balance, spirituality, religion, and so forth. I guess I’m just a fast learner in a way. I’ve had a lot of experience even at the time, and I’ve done a lot more since then. But in essence, the content and the book laid the foundation for the life that I hope that my kids can relate, because I didn’t have a father growing up—he passed away young—so a lot of us has to learn things our own way, so we created our own niche, we’ve made things work, and I was hoping to leave a legacy for my kids. And a lot of people also wanted to know: how can I be able to do all this in such a short period of time? Well, I was only forty, so a lot of people thought that a lot of these were all made up. But I’m a dual brainer, so my brain is on all the time, even though—when I’m sleeping, I do a lot of lucid dreaming, so my brain is constantly working and I solve problems that a lot of people can’t solve, so there’s not really anything that is impossible. It’s just, what can you imagine? What can your mind allow you to imagine? There’s so much to be discovered still, and I just got a jumpstart on that, and I continue to help solve problem that most people can’t solve. So that’s what I want to leave behind for my kids. It started out as more of a manuscript, and then people start asking more and more about it, and then I started adding other topics in. But I think at the time, it was really to help my kid understand why I did what I did so that they don’t have to repeat the same mistake, and they can also use that platform to grow upon. And as it turned out, it help a lot of college students. BRODY: Really? LE: Yeah. I still get a lot of thank-you notes from college students and college graduates who’ve taken some of the advice and move on to their careers and saw what I predicted come to reality. BRODY: What did you predict? LE: Half the book—the stuff I wrote in my book actually came true already in just prediction of where technology is heading, and the society that we’re living in and how you can make it better. |00:47:36| BRODY: The title of the book is Living in Paradox. What is the paradox you’re referring to there? LE: Well, life is a paradox, if you haven’t figured that out yet, (laughs) but most people believe in right or wrong or believe there’s only one way of doing certain things, but life is a paradox. We are constantly in conflict. We’re constantly contradicting ourself. We’re constantly contradicting each other, and that’s why we have all these conflicts, and we have to find a compromise. So there are no rights or wrong, at least from my perspective. It is whatever we make of it. Rules change. Why do rules change? Because we decided it’s okay today but then not okay tomorrow, and then with time we switch it back. Take marijuana as a perfect example. Why is it legal in some states, and not legal in the other? We live in the same country, right? That’s just one example. Life is a paradox, and if you understand what are those environment are so that you can allow yourself to understand the left and the right, the black and the white, then you can decide which side you want to stand on and understand why, or maybe just find a gray area and find that balance, which is something that very difficult for us to achieve—for most of us to achieve, and so it’s something we have to work on on a daily basis. BRODY: What do you mean? advice ; book ; legacy ; predictions ; problem-solving ; technology 2940 Links between his experiences and his flexible mindset/philosophy about life BRODY: That sounds like the same kind of flexibility you were talking about earlier. How much do you think your own story, your own experiences has contributed to your sort of flexible mindset? LE: Well, I think experience—when we’re young, we’re selfishly motivated, so we want to do things our way because we want to prove ourself. But as you gain more and more experience, you realize you don’t know as much as you thought. And then we can get a lot of knowledge from the internet—you can google anything you want—but the wisdom is missing. Very few of us can actually connect the dots. We can regurgitate a lot of stuff that we live and read about, but until you actually have that experience—two person can have the same experience, and they’ll give you two different perspective, right? So it’s extremely important that you understand yourself, and then understand how to express yourself in the environment that you want to live in. But if you’re incapable of adapting to that environment, it’s okay too. You just have to create your own environment. I’ve been pretty lucky at being able to adapt in all situation, and I continue to push myself to explore what I’m capable of and not forget what’s the most important things in life. BRODY: What do you think the most important things in life are? LE: (laughs) Oh my god. For me? (laughs) BRODY: Yes. (laughs) LE: The most important thing for me is really to have the best experience I could possibly have without hurting myself or people around me. (both laugh) BRODY: Fair enough. LE: Yeah. Life is all about the experience. I could give you the philosophical perspective as well, but we may not have time for that today. (laughs) BRODY: Go ahead. (laughs) I would love to hear it. LE: This life as you know it is what nature intend for us to do, and then this is life as you know it is what society intend for you to do. So what nature intend for us to do is basically just to reproduce, replicate. That’s really—so if you ask someone, “What is the meaning of life?” They could give you all kind of answer, but in reality, there’s only one meaning of life which is reproduction, replication. If you look at all DNA program, and that’s really the area that I work in—is in genomic research, leveraging AI and supercomputers to do that—there’s only one purpose in life, and that’s to replicate. And then whatever you want to surround yourself with to support that mechanism, that’s what organic life is designed to do. If we don’t replicate, we die, so that’s why DNA program only does one thing and it does it pretty well. It makes a lot of copies, and it trying to seduce other host to support your replication. That’s why we have viruses, bacteria, and why we have different species, and male, female, and so forth, but in reality, it’s only one program ; it’s to replicate. But then you have life for society as well, and society support that whole process, so we build a society that will allow you to replicate faster and better, and that’s why we have more people living today than we ever had combined in the history of the world. So we’ve done a very good job at that. BRODY: At that, yes. LE: So that’s really the purpose of life, and once we expend this planet, then we go to the other planet. (laughs) Take it with a—but in reality, I think the other part is—to life—is the consciousness, is that the side effect of life, now, is consciousness, is that we became aware of what nature intend for us to do, and we’re trying to change nature. We’re redesigning nature right now. That’s why we no longer live in the wilderness. We live in a concrete world. We live in a sterile world. We can’t go back. Our immune system has been compromised, so that’s why we get so sick so easy once we get outside of our environment, because we sterilize our environment. We’re rewriting the program. We’re re-editing our genome. We’re changing our own self to be able to, again, replicate even better. We got designer babies now. In essence, we’re constantly in conflict between our physical and mental aspect, is that the physical side—nature already programmed it for us. Now it’s our awareness. What do we want to do? Do we want to follow nature’s rules or do we want to redesign it? That’s awareness. BRODY: Interesting. Sounds like a lot to think about, for sure. LE: Most of us don’t want to think about it. It’s too complicated. We just want our food, football, and TV. (both laugh) adaptation ; experience ; flexibility ; nature ; philosophy 3259 Politics BRODY: Yeah. There’s—and this kind of makes me think about this other area that we haven’t talked about yet. You’ve described what society wants and sort of the expectations of that. Where does politics fit into that? Are you engaged with politics, either—I know you think of yourself as a universal citizen, so does that make you more engaged at the global level or the local level or both? LE: I try not to, and I used to volunteer and help deliver message, and used to pass out pamphlets and leaflet and so forth, but I don’t do it anymore because, just from a personal level, if there’s something that I can change and control, I will do it. I just don’t feel like we’re in control of this big machine anymore, so I try to just do what I can within my own little community. From a bigger perspective, we need an overhaul. For a political perspective, the system that gotten us here no longer works, and that’s why we have so much disarray right now in Washington. Not just in the US, but look at the UK, for instance, with Brexit, and all the other country that can’t seem to get along anymore because their population has been diversified now, so the old system—the old model— doesn’t work anymore. It’s almost like having the tax system that’s been so outdated that there’s so many loopholes in it that you basically have to revamp it. In that perspective, these changes will not come overnight, and that’s just something that we all have to continue to pursue, and I think technology will help to get us there. It’s sometimes better just to start from scratch, so look at another example, like electric vehicles. Tesla’s taking the lead on that—or space travel. Those are the kind of things that has to happen in order for us to wake up and get rid of the old model, and be able to get out of our comfort zone. But right now, I think we’re not there yet, so I try to stay away from it. (laughs) BRODY: Yeah. Well—and even—do you keep up with Vietnamese politics at all? LE: Some. Not much. Only because of the business I do. Right now, I mean, we look at what’s going on in Asia, especially with China and Vietnam, and with communism and socialism and capitalism all mixed into one, so that’s actually working really well, right? So you don’t have to have just communism. You just have to apply communism when you need to, apply socialism when you need to, and apply capitalism when you need to— whereas we think about just, Capitalism, capitalism, capitalism. Well, that’s not a sustainable model. American politics ; Brexit ; capitalism ; China ; communism ; politics ; socialism ; technology ; Vietnamese politics ; volunteer 3438 What does it mean to be American? BRODY: When you’re thinking about yourself and your kids and the people who are in your community, do you think of yourselves as American? Do you think of yourself as American? And if so or if not, what do you think it means to be American or to say that you’re American? LE: Yeah. When I travel, I get asked a lot of question like, “Where are you from?” and, “Oh, you’re Americans, right?” And I say, “Oh, yeah.” Even when I hear a side conversation, even though I’m not born in the US—but what is the US? The US is made up of refugees and immigrants, right? So some of us are born here, some of them are not, but in essence, if you pay your taxes, you’re an American. (both laugh) BRODY: It’s that simple. LE: It’s that simple, yeah! There’s no way about it. What is American? Being an American is the ability to have the freedom that we’ve earned. We pay for it. We sacrifice ourself for it. Freedom, the ability to express yourself, the ability to do whatever is needed to provide for your family in a way where you’re not restricted like most countries. As much as I like to travel and enjoy all the culture around the world, I still like coming home to North Texas because to me, there’s no other place in the world that I’ve seen that has the best quality of life. I mean, everywhere else, there’s things you can do, there’s things you cannot do, whereas, here, in Texas, especially North Texas, we can do just about anything we want as long as we don’t hurt ourself and other people. We have more opportunities here than anywhere else. You can launch a start-up any time you want. You can create and express yourself anyway you want. I always feel very blessed and grateful every time I come home. We have a beautiful airport. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Yeah, so this is home. LE: Yeah. We have a beautiful airport. We got lots of land. You can actually see the sunset. (laughs) The air is better than most. We complain our air quality here but, boy, have you been to China? (both laugh) American identity ; business ; food stamps ; freedom ; identity ; immigrants ; opportunity ; refugees ; start up companies ; success ; taxes ; Texas ; welfare Baylor University Institute for Oral History Phong Hung Le Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody January 18, 2019 Richardson, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 18, 2019. I&#039 ; m interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Phong Le. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the &quot ; Becoming Texas, Becoming Americans&quot ; project. Thank you, Mr. Le, for meeting with me. LE: Thank you, Betsy. |00:00:23| BRODY: I&#039 ; m looking forward to an interesting conversation. Just to start out with, can you tell me a little bit about your background, your time in Vietnam? What do you remember of your family&#039 ; s experience there? LE: Sure. Sure. Well, it depend how much time we have, but I&#039 ; ll try to give a quick summary. We came to the US in 1975, right after the war ended. Actually, we left about two weeks earlier, before the chaos happened, and it was a group of us that pretty much snuck out in the middle of the night with the members from the US Embassy that helped us get out of Vietnam--or get out Saigon, at that point. But my background--basically, I&#039 ; m trying to be a very simple person. I came to the US at around age ten, and it&#039 ; s been a great ride since then. We grew up in West Texas, and then made our home in North Texas, so most of our family members are now in North Texas. I&#039 ; ve enjoyed travel. I&#039 ; ve worked for a lot of different Fortune 500 companies, as well as launched a bunch of start- ups in the North Texas area, helped build the life science community in the North Texas area, and now, I&#039 ; m currently working with Lenovo, leading the life science solution division. I&#039 ; m travelling around the world identifying medical research that could help develop new diagnosis and new drugs for the expansion, and hopefully provide a much better, higher quality of life for everybody. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. Sounds like an exciting and enriching life. So you were ten years old when--in 1975? LE: Correct. |00:02:09| BRODY: And it sounds like it was a dramatic exit from Vietnam. Can you tell me what you remember of the actual leaving? LE: (both speaking at once) Sure, sure. I mean, I think I have a pretty good memory, but everybody have their own perspective and so forth, but the night that we left was quite, I guess, surprising for everyone. From what I remember is that we were woken up in the middle of the night, and we were just told, &quot ; Grab one thing,&quot ; and then everybody was shoved into a van. BRODY: What did you grab? LE: I grabbed my cricket. (both laugh) I actually-- BRODY: A pet. LE: A pet, yeah, because I--at the time, I loved playing with different type of toys, and we all have our pet--what is it?--dog, cat, or so forth, but I had my prized fighting cricket. I had a group in the neighborhood that were competing in cricket fighting, and mine was the champion, which I kept, so that&#039 ; s the first thing I grabbed--my cricket box. |00:03:17| BRODY: (laughs) Oh, that&#039 ; s great. Did you have siblings? LE: I do. There were eight of us at one time, but two younger one--the twins--they died early, and so there&#039 ; s still six of us ; five boys and one girl. And we all made it out, but it was quite a journey. We were taken a nearby airfield and kind of just waited in the airplane. I think it was a DC-9 or DC-10, which was pretty stripped down with machine gun mounted on the window, and they just kept us there overnight until daybreak, and then we flew out. So it was quite an interesting time. BRODY: Were you part of that group because your family was involved with the embassy? LE: Correct. Yeah. My mom&#039 ; s sister--my aunt--has connection with the US Embassy, and they basically evacuate as many folks as they can at the last minute, and that&#039 ; s how we were able to come out together. |00:04:15| BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. So then, where--you flew out. Where did you end up initially? LE: Initially, we ended up in the Philippines and we stayed at the airfields there, and then we flew out from there through, I guess, a different transport plane, and then we ended up in Guam as the first stage of settlement for most of the refugees coming out of Vietnam. We were there for a few months, and then we got transported to Fort Chaffee, Arkansas right after that. BRODY: So then you were in Arkansas for how long? LE: I can&#039 ; t remember, but I assume--it was a long, hot summer. That&#039 ; s all I remember. But I think we were there at least two or three months, because the goal here is to identify a sponsor that can provide the housing and accommodation, jobs, and so forth in order for you to settle in the states. And at that point, you go wherever there are sponsors, and since we have a big family, it was more difficult to find a sponsor that can take on a large group. There were actually two families--my mom and my mom&#039 ; s sisters as well--so we&#039 ; re a large group ; I think there were a total of twelve of us together. With that large of a size and trying to keep everybody together, it took a little bit longer. BRODY: Yeah. So eventually who sponsored you? LE: It turned out we&#039 ; ve received words that there was one gentleman that actually could take all of us, which was great news, but we ended up in a place that we completely unaware of and unexpected, which is in West Texas in a small town called Sweetwater, a small town of about ten, twelve thousand people. He is the owner of the local Holiday Inn, so it worked out very well for him because he has plenty of room for us to stay, and also, he has jobs that we could work at at the hotel to help with the cleaning and help with the hotel. I remember we did everything from cleaning the pool to cleaning the rooms, so we basically helped take care of the hotel. BRODY: Wow. Were there other Vietnamese people in Sweetwater at that time? LE: No. We were the only one. BRODY: The only one&#039 ; s your family. LE: Yeah. It was quite an oddity. |00:06:49| BRODY: What was that like for you as a child, to be there in Sweetwater? LE: It was a lot of fun because we got a lot of attention everywhere we went, from the supermarket to just playing in the street and going to school, because everybody wanted to know where you came from and how they can help, so it was a very interesting time. People were very friendly and helpful. We were invited to a different church every weekend, so we basically took the tour. BRODY: (laughs) It sounds like it was a very supportive settlement. LE: Yeah. It was a very interesting time, but that&#039 ; s how we survived. We didn&#039 ; t have anything, obviously, so through the church and through the community and through all those efforts, we were able to get our own place and be able to accept a lot of donation, and start a--or at least, I thought it was actually a very fun time for me. |00:07:52| BRODY: You were in school then. LE: Yes. BRODY: What was that like? LE: It was interesting because we had to dress different. We had to adapt to the community, and understanding what you can do and what you cannot do, and learning how to speak English, so that was probably the most challenging part. So there were curriculum that we did really well, and there are area that we had no clue what was going on. Anything that was science and math, we did, actually, really well, but any related stuff related to English, and then we struggle, obviously. But after about a year or so, I think everyone adapted pretty quickly, so I had a lot of fun. BRODY: Speaking of adapting, you mentioned having to learn what you could do and what you couldn&#039 ; t do. What are some things that you remember being surprising or challenging to learn in that regard? LE: Sure. I think it&#039 ; s just a thing, in general, as a family. For instance, my mom--we&#039 ; re all trying to make a living, and she&#039 ; s actually a very good cook, having raised all these kids, so we started our own little egg roll kitchen at home. (laughs) We didn&#039 ; t know that you weren&#039 ; t supposed to do that, (laughs) so we basically running an egg rolls kitchen out of our small home. We had an old home with no AC or anything like that. I guess, after about a month, we got shut down, (laughs) but everybody loved it and we had orders from the entire town. BRODY: Who shut you down? LE: It was the Health Department! (laughs) Said, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re not supposed to do that?&quot ; I thought--like, in most third world country, you can just buy food off the street. You can just cook off the street. You can sell to anybody you want, so anyhow-- BRODY: Did your mom pursue the egg roll business after that? LE: (both speaking at once) No, no. Not at all. No. BRODY: (both speaking at once) No? |00:09:40| LE: Yeah. She was too busy working in the garment factory, but it was something that she loves to enjoy doing anyway, and so why not make it for the whole town? BRODY: Right. Right. Sounds like the town enjoyed it. LE: Yeah. So she was just starting to cook for everybody and just little things like that. Things like--you can&#039 ; t keep farm animals in the backyard, (laughs) so we had a lot of wild animals like ducks and chicken. BRODY: Really? (laughs) LE: Yeah. (laughs) You&#039 ; re not supposed to do that. Just things like that, but we adapted pretty well. I thought we did pretty well adjusting to the culture and considering, even though it was a small town. BRODY: Yeah. So given that you were the only Vietnamese family in the town, your friends must have been all American. LE: Oh, yeah. |00:10:38| BRODY: And so what was--tell me about your friendships and your pastimes as a teenager or a child. LE: (both speaking at once) Yeah. See, that&#039 ; s the trouble. As a teenager growing up in a small town, you do get in a lot of trouble. Most people don&#039 ; t know that Sweetwater, at one time, was considered the methamphetamine capital of the country because of all the trailers and RV parks, and it was a very wide open area that just made it a perfect area for people to make drugs. That&#039 ; s an unfortunate part of Sweetwater area, even though it&#039 ; s a beautiful, nice area. Now, it&#039 ; s known for being the largest concentration of windmill in the world, and big oil and gas development too, but at the time, that&#039 ; s what it was known for. We did--from my group of friends, we did get into a lot of trouble. There was a lot of drugs involved. We did a lot of boys&#039 ; things. Vandalism is like a regular weekend activity, right? But growing up in that area, I just adapted to just about everything I&#039 ; d get my hands on, so I adapted really well with all the other kids, and I was pretty good in sport as well, so that helps. But we were constantly getting in trouble and trying to be one step ahead of the law and so forth, so that&#039 ; s what I remember my childhood. (laughs) |00:12:13| BRODY: What did your parents think of that and going through the process that they took to get here? How was it for them, parenting in a new country? LE: Yeah. So it&#039 ; s a--my dad was--my mom--well, both my mom and dad were very strict, and we do have corporal punishment, just like we have at the time in the US, but more so in an Asian family--Vietnamese family, so we constantly get reprimanded quite a bit. You get your butt whipped. You get your hand knuckle whipped or you get your face slapped. That&#039 ; s very typical things in that time, so that was a very common occurrence, but my parents were actually too busy working to really look after us, which is part of adapting. He had a high level position. He&#039 ; d been high-level educator in Vietnam, and now he has to go work in a factory, go work in a lumber yard at an assembly line, so it was a hard adjustment. They worked long hours, and my mom did the same thing. She worked at a garment factory for many years, so disciplining the kid and monitoring all these kids running around is actually very difficult. We all did pretty well, I thought. We did enough to stay out of trouble, considering we were on welfare and food stamps, and had to basically take whatever donation we can get, just trying to adjust to the community and also trying to stay out of trouble as well because we all had a lot of goals and desires, and in a small town, there&#039 ; s not a whole lot to do, so you end up conspiring a lot of things that you shouldn&#039 ; t be doing. (laughs) But we tried to participate in sports and in bands, and as much academic environment as we can, and that kind of helped us stay out of trouble. BRODY: It&#039 ; s interesting you mentioned the--sort of the shift that your parents had to go through from the types of lifestyle and jobs that they had in Vietnam, and then to not only be in a new country, but to have--sort of be in a different social class. Do you have any thoughts or do you have any memories around that transition? LE: For me, I didn&#039 ; t really have much of an impact there, but for my parents, my mom never worked in her life. She married young. She raised a incredible family, and coming here to the US, she has to take her first job and starting work long hours, and low pay long hours. They both did, so I think that took a huge toll on my dad because he came from a well-to-do family, had a very nice, comfortable lifestyle, and had high credential and high position in Vietnam, being a top educator to the top ranked school, as well being a private tutor to the president&#039 ; s sons and general&#039 ; s family and so forth, so that was a big change, so it took a big toll on him and he didn&#039 ; t survive very long. Within four years, he passed away. BRODY: Oh no. While you were still in Sweetwater? LE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. |00:15:45| BRODY: Oh. I&#039 ; m sorry to hear that. So as the town you were in had so many churches, were you guys involved with church very much? LE: Yeah. We were raised as Catholics, and so Catholic church was the main church that we go to. But because we, being new and such an oddity in that area, we basically accepted every invitation that came and I think we visit almost every church. (laughs) That was a great way to get to know the community, and also that was a great way to get the support that we needed as well. BRODY: It sounds like the town was very welcoming. I mean, some people say that small towns or that Americans or Texans are not particularly open to people who are different, but that does not sound like it was your experience. LE: (both speaking at once) No. Not at all. I think in small towns, people are much more helpful and much more accommodating, and also, we have something that&#039 ; s unique that gives them something to talk about and give them something to learn about. Whereas, I guess, on the bigger town, they may help you get started a bit, but they expect you to get on your feet within a few months, right? But in a smaller town, you develop a connection much quicker and it seems to be more genuine. |00:17:18| BRODY: Interesting. So then what brought you here to North Texas? LE: Well, after my dad passed away, we moved to Lubbock, Texas, and continue our education there. And then from then, as each sibling started to attend college, then we start moving to different direction around the county. I&#039 ; ve ended up going to school in the University of Texas in Austin. And ever since then, I&#039 ; ve pretty much sprouted out and worked overseas, and worked different part of the country, and now, back in North Texas. North Texas is--I guess we all grew up with high aspiration and looking for better opportunity, and obviously, the Dallas--Fort Worth area has the opportunities that we were looking for, so that&#039 ; s why we ended up settling here. BRODY: How old were you when you--was it after college that you ended up in-- LE: (both speaking at once) Right. Correct. Some of the family member were ready to move to the Dallas area beforehand, but I came back from Europe in 1989 and started a start-up company--my first start-up--in the North Texas area. |00:18:38| BRODY: Interesting. What kind of work was it? LE: It was a very interesting company at the time that focused on multimedia technology. I came back and I joined a group to focus on developing tools to advance learning, especially for people with learning disabilities like myself, since I&#039 ; m supposed to be dyslexic and ADD and all that, which is something that&#039 ; s very difficult, at the time, to diagnose. But at the same time, I found ways around that and I&#039 ; ve learned how to learn through audiovisual means, versus the standard reading. BRODY: Was that hard for you in school then, in a traditional school? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely. Yeah. BRODY: How did you kind of cope with both the language and the learning differences? LE: Yeah. So my brain works very different than most. I didn&#039 ; t know at the time, but as I get a little bit older and older, and talked to other people, and diagnosed myself, I found out it&#039 ; s a gift. It&#039 ; s not a disability. And I&#039 ; ve learned how to leverage that--learned how to multitask--so I have what most people consider is a little bit different. It&#039 ; s like, most people are either the right brain or the left brain ; well, I&#039 ; m both, which can cause a lot of confusion if you don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s going on inside your own head, but once I figured that out, I was able to leverage that so I can be creative and analytical at the same time. That&#039 ; s when I really excelled, but at any early age I didn&#039 ; t understand all that, so I needed a lot of tutoring. But I did well, regardless. I was on the honor list, and on the dean&#039 ; s roll, and so forth, so--honor rolls--I&#039 ; m sorry, honor rolls and dean&#039 ; s list. As you can see, that&#039 ; s my dyslexia. (both laugh) But what it does is, it give you a whole different perspective on life and, from an educational standpoint, it takes me a little longer to learn something, but once I get going, I can excel a lot faster. BRODY: Well, that&#039 ; s good that you&#039 ; ve figured it out. So language learning must have been particularly challenging or-- LE: Actually, it actually came out to be a bonus because at one time, I spoke five languages, once I learned how it works. But to learn English, it was difficult at the beginning, but then, you-- |00:20:59| BRODY: Did you know any English before you came? LE: Just a little bit. Not too much. BRODY: So you just quickly learned it. LE: Yeah. We learned, actually, slang English or (both laugh) West Texas English. So you can understand different part of Texas have different dialect, and West Texan-- BRODY: What are some of examples of West Texas English? LE: West Texas is like, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all come back now, you hear?&quot ; right? (Brody laughs) That&#039 ; s the West Texas slang there. But West Texas people just slur your words more and we tend to speak a little bit slower. And so that&#039 ; s what we picked up, but as you start hitting the university level, then you learn the proper English, so my tongue has been twisted many times. (Brody laughs) But also, I&#039 ; ve learned French, I&#039 ; ve learned Italian and, through my travel, I&#039 ; ve picked up little bit Spanish, Japanese, and so forth. BRODY: Wow. That&#039 ; s impressive. LE: Thank you. BRODY: After college, you came to the DFW area. What were you doing at that time? LE: So actually, after college, I got my first job and I moved to Belgium, working for a Unisys computer there, so that&#039 ; s where I picked up French on the southern part of Belgium, which is the French-speaking part. I spent a year doing that. Then I came back to the US for a little bit in Boston, New York area, then I went back to Europe for my second internship working in Italy--it&#039 ; s where I picked up Italian. |00:22:33| BRODY: How long were you there? LE: Italy? About six months. And then from there, I came back to the US and accepted a full-time position in New York with Citibank. I worked there for two years, among other jobs. And then from there, moved back to the North Texas area to launch my first company. And like any start up, your first start up tend to be a failure, (laughs) but the network I built and the people I met was invaluable. From there, I move on to securing a position with EDS at the time, which is the Ross Perot Company at the time. Then that company got acquired by HP, but I already left at the time. And then I went and followed my boss to MCI System House, which then also got acquired by EDS/HP, so that was my second time back. (laughs) And then I went to work for TXU at the time, the big Texas utility company, which is also broken up now. Then I continued from there to work for them for a little while, then I had higher aspiration to launch more start-up company, so I went back to get my master in technology commercialization at the University of Texas as well, so I was commuting back and forth between Dallas and Austin. Ended up doing really well and got a job offer to go to Los Alamos National Lab in New Mexico. So I did that, but then after 9/11--did that for two years--and after 9/11, moved back to Texas again because 9/11 pretty much shut all the government labs down for security reasons, also to start focusing again on developing weapon of mass destruction because of the war that we&#039 ; re getting into with the Middle East and so forth, especially with Iraq and Iran. But no matter where I went, I always came back to North Texas, so North Texas tend to be the hub. I helped build up the North Texas life sciences community here. I launched a start up here in Frisco, did really well there, and helped develop the medical device in life science industry area. From there, I launched other company in other part of the states-- but still use Texas as a hub--and did a lot of advising, consulting, and travelled the world, and then now, I&#039 ; m running the life science division for Lenovo, which is--luckily, I&#039 ; m still able to base out here in North Texas. |00:25:16| BRODY: So you&#039 ; ve always come back. Do you think of yourself as a Texan? LE: I think so. I think of myself as a universal citizen with a Texas stamp. (laughs) BRODY: Tell me more about your thoughts about identity and how you identify. LE: For me, it&#039 ; s a little bit different. I&#039 ; ve really never identified myself as a Texan, or even a US citizen, because of my travel. Since I&#039 ; ve travelled so much--been in over fifty, I don&#039 ; t know, maybe sixty countries by now--I have more of a universal perspective. But no matter where I go, people ask me where am I from and I always say, &quot ; Texas. Dallas, Texas.&quot ; North Texas--and everybody&#039 ; d recognize that, right? You can tell in other part of the US, but when you say, &quot ; Dallas, Texas,&quot ; people know. That, in a way, kind of give me a little bit of pride. So I guess, in a way, I do identify myself as a Texan since I finally bit the bullet in buying a truck. (laughs) BRODY: You bought a truck? (laughs) What color is your truck? LE: It&#039 ; s a silver Ford F-150. BRODY: I think you are a Texan. (laughs) LE: There you go. When you a buy a truck, you are a bona fide Texan. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s really funny, but I mean, it raises a interesting point. I mean, you&#039 ; ve lived in so many places and you&#039 ; ve been so many places. Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese? As Vietnamese American? American? LE: Yeah, sure. I mean, I get that question asked all the time, and again, because of my travel, I kind of lose track of my identity in a way. I always identify myself as a universal citizen. But people always say, Well, aren&#039 ; t you Vietnamese and aren&#039 ; t you American, so aren&#039 ; t you Vietnamese American? I&#039 ; ll say, &quot ; Yeah, I guess so,&quot ; right? But I don&#039 ; t have a large group of Vietnamese friends, or I don&#039 ; t participate on a weekly basis or on a monthly basis with the Vietnamese community like I used to in the early days. To me, I just look at myself as a universal citizen, and even though I was born in Vietnam, raised in West Texas--raised in North Texas. But to me, I can relate to everybody. BRODY: Yeah. There&#039 ; s a flexibility that comes with that, but yet, people will always ask you, right? LE: Yeah. Always ask. It&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Where are you from?&quot ; But then, they say, No, no. Where are you really from? I say, Okay, then I got to feed them the full story. But if they ask me, Well, where are you from? I say, &quot ; Dallas, Texas.&quot ; |00:28:07| BRODY: How much does the--or in what ways does the refugee experience that is your story inform the way that you interact with the world? LE: Oh, I think it&#039 ; s tremendous. I mean, just, not so necessarily just being a Vietnamese refugee, but I think just being a refugee, period. Why do refugees and immigrants tend to do so much better in the US than, let&#039 ; s say, the average citizen? And a lot of it has to do with where you came from and the circumstance of how you got here that allow you to be more inspired and allow you to take a look at a problem from a different perspective, which is something that I think most people who are raised in a comfortable environment tend to take things for granted, so that&#039 ; s something that I have to remind myself on a daily basis, because we do have a very comfortable life in North Texas. We earned it, but at the same time, I feel like it does make us kind of lazy. That&#039 ; s something that I see in the second generation. I see it in my own kids, which I try to remind them that you can&#039 ; t take anything for granted. So from that perspective, just being a refugee, period, remind yourself that at one point, you had nothing and it could happen again. Anything that you have can always be taken away from you, so you have to take care of what you have and be more grateful of the things that you do have, and be more grateful and be more aware of your surrounding. That&#039 ; s something that I think most of us have lost. |00:29:50| BRODY: You mentioned you not being as involved now in the Vietnamese community as you were early on. Can you take me back to the time that you were involved with the Vietnamese community? What were the types of things that people did? LE: Sure. I mean, on my earlier days, since we are new in a community, you have to bond with your own race, in a way. So you have to go to the church event, you have to go to the community events, because that&#039 ; s all you knew at the time. But then we kind of expand beyond that, but at the time, we were very close with the church, with the community, we participated in all the events--charity events as well as fundraising events and other business events. I used to mentor and I used to tutor and I used to lecture in the community for the various venture that I was involved with. That community is still there, but I just haven&#039 ; t participated as much, I guess I would say, in the last ten years or so, since I kind of branch out to other part of the world--other part of business, which is mostly predominated by Caucasian, but that&#039 ; s just the nature of business. But today, I see a lot more Asians being integrated. Same thing with other races too ; whether it&#039 ; s blacks, Latino, Hispanic, wherever, we seem to have a more integrated community now, so I just don&#039 ; t see myself standing out like I used to. |00:31:25| BRODY: Yeah. That&#039 ; s a function of time as well as the community itself growing. What words would you choose to characterize the Vietnamese community in North Texas in general? LE: Oh, it&#039 ; s amazing. From what I&#039 ; ve seen in the past, when I was involved in the early days, most people have low-level-paying jobs. I was one of the few that actually were doing really well, but I really didn&#039 ; t understand why they didn&#039 ; t do as well, but that&#039 ; s because of their culture. They stayed within their own circle or their own bubbles that they&#039 ; re comfortable with. They were required to speak Vietnamese at home. They were required to participate in the Vietnamese community. So most of the people at the time have very low paying jobs. They were blue-collar worker. But as the time pass on and generation gotten more and more educated, the community has exploded. I mean, most of the jobs before were either in restaurants or in low-wages labor, but now they&#039 ; re professionals. They&#039 ; re in management. They&#039 ; re doctors, lawyers, engineers, business owner, so it&#039 ; s changed dramatically, I would say, in the last ten, fifteen years as people became a lot more affluent, more wealthy. You see them have much bigger house, nicer house, nicer cars. So in essence, the community has adapted very well. But then there are new waves of Vietnamese coming in as well that are starting from the bottom as well, so it&#039 ; s like a cycle that we go through, but-- BRODY: Do you think there&#039 ; s much interaction between the new arrivals and the people who came at the time that you did? LE: I think so. I think a lot of them are still connected through the food that we all share. I think food itself brings people together, and because we&#039 ; re all looking for the best Vietnamese food possible and the most authentic Vietnamese restaurants possible, we tend to pool ourselves together in those environment. Even for me, I have to have at least a few Vietnamese dish at least once a week. (laughs) BRODY: Do you cook? LE: I try to. Yeah, I try to, but it&#039 ; s hard to cook for--just for one or two people. |00:33:55| BRODY: Well, that just makes me think. When you were growing up in Sweetwater, what was that like? Did your mom cook Vietnamese food every day? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely. Yeah. Every day. Every day. And there was not much of it, so there was no second serving. (laughs) BRODY: Well, was it hard for her to get the groceries? LE: In a way, but we grew. That&#039 ; s why we had a little farm in our backyard, which we shouldn&#039 ; t have. (both laugh) She tried to grow whatever she needs in the backyard, and she wanted fresh chicken, so we grew our own chicken. (both laugh) BRODY: Then you found out the hard way, right? LE: Yeah. So we had fresh egg. It was difficult to get some of the items she needs, but sometimes, we had to drive two hours away just to get the ingredient and supplies she need. But yeah, she cooked every day. We couldn&#039 ; t afford to eat out. BRODY: Right. Were there things that struck you, at the time, as being particularly American things that your friends were eating that you were--that you hoped that you could try? LE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pizza and burgers was actually a treat. (Brody laughs) Yeah. Believe it or not, it was kind of funny because when my dad passed away, one of my friends&#039 ; dad owned the local Sonic restaurant, and they donated over four hundred burgers and fries to us. (laughs) So that was quite-- BRODY: You&#039 ; ll never forget that. (laughs) LE: Yeah. So that was like, &quot ; Wow!&quot ; That was like--that was a treat for everybody, because we had a lot of people that came in for the funeral, and most of them were Vietnamese. Since my dad was quite well known for the time, so people drove in from long distance to attend the funeral, and instead of having Vietnamese food, we ended up having hamburger! (laughs) BRODY: Hamburgers. (laughs) Why was your dad so well known? LE: He&#039 ; s the top educator in Vietnam, and that&#039 ; s a very respected position. BRODY: And the people in the surrounding communities knew that. I mean, when he was alive, did people come and seek out his company and counsel? LE: Oh yeah, so we had a lot of company all the time. |00:36:07| BRODY: It sounds like that, at that time, even though you were in West Texas and you were the only Vietnamese family in Sweetwater, it sounds like, in the neighboring communities, there were other Vietnamese families as well. LE: Correct. BRODY: How did you find each other? LE: You know, that&#039 ; s a good question. I was too young to know, because we didn&#039 ; t really have internet back then, so somehow, I guess just through mail--just snail mail and just driving, even just word of mouth, that people were beginning to connect with each other. BRODY: Do you think the churches had any role in connecting people? LE: (both speaking at once) Oh, definitely, yeah. I think the Vietnamese community definitely--the Catholic church, especially. The Vietnamese Catholic churches definitely helped connect a lot of people. BRODY: Here in Dallas, are you still attending Catholic church or involved in a Vietnamese Catholic church? LE: Only when my mom call me. (both laugh) Yeah. My mom go to church at least twice a week, since they&#039 ; re very-- BRODY: (both speaking at once) And she&#039 ; s here too? LE: Yeah. She&#039 ; s here in Dallas. BRODY: Does she attend a Vietnamese Catholic church? LE: Yeah, yeah. And, as well, American church. BRODY: (both speaking at one) St. Peter&#039 ; s. LE: Yeah. That one, and also a couple of them in Dallas. She kind of rotate around, but she goes to American church as well as Vietnamese church. BRODY: So now the church is not a big factor, but at the time that you were integrating, that was definitely-- LE: (both speaking at once) Sure. Right. Yeah. I think church and religion--at the time, that was really the sole avenue you go to for support. |00:37:41| BRODY: Tell me about--you&#039 ; ve travelled around and you&#039 ; ve lived in a lot of places and interacted with a lot of different people. Have you experienced any discrimination or racism, or do you have any thoughts on that? LE: (both speaking at one) Sure. I think in the early days, because we were so unique and different, people were just calling us by different names and so forth that, at the time, we didn&#039 ; t know what they mean anyways, so it didn&#039 ; t bother us. (both laugh) BRODY: That&#039 ; s good. LE: Right. We&#039 ; ve learned a few slang ourselves, so we kind of throw some back to them, and sometimes they didn&#039 ; t like it either. To me, I just didn&#039 ; t see that as a problem, but occasionally people would say whatever they need to say just to express themselves or make them feel bigger, but I never looked at that as something that would hold me back. If there&#039 ; s any racial bias or discrimination, it&#039 ; s not the one that&#039 ; s verbal or the one that&#039 ; s in your face that you&#039 ; re concerned with. It was the one that&#039 ; s really behind the doors where decisions are made against you just because you are different. And sometime I do see that, but I never let that stop me from being able to achieve what I needed to achieve, so I always had to work a little bit longer, work a little bit harder and smarter, and just have to get to the right people at the right time. But I can see that. I can see that in the early days, but I don&#039 ; t see that as much today. Definitely twenty years ago, thirty years ago if I look back, I do see that, but at the time, it was not as apparent to me or it didn&#039 ; t bother me. But if I were more aware, as I am now, and go back to those same time period, I probably would&#039 ; ve done something about it. But at the time, you just accept it. |00:39:45| BRODY: You mentioned you&#039 ; ve got kids and have raised them here, obviously, in Texas. Tell me about your family. LE: Sure. I have two grown daughter. They&#039 ; re both in college. What&#039 ; s different about them is that I did not marry within my own race, so I married a wonderful woman from Oklahoma, raised on a dairy farm, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Brody laughs) BRODY: How did you meet? LE: We met at a club (laughs) and, as it turned out, we were working for the same company at the time, so that kind of kicked things off a little bit. And it was--had the right chemistry, and we have two beautiful daughters and they were both born with blonde hair at the early age, which is kind of weird, but that was not expected. But then their hair got dark as they get older. They&#039 ; ve done really well and, in the early years, they looked a little bit, probably, more Americans, but now as they grown older, they look a little bit more Asian, so even those transition has been very interesting for them as well. |00:40:55| BRODY: Yeah. Can you tell me about how--what your observations of their own experience growing up? LE: Yeah. They basically were raised as American because, since I divorced, when-- even though we raised them together, I divorced when they were a little bit younger, and my ex basically raised them the way that she wanted, which, basically, as an American. So as far as I&#039 ; m concerned, they&#039 ; re as American as they can be, but we also tried to introduce them to Asian culture as well, but I think they&#039 ; re much more suited to be a North Texan, let&#039 ; s say. |00:41:42| BRODY: What are the key values that you think are part of Asian culture or Vietnamese culture? LE: I think family is key, but in the early days that was extremely important. Everything you do, you have to think about your family first. But I think, in recent years--like I said, in the last ten years, that doesn&#039 ; t seem to be as important anymore because people tend to have more choices now. BRODY: Even among the Asian community here? LE: (both speaking at once) Yeah, yeah. BRODY: Just here, or even abroad? LE: (both speaking at once) I think everywhere. I mean, even in China, they had to pass a law that parents can sue their children, because if the parent feel like the children are not spending enough time with them or taking care of them as they age, the parents actually can sue the children now. That kind of tell you how much has changed, and that goes with economics. As the economies get better and better, people get more and more busy, and they have more and more choices. They rather spend time with people in their own age or their own interest, so family is not really on the top of their priority list, unless it&#039 ; s holidays time. So I began to see that everywhere as well, and I think that&#039 ; s just the natural cycle of life. BRODY: So family is a key value but kind of, maybe, diminishing. LE: I think so. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Are there any other values that you think would characterize Vietnamese culture? LE: Food, definitely. Before, everybody cook, so that was something that you could share among family, so you spent a lot of time cooking together and eating together, and I think that&#039 ; s been diminished as well. We have more and more options now. We have more and more restaurants that are open where they go out to eat, versus cook at home, so I think that&#039 ; s diminishing as well--at least, in my family. My mom, she try to cook for everybody at least once or twice a month, but before, you were doing it every day. So that doesn&#039 ; t happen anymore because you&#039 ; re so busy now. I think that&#039 ; s changing too, and that&#039 ; s the bond that you used to have which is beginning to fade away. |00:44:00| BRODY: I was thinking about some of the--the whole path that you took here, and I know that you&#039 ; ve written a book, and thank you so much for sharing that. Can you tell me what drove you write your book and, sort of, what it contains? LE: Right. Right. Yeah, I&#039 ; ve kind of live a pretty fast life. (laugh) The book was published in 2006 and I was about only forty at the time, and it took me long--even though it&#039 ; s a short book, but it&#039 ; s very straight to the point--a little bit too much of the truth, which scare a lot of people. BRODY: What do you mean? LE: In other words, it has subjects in there that most people are afraid to talk about, especially at the time when the internet was just taking off. Now, it&#039 ; s no big deal, but the content of the book still hold truth, which kind of surprising for me, but for someone that&#039 ; s only forty years old and haven&#039 ; t had a whole lot of experience in life, but yet had enough, or at least more than the average person, that people are willing to want to read it. But the book covers topics that deals with sex, love, marriage, gambling, business, entrepreneurship, finding balance, spirituality, religion, and so forth. I guess I&#039 ; m just a fast learner in a way. I&#039 ; ve had a lot of experience even at the time, and I&#039 ; ve done a lot more since then. But in essence, the content and the book laid the foundation for the life that I hope that my kids can relate, because I didn&#039 ; t have a father growing up--he passed away young--so a lot of us has to learn things our own way, so we created our own niche, we&#039 ; ve made things work, and I was hoping to leave a legacy for my kids. And a lot of people also wanted to know: how can I be able to do all this in such a short period of time? Well, I was only forty, so a lot of people thought that a lot of these were all made up. But I&#039 ; m a dual brainer, so my brain is on all the time, even though--when I&#039 ; m sleeping, I do a lot of lucid dreaming, so my brain is constantly working and I solve problems that a lot of people can&#039 ; t solve, so there&#039 ; s not really anything that is impossible. It&#039 ; s just, what can you imagine? What can your mind allow you to imagine? There&#039 ; s so much to be discovered still, and I just got a jumpstart on that, and I continue to help solve problem that most people can&#039 ; t solve. So that&#039 ; s what I want to leave behind for my kids. It started out as more of a manuscript, and then people start asking more and more about it, and then I started adding other topics in. But I think at the time, it was really to help my kid understand why I did what I did so that they don&#039 ; t have to repeat the same mistake, and they can also use that platform to grow upon. And as it turned out, it help a lot of college students. BRODY: Really? LE: Yeah. I still get a lot of thank-you notes from college students and college graduates who&#039 ; ve taken some of the advice and move on to their careers and saw what I predicted come to reality. BRODY: What did you predict? LE: Half the book--the stuff I wrote in my book actually came true already in just prediction of where technology is heading, and the society that we&#039 ; re living in and how you can make it better. |00:47:36| BRODY: The title of the book is Living in Paradox. What is the paradox you&#039 ; re referring to there? LE: Well, life is a paradox, if you haven&#039 ; t figured that out yet, (laughs) but most people believe in right or wrong or believe there&#039 ; s only one way of doing certain things, but life is a paradox. We are constantly in conflict. We&#039 ; re constantly contradicting ourself. We&#039 ; re constantly contradicting each other, and that&#039 ; s why we have all these conflicts, and we have to find a compromise. So there are no rights or wrong, at least from my perspective. It is whatever we make of it. Rules change. Why do rules change? Because we decided it&#039 ; s okay today but then not okay tomorrow, and then with time we switch it back. Take marijuana as a perfect example. Why is it legal in some states, and not legal in the other? We live in the same country, right? That&#039 ; s just one example. Life is a paradox, and if you understand what are those environment are so that you can allow yourself to understand the left and the right, the black and the white, then you can decide which side you want to stand on and understand why, or maybe just find a gray area and find that balance, which is something that very difficult for us to achieve--for most of us to achieve, and so it&#039 ; s something we have to work on on a daily basis. |00:48:59| BRODY: That sounds like the same kind of flexibility you were talking about earlier. How much do you think your own story, your own experiences has contributed to your sort of flexible mindset? LE: Well, I think experience--when we&#039 ; re young, we&#039 ; re selfishly motivated, so we want to do things our way because we want to prove ourself. But as you gain more and more experience, you realize you don&#039 ; t know as much as you thought. And then we can get a lot of knowledge from the internet--you can google anything you want--but the wisdom is missing. Very few of us can actually connect the dots. We can regurgitate a lot of stuff that we live and read about, but until you actually have that experience--two person can have the same experience, and they&#039 ; ll give you two different perspective, right? So it&#039 ; s extremely important that you understand yourself, and then understand how to express yourself in the environment that you want to live in. But if you&#039 ; re incapable of adapting to that environment, it&#039 ; s okay too. You just have to create your own environment. I&#039 ; ve been pretty lucky at being able to adapt in all situation, and I continue to push myself to explore what I&#039 ; m capable of and not forget what&#039 ; s the most important things in life. |00:50:34| BRODY: What do you think the most important things in life are? LE: (laughs) Oh my god. For me? (laughs) BRODY: Yes. (laughs) LE: The most important thing for me is really to have the best experience I could possibly have without hurting myself or people around me. (both laugh) BRODY: Fair enough. LE: Yeah. Life is all about the experience. I could give you the philosophical perspective as well, but we may not have time for that today. (laughs) BRODY: Go ahead. (laughs) I would love to hear it. LE: This life as you know it is what nature intend for us to do, and then this is life as you know it is what society intend for you to do. So what nature intend for us to do is basically just to reproduce, replicate. That&#039 ; s really--so if you ask someone, &quot ; What is the meaning of life?&quot ; They could give you all kind of answer, but in reality, there&#039 ; s only one meaning of life which is reproduction, replication. If you look at all DNA program, and that&#039 ; s really the area that I work in--is in genomic research, leveraging AI and supercomputers to do that--there&#039 ; s only one purpose in life, and that&#039 ; s to replicate. And then whatever you want to surround yourself with to support that mechanism, that&#039 ; s what organic life is designed to do. If we don&#039 ; t replicate, we die, so that&#039 ; s why DNA program only does one thing and it does it pretty well. It makes a lot of copies, and it trying to seduce other host to support your replication. That&#039 ; s why we have viruses, bacteria, and why we have different species, and male, female, and so forth, but in reality, it&#039 ; s only one program ; it&#039 ; s to replicate. But then you have life for society as well, and society support that whole process, so we build a society that will allow you to replicate faster and better, and that&#039 ; s why we have more people living today than we ever had combined in the history of the world. So we&#039 ; ve done a very good job at that. BRODY: At that, yes. LE: So that&#039 ; s really the purpose of life, and once we expend this planet, then we go to the other planet. (laughs) Take it with a--but in reality, I think the other part is--to life--is the consciousness, is that the side effect of life, now, is consciousness, is that we became aware of what nature intend for us to do, and we&#039 ; re trying to change nature. We&#039 ; re redesigning nature right now. That&#039 ; s why we no longer live in the wilderness. We live in a concrete world. We live in a sterile world. We can&#039 ; t go back. Our immune system has been compromised, so that&#039 ; s why we get so sick so easy once we get outside of our environment, because we sterilize our environment. We&#039 ; re rewriting the program. We&#039 ; re re-editing our genome. We&#039 ; re changing our own self to be able to, again, replicate even better. We got designer babies now. In essence, we&#039 ; re constantly in conflict between our physical and mental aspect, is that the physical side--nature already programmed it for us. Now it&#039 ; s our awareness. What do we want to do? Do we want to follow nature&#039 ; s rules or do we want to redesign it? That&#039 ; s awareness. BRODY: Interesting. Sounds like a lot to think about, for sure. LE: Most of us don&#039 ; t want to think about it. It&#039 ; s too complicated. We just want our food, football, and TV. (both laugh) |00:54:19| BRODY: Yeah. There&#039 ; s--and this kind of makes me think about this other area that we haven&#039 ; t talked about yet. You&#039 ; ve described what society wants and sort of the expectations of that. Where does politics fit into that? Are you engaged with politics, either--I know you think of yourself as a universal citizen, so does that make you more engaged at the global level or the local level or both? LE: I try not to, and I used to volunteer and help deliver message, and used to pass out pamphlets and leaflet and so forth, but I don&#039 ; t do it anymore because, just from a personal level, if there&#039 ; s something that I can change and control, I will do it. I just don&#039 ; t feel like we&#039 ; re in control of this big machine anymore, so I try to just do what I can within my own little community. From a bigger perspective, we need an overhaul. For a political perspective, the system that gotten us here no longer works, and that&#039 ; s why we have so much disarray right now in Washington. Not just in the US, but look at the UK, for instance, with Brexit, and all the other country that can&#039 ; t seem to get along anymore because their population has been diversified now, so the old system--the old model-- doesn&#039 ; t work anymore. It&#039 ; s almost like having the tax system that&#039 ; s been so outdated that there&#039 ; s so many loopholes in it that you basically have to revamp it. In that perspective, these changes will not come overnight, and that&#039 ; s just something that we all have to continue to pursue, and I think technology will help to get us there. It&#039 ; s sometimes better just to start from scratch, so look at another example, like electric vehicles. Tesla&#039 ; s taking the lead on that--or space travel. Those are the kind of things that has to happen in order for us to wake up and get rid of the old model, and be able to get out of our comfort zone. But right now, I think we&#039 ; re not there yet, so I try to stay away from it. (laughs) BRODY: Yeah. Well--and even--do you keep up with Vietnamese politics at all? LE: Some. Not much. Only because of the business I do. Right now, I mean, we look at what&#039 ; s going on in Asia, especially with China and Vietnam, and with communism and socialism and capitalism all mixed into one, so that&#039 ; s actually working really well, right? So you don&#039 ; t have to have just communism. You just have to apply communism when you need to, apply socialism when you need to, and apply capitalism when you need to-- whereas we think about just, Capitalism, capitalism, capitalism. Well, that&#039 ; s not a sustainable model. |00:57:18| BRODY: When you&#039 ; re thinking about yourself and your kids and the people who are in your community, do you think of yourselves as American? Do you think of yourself as American? And if so or if not, what do you think it means to be American or to say that you&#039 ; re American? LE: Yeah. When I travel, I get asked a lot of question like, &quot ; Where are you from?&quot ; and, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re Americans, right?&quot ; And I say, &quot ; Oh, yeah.&quot ; Even when I hear a side conversation, even though I&#039 ; m not born in the US--but what is the US? The US is made up of refugees and immigrants, right? So some of us are born here, some of them are not, but in essence, if you pay your taxes, you&#039 ; re an American. (both laugh) BRODY: It&#039 ; s that simple. LE: It&#039 ; s that simple, yeah! There&#039 ; s no way about it. What is American? Being an American is the ability to have the freedom that we&#039 ; ve earned. We pay for it. We sacrifice ourself for it. Freedom, the ability to express yourself, the ability to do whatever is needed to provide for your family in a way where you&#039 ; re not restricted like most countries. As much as I like to travel and enjoy all the culture around the world, I still like coming home to North Texas because to me, there&#039 ; s no other place in the world that I&#039 ; ve seen that has the best quality of life. I mean, everywhere else, there&#039 ; s things you can do, there&#039 ; s things you cannot do, whereas, here, in Texas, especially North Texas, we can do just about anything we want as long as we don&#039 ; t hurt ourself and other people. We have more opportunities here than anywhere else. You can launch a start-up any time you want. You can create and express yourself anyway you want. I always feel very blessed and grateful every time I come home. We have a beautiful airport. BRODY: (both speaking at once) Yeah, so this is home. LE: Yeah. We have a beautiful airport. We got lots of land. You can actually see the sunset. (laughs) The air is better than most. We complain our air quality here but, boy, have you been to China? (both laugh) |00:59:31| BRODY: That&#039 ; s funny. Is there anything else that you&#039 ; d like to share, or anything that I&#039 ; ve forgotten to ask? LE: No. I think you got a pretty detailed list, so I hope that this contribute to the archive and help inspire other refugees and immigrants coming to the area. That&#039 ; s one of the reason when I wrote my book too, is that people always ask me how did I do this? How did I do that? Well, if I can come here with nothing and start from the very bottom on welfare and food stamps and be able to achieve what I was able to achieve, and be able to provide for my friends and family, and continue to grow the business community, continue to contribute to the community, I can teach that to anybody. BRODY: Yes. That&#039 ; s really inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate your time, and I&#039 ; m so happy that we could record your story today. LE: Thank you. BRODY: Thank you so much. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh008_btba_008.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Phong Le Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh008_btba_008 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-01-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/8725bf7426e723d3ce567802c554ca1d.jpg ecacbe8ed860d0ed49fcc5dfefd06bb5 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sao Tran OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Sao Tran, January 7, 2019 2019oh007_btba_006 1:04:02 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Sao Tran Betsy Brody mp3 oh-audio-dig-tran_S_20190107.mp3 1:|15(1)|22(1)|31(2)|41(5)|49(13)|56(11)|66(3)|88(10)|98(12)|109(8)|121(9)|132(8)|140(12)|151(10)|159(10)|172(10)|182(9)|194(3)|205(1)|215(11)|225(10)|236(7)|249(10)|261(13)|270(2)|280(10)|291(6)|301(12)|310(6)|321(4)|332(11)|351(5)|361(6)|373(9)|383(1)|394(4)|406(3)|415(12)|422(5)|436(7)|444(8)|453(11)|462(9)|472(2)|481(13)|491(10)|501(13)|513(7)|525(2)|535(8)|545(9)|552(12)|563(9)|570(9)|592(9)|601(6)|611(2)|619(8)|629(11)|639(10)|649(10) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/114143 Aviary audio 1 Introduction/Overview of Tran's story BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 7, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Sao Tran. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History, and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. Alright, Mr. Tran, I’m so happy that you could join me here today and we could record this interview. To start with, could you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam, what you your work was and what you were doing as the Vietnam War wound down? |00:00:36| TRAN: Well, when I become the working, I do school teacher for one year and, as you know, teacher didn’t pay that much back home. And then I left the teaching job, I go work for the US consulate general office, but the branch office in the Hội An. That’s part of the historical city now, Hội An, Quảng Nam. I worked there as a interpreter and translator, and then I become office manager and then I got transferred to Danang in—well, this in 1972. So I start in Hội An, 1967, and transfer to Danang, 1972 as the position of admin specialist. Then I stay there until ’75, the company—my country fall to the communist side, so we got evacuated. But before we got evacuated outside of Vietnam we go through Saigon, it one of the most north of Vietnam, and from there we flew to Guam and to Camp Pendleton, and then sponsored by St. Pius X [Catholic Parish] in East Texas. So we came here— BRODY: In Texas. So when you finally made it to Texas— TRAN: —I believe, June, 1975. Camp Pendleton ; Danang ; Guam ; Hoi An ; Quang Nam ; Saigon ; St. Pius X ; U.S. Consulate General 135 Evacuation from Vietnam/Separation from and reunion with family BRODY: So the evacuation itself—so you had to make your way to Saigon first? TRAN: Yes, that’s right. The thing and what happened is it—I think in March, should be in early March, I send my family to Saigon, and then I stay there about a couple of weeks, because I had to stay behind to help with the local employee. I told you that I was administration specialist, I had to help my local employee for evacuation. So I stayed there until most of them left, and then I have take the last flight, flew out from Danang to Saigon, and from Saigon I stayed one month, and then again I involve the evacuation, so I send my family out two day ahead. I stayed back to help all the local employee evacuation with their family. Then I flew out—American officer said, “Don’t worry about it, we’ll locate your family.” However, that what they say, but not exactly happen. Two days later, after my family left the Vietnam, I flew out, and, like, we flew through Guam, which is naval base. Meanwhile, I don’t know where my family by that time. BRODY: Oh my gosh. You must have been so worried. TRAN: Yeah. I was very worried. BRODY: How many people were—how many of your family members had you sent ahead? TRAN: Yeah, the—in total, my family is ten, including me. We have four kid, one brother, two sister, and mother. So ten people. BRODY: Okay. And your wife, of course? TRAN: And my wife. Really, I was confused and worried when I was in Guam, and I look all over, I talk with all kind of US official to try and locate my family, but nobody knew. So two day later, somehow because the Subic Bay’s refugee camp is full, because most of Vietnamese go out through Philippine, it closer. So it’s full, they had—so what they do from in that island(??), they send my family to the Guam from Philippine. So where I was, Sunday morning I wake up and walk around the camp, I catch my oldest son lie on the cot in military tent. That is where we get reunited. evacuation ; Guam ; naval base ; Saigon ; separation from family 299 Flying to Camp Pendleton/Sponsorship in Texas And then later, about two days later, we process paperwork and flew to Camp Pendleton in California. And we stay there about thirty day or so, and then we find a sponsor, I think somewhere in June 1975, we found—original sponsor was the University of Plano. And I think the president of the Plano University by that time, Dorothy Morris. That’s very little university, Plano, and I think a few years later they phase out, it’s sold. I stay in Plano University for group—with other people, maybe sixty people. That only temp advisor. They had to go out and look for permanent—I’m sorry, temporary sponsor. They had to go out and look for permanent sponsor. So there, the St. Pius X jump in and sponsor our family, because the family is so big, ten people, and nobody can sign with that big, because so big for them to carry that responsibility. So finally, St. Pius X took over and then we move from Plano to east Dallas, which where the St. Pius X church located BRODY: Yes. So what was that—how did that feel for you, when you got that news that St. Pius church was going to sponsor your family? TRAN: A matter of fact, it’s very happy that we sponsored by the church because nobody really want to carry that big responsibility except the church, because they’re a group of people. They have manpower, they have resource to help us. So they go out and look for house, put our need to live, they find familiar food for us to eat, and then I find a job. (laughs) Camp Pendleton ; Dorothy Morris ; East Dallas ; food ; housing ; sponsorship ; St. Pius X ; University of Plano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_New_Arrivals Operation New Arrivals Wikipedia page 435 Initial employment in Dallas BRODY: Oh, what was your job? What job did you find? TRAN: The first job I found is the—they call computer operator, but that was the—in those days it’s mainframe, not PC [personal computer] nowadays. And the main job is to work in the tape library. BRODY: The tape library? TRAN: Library, yeah, and the big twenty-four-hundred feet—the big one, big tape. When they call the number on the drive, you go into a library, you get the number, hang it on, and when it dismount, you take it up, put it back in the library. It is simple, but it’s basically the heavy, physical work, because you walk all day long with heavy tape, a lot of that big, heavy tape. (laughs) BRODY: So that’s pretty different than what you were doing in Vietnam. TRAN: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Having office with people. BRODY: Yeah, you were working in an office and administration in Vietnam. How did that—how was the transition for you, or what were you—what did you feel in finding that job? Were you happy when you found the computer job? TRAN: Well, I can’t feel(??) happy or not ; I had to have something to eat for the kid, you know, the family. So I think it’s fine at the beginning. It’s hard, but it’s okay. BRODY: Yeah. You survived and provided for your family, right? TRAN: Yeah, it’s—I think they pay about three dollar and quarter an hour. BRODY: Right. This is still 1975? TRAN: Yeah. computer operator ; employment ; jobs ; tape library 526 Details about being reunited with family in Guam BRODY: Yes. So I want to go back real quick. I mean, the story that you told about finding your family by accident in Guam is pretty astonishing. What was the moment like? Did you see them, or did they see you? TRAN: The thing, by that time the Red Cross, they give you a tent, I think only a single-person tent. If you have family they give you a big tent. I had a little tent. And then I wake up real early in the morning, probably about five, six o’clock, and I keep walking around the area, just don’t know what to do. And I walk by a big tent, military, it’s canvas, and I saw my son lying on the couch, military couch. He slept— BRODY: He was sleeping. He was just sleeping. TRAN: Yeah, and suddenly I found them, family, yeah. Basically, like miracle, you know? BRODY: Sounds like it, and they must have been so relieved as well. TRAN: Yeah, they do. Yeah, and they said—well, two days later we process the paper through the immigration service and we flew to— BRODY: Camp Pendleton. TRAN: —to San Diego. Is that San Diego? Camp Pendleton, yeah. BRODY: Yes, yes, near San Diego. Camp Pendleton ; Guam ; Red Cross ; reunion with family ; San Diego ; separation from family 603 Sponsorship by St. Pius X/Experiences with shopping and cooking BRODY: So—okay, so back to east Dallas, then. So the sponsor was the church that sponsored your family. Were there any specific people that were sponsoring you, or just the church in general? TRAN: I think that by that time they passed aside our family to what they call Men’s Club, the Men’s Club. And they had the Men’s Club work closely with us to try to help us through the—find food, find house, and thing like that, get try to settle in the area, get familiar with the custom and try to help. Some of my family didn’t—most of my—all of my family don’t speak English except me, and so they helped teaching English and do a health check, whatever. And it really hard for me by that time because, like I said, nobody speak English except me. So I had to buy groceries, I had—everything, I had to do it ; everything. BRODY: It’s all on your shoulders there. TRAN: Except cooking. They do cooking. BRODY: They did the cooking. What were some of the most challenging things about, for example, buying groceries? Obviously, time, but was it—what were some of the biggest surprises that you experienced when you were shopping for your family? TRAN: Well the thing that surprising because they didn’t—back in Vietnam, they don’t price stuff like we do here. So easy, very easy to do shopping here rather than back home. Back home, they don’t know price and they can tell you price, you have to keep negotiate, negotiate, and that’s when you buy ten item, take about two or three hour before you get through ten item (Brody laughs) because you keep barking back and forth. (both laugh) Over here, you see price, whether you like or not, that’s all—they don’t change the price. BRODY: It seems straightforward, yes. TRAN: Yes. Ten dollar is ten dollar. It’s easier. BRODY: Yes. So the Men’s Club, the people in the Men’s Club ; were there particular leaders in that group that kind of took you along and showed you how to do the things? TRAN: Yeah, the Men’s Club, I think the president of Men’s Club by that time, Mr. Travis Harmon. Travis Harmon, he’s president, he worked very closely with us—of course, you have other members helping with, but he the main guy. We need anything, we call him, he help. But we try to limit how have had to call because anything we can do, we try to do ourselves, because the big family like that, you can call and you don’t want to bother them. food ; housing ; Men's Club ; shopping ; sponsors ; sponsorship ; St. Pius X 769 Schooling for the children BRODY: Right. So the household, you were the only one who spoke English, and yet you had all the kids. How did you navigate getting them into school and having them enrolled and working on their schoolwork? TRAN: Yeah, at first at the early—I think a couple of lady in the parish help us through process to register kid in school. And then after that, we had the walk from our home to the school because it not too far away. I want to say about mile and a half. BRODY: Okay. Not too far at all. TRAN: Yeah. However, we came from hot weather country, and in the morning here, even in, let’s say, spring, it still very cold. So my wife had to bring the kid to walk to school and come back. And that’s cold for her. BRODY: That’s cold—it’s cold for her, for sure. The kids get used to it, I guess. TRAN: Yeah, but they got used very quickly. BRODY: Yes. Is it different having kids in school in Vietnam versus in the United States? What were some of the key differences? TRAN: Oh yeah, it different. Much different. We come from the country not quite wealthy a lot, and the wealthy in our country, so the life of the school is different, the class different. Over here, school feed kid. They supply everything in public school, book and everything. We didn’t have to buy anything. And we make low income, we fill out application, ask for the lunch exempt, reducing, whatever, but they have to do something back home. Back home they have to walk home and eat lunch and come back. education ; educational systems ; English ; language ; school ; weather 894 Experiences at work at Sun Oil/Friendship with American coworkers BRODY: Right, it’s very different, yes. When you were working, did you experience any—did you interact very much with other Americans, or were you primarily with other Vietnamese refugees? What was your work experience like? TRAN: The working—I work strictly with all American, no Vietnamese around at all because that really an oil company, what they call Sun Oil Company, and their headquarter is in—I want to say in Philadelphia, Northeast. But they have the data center in Oklahoma—Tulsa, Oklahoma. They relocate data center from Tulsa to Dallas, and I think on Empire Central [Drive] and I-30 [Interstate 30], right. Because they just relocate, they need manpower. A lot of low, low-class employees. (laughs) They don’t want to come here, they want to fool around with. So they had vacant. That’s why they hired me tape, pick the tape, put on tape right and dismount and put it back in. That’s all we had to do. BRODY: That’s all you had to do, yes. TRAN: Sometimes we have the time to clean the tape drive, we put the tape back in the library by the number. Make sure you put in proper number so next time you can locate. BRODY: Right, easily. TRAN: Sometimes it’s part of misfound, take a half day to look for it. (both laugh) BRODY: That must be frustrating. So your other coworkers were mostly Americans, other than your brother? TRAN: Yeah, that’s right. Only my brother. But we in different shift. |00:16:40| BRODY: Right, so—oh right, different shifts. So what was it—were you friendly with the other Americans? TRAN: Oh yeah, they were good, it’s fine. BRODY: So tell me about your—what that was like, your work environment and your relationships. TRAN: It very good, because the thing is, the—I think the first year we came to that data center, one of the tape hanger, he’s a senior in the group. And he was actually a marine who come from—return from Vietnam. And he said, “Sao, I want to give you something.” I said, “What do you want me give?” “I give you a car.” BRODY: He gave you a car? TRAN: Yeah, he had Volkswagen, you know, the old Beetle? He gave me the Beetle Volkswagen. And by that time, he lived in Lewisville. So we go out to Lewisville, pick up the Volkswagen, and I drive for about two or three years. It’s a very good car. And by the time me and my family get bigger, so I had to buy some station wagon. Then I gave that Volkswagen to somebody else. I didn’t sell, you know? BRODY: Wow. So that’s very generous— TRAN: Yeah, it is. BRODY: —he just—why do you think he gave you the Volkswagen? TRAN: He said he’d love to help us, because he came from Vietnam. He had returned from Vietnam, rather. And he’d love to help us. And not only that, but the first Christmas, the data center, I think they collect money to help us buy the—for a TV set, black and white, and buy a whole bunch of food for us and feed one of the lunch before Christmas. So I brought the TV home for the kids and look at—they watch it. BRODY: Oh wow, they must have been thrilled. TRAN: Yeah, it’s small, about twelve inch, but it’s good. BRODY: Yes, that’s great. So that sounds like it was a very welcoming experience, your whole experience. TRAN: Yeah, it was, it was. BRODY: Were you worried that—as you were coming, you know, making your way to Texas with the different stops that you made, were you—what were some of your thoughts as you were coming over here? Were you worried that it wasn’t going to be welcoming or that it might be hard? TRAN: At first I do, I did. But after I contact with people around me, I feel very comfortable with and they like, I ask for help if I need to, and they were ready to help us anytime we need. But like I said, I tried not to ask so much. I chose to limit myself. car ; Christmas ; data center ; employment ; friendships ; generosity ; gifts ; jobs ; kindness ; Sun Oil ; Sun Oil Company ; tape library ; television ; TV ; Volkswagon 1167 Relationships at St. Pius X Catholic Church BRODY: That’s good, that’s good. So the—your main interaction was with the workplace and the church, it sounds like. TRAN: Church, main thing, you’re right. BRODY: So tell me more about your relationships at St. Pius X. TRAN: Well, with St. Pius X, I had made contact with the pastor of that church and everything related to the Vietnamese, he’d call upon me, because I’m the guy who would speak English, the rest of them speak somewhat, not very well. BRODY: That’s Monsignor? TRAN: Yeah. So any problem with the Vietnamese or they need some help and they talk with this pastor or whoever in the parish office and they don’t understand, they call me. They always call me. (laughs) BRODY: So you knew what was going on in the community because you were helping— TRAN: Yeah, it’s like I could relay back to them easier. I think the original group who came to St. Pius X by that time is ten family. But I’m the guy who come first. The first family. BRODY: You were the first family. TRAN: And they had rented house for us, it’s $175 a month. Three bedroom, only one bath for ten people. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. (laughs) That must’ve been crowded. TRAN: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, we stayed there a couple of year. Or course, the first few months, they pay the rent but after that we had to pick up the bill. BRODY: But by then you’ve got your job and— TRAN: Yeah, I’ve got that job. Then I go to school, came to school and then advance. English ; housing ; language ; Monsignor Weinzapel ; St. Pius X http://www.texascatholic.com/2016/01/04/obituary-msgr-thomas-w-weinzapfel/ Obituary for Monsignor Thomas Weinzapfel 1266 Going back to school while working full-time BRODY: So while you were still working you went back to school? TRAN: Yeah, I have to go full time, full-time school and full-time job. BRODY: Where did you go to school? TRAN: First school is because I work on computer, that’s what I told you, at the library. I went to the school by, at that time called the Texas Institute. They trained data processor, trained data processor. And I went—let me think—about a year and graduate, still couldn’t find any job other than the same job. Then I went to El Centro Community College. I graduated in three semester. (laughs) BRODY: Wow, that’s fast. You must’ve been studying fast. TRAN: Yeah, three semester. I go for—remember, I work full time too. Then by that time, it improve. However, I continue to go the other school, really not intend to get degree, but intend to learn more stuff so I can improve my skill, not only in technology but also in social activity, things like that. So I went to, let’s see, East Texas [Baptist University] and also go to Dallas University—no, no, it’s at Dallas Baptist University. BRODY: Dallas Baptist? TRAN: Dallas Baptist University. That was very close to—I think it was Grand Prairie, somewhere in there. BRODY: What did you study? TRAN: Oh, studied—let’s see, I forgot what it is. It’s a long time, don’t remember, but the main thing is more or less just little social study. I remember, I took one course with the teacher, communication course, they called it Looking In and Looking Out, I could remember that. (laughs) But just the main thing, but I already have the associate degree from El Centro, so I think that all I need. BRODY: Right, right. But you wanted to learn more and to socialize more. Were your classmates—did you interact very much with your classmates, or were you— TRAN: Oh yeah, same thing you and I here. Of course, I still have accent, but at least I communicated. BRODY: Yes, absolutely. So you had some friends that you knew there. TRAN: Yeah, uh-hm. Sure. BRODY: Are you still in touch with any of those friends? TRAN: Say again? BRODY: Are you still in touch with any of those friends from that time? TRAN: No. It’s been a long time, you’re talking. BRODY: It was a long time ago, yes. TRAN: About forty years now. Associates Degree ; communication ; Dallas Baptist University ; data processing ; education ; El Centro Community College ; employment ; school ; Texas Institute ; work 1424 Tran's leadership in the establishment of St. Peter's Vietnamese Catholic Church in Dallas BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. So I wanted to go back. About the church, were you very involved with the Catholic Church when you were still in Vietnam, or was that something that developed once you got here? TRAN: No. I was a Catholic in Vietnam, but I didn’t really involve to church activity until 1975 when I move here. BRODY: Right, when you got here. TRAN: And not only that, I’m the guy who bought the church for Vietnamese, now the Vietnamese—St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church. BRODY: Wait, so you built the church—you helped— TRAN: No. We bought it from— BRODY: You bought the church? TRAN: Yeah. We bought it from Reinhardt Bible Church, which [St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church] is located on Garland Road and Fuller [Drive]—Garland Road and, I think, Fuller? Oh, [North] Buckner [Boulevard]. Rather easier is, Buckner and Garland Road. And now they still have it. They still meet there in that church. BRODY: Yeah, it’s still there. So the Vietnamese community at St. Pius X in the 1970s, it was growing. So you were the first families, but—first family, and then there came ten more—many more families? TRAN: And it grew quickly because like I said previously, ten families original. Then after that, just go up, and jump up, because I can sponsor somebody else, somebody else sponsor for somebody else, so it’s changing and exponent. BRODY: Right, it grew fast. TRAN: And then we used St. Pius X four PM Sunday Mass. Only one mass. We also used the school for Sunday School in the afternoon. BRODY: In Vietnamese? TRAN: In Vietnamese, yes. And then, I think, in 1995, the community decided to buy their own church. And by that time, we turned from Washington, D.C. after we attend my grandson graduation, and the group of Vietnamese from the community come over to our home and said, “You need to be leader to look for church for us.” And I asked them, “How much money you guys have?” They said “Ninety thousand.” I said, “Ninety thousand, tell me buy a church?” (both laugh) But I think it over and said, “Okay, I’ll buy it. I’ll do it.” And we have—I form a sixteen-member committee to go out and look for church, fundraising, everything else. We bought the church in eighteen months Catholic Church ; Catholicism ; fundraising ; Reinhardt Baptist Church ; religion ; St. Peter's Vietnamese Catholic Church ; St. Pius X https://www.stpetervndal.org/ Website of St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church in Dallas 1583 Traditions and activities of Vietnamese Catholic community in Dallas BRODY: So that community had a lot of cohesion and a desire to stick together, then, and to form their own church. Earlier, as that community was forming, what types of activities and—you know, you mentioned the Mass at four PM and the Sunday School—did you do any—do you remember any other types of traditions and things that happened within that community? TRAN: Well, you mean talking about St. Pius X, right? BRODY: Yes. TRAN: Yeah. The thing beside that, not that much except that maybe when we have the Vietnamese festival in mid-autumn or the Vietnamese new year, they use the facility for the celebrate. And also, I think in May, normally, it’s the month of Mother Mary. So we have the procession, all kind of thing, you know. But when we move to the new church, which is located on Garland Road and near the Buckner, we can have more activity then. BRODY: Yeah, tell me about those activities. What do you remember? TRAN: The—I stay a member of that church, but because I’m living too far away, so I go to church here in Richardson. Once in a while I went out there. My name is still there. (laughs) Then when we moved to have a new church we have a new pastor, we have all kind of activity: teaching Sunday school, all the activity, a woman club, a man club, and Boy Scout and all kinds of stuff. It’s a regular—same with American church. BRODY: Yes, but you replicated everything for the Vietnamese community. TRAN: Yeah, that’s right. Um-hm. Buckner ; Catholic Church ; celebrations ; festivals ; Garland Road ; Mass ; processions ; Sunday School ; traditions ; Vietnamese festival ; Vietnamese New Year 1696 Thoughts about &quot ; Americanization&quot ; /Role of language and culture BRODY: So, like the children that grew up in the Vietnamese Catholic church there, what are you impressions of them? Some people say when the second generation is being raised in another country that they may lose some of their culture. What are your observations about that? BRODY: Right, right. So what do you think are the challenges for the grandkids, for example, having grown, you know, been born here and raised in English? So in trying to preserve the culture and to think about the religion, culture, those types of things, what are the biggest challenges for people who come as refugees, who are immigrants, to try to find that balance? TRAN: Well, it really hard to balance, because the kid born and raised in here, they go to school here, they spend most of their daytime at the school, they’re communicating with the local people here, American kids. So it’s very hard to pull them back, you know? Just some, but basically to me, exception ; not normal, exception. All my grandkid, they speak very little Vietnamese. They just Americanized almost hundred percent. They eat American food, very few, sometimes they eat some Vietnamese food, but only certain items they eat, not like us, we eat everything. BRODY: Right. That’s a common challenge for (both talking). TRAN: Yeah, that’s right. It’s very hard to maintain that—that what we call the tapestry here. You know, people coming in, blending into society, and that’s it. No exception. TRAN: Well, I agree with that, because seeing here, thing that I’d like to mention to you that—when I buy that church for them, I think we probably used about max thirty years. So you have all the age, people phase out and kids kept growing up, they adapt to a new culture and they can blend into society complete, but it’s really not that—that not true anymore. BRODY: That’s not what happened? TRAN: No, it’s not. Of course, it Americanized somewhat, but it still continue to work with the church, come to the church and enjoy all kind of activity, except it not a hundred percent. It phase out somewhat, but I see it still going. BRODY: That’s great. Are there new families coming in still? TRAN: Oh yeah, sure, yeah. They tend to go to the church every Sunday, and they also involve to other activity, but the Sundays are the main thing. Like you said, some Vietnamese kids don’t even speak Vietnamese anymore. BRODY: That’s true. So how do you feel— TRAN: Because the problem with the parent, they don’t speak Vietnamese at home. Some of them, they’re afraid the kid don’t speak English, so they try to work with the kid at home, and soon the kid forget the Vietnamese. My family, all my kids speak English and also Vietnamese. But they cannot write Vietnamese, they cannot read. But they speak very well. I speak Vietnamese at home with my wife, my mother, so they get along with it. But I don’t know about next generation, about my grandkid. That’s different story. BRODY: Right, right. So what do you think are the challenges for the grandkids, for example, having grown, you know, been born here and raised in English? So in trying to preserve the culture and to think about the religion, culture, those types of things, what are the biggest challenges for people who come as refugees, who are immigrants, to try to find that balance? TRAN: Well, it really hard to balance, because the kid born and raised in here, they go to school here, they spend most of their daytime at the school, they’re communicating with the local people here, American kids. So it’s very hard to pull them back, you know? Just some, but basically to me, exception ; not normal, exception. All my grandkid, they speak very little Vietnamese. They just Americanized almost hundred percent. They eat American food, very few, sometimes they eat some Vietnamese food, but only certain items they eat, not like us, we eat everything. BRODY: Right. That’s a common challenge for (both talking). TRAN: Yeah, that’s right. It’s very hard to maintain that—that what we call the tapestry here. You know, people coming in, blending into society, and that’s it. No exception. BRODY: Right. So what to you are the—you know, even in the time that you initially first came, what were some of the key pieces of Vietnamese culture and lifestyle that you wanted to make sure that you carried on, even though you were in a new place? TRAN: Well, the thing is, the way the family of Vietnamese is, they try to have the hierarchy ; grandparent, parent, kid. But it not in here. We try to do that, but I doubt that we can maintain it long term. BRODY: Here in the United States? TRAN: Yes. BRODY: Why? TRAN: Well, because—(laughs) it’s Americanized. They different story, different culture. And I can’t say bad or good, but it’s culture. We can’t change the culture. BRODY: Right. You’re in a new place and— TRAN: Yeah. And back home, we have—the first person had to learn how to become good human being first, before technology, before everything, but first. The second in there is the train, your education and talent, it varies and so on, so on. The people lacking good character, it couldn’t be good people. So that’s the—it’s different with Vietnamese, they main thing differently. I don’t know good or bad, but that the way we go. BRODY: The different mindset, it sounds like, that you’re saying. So as—go ahead, I’m sorry. TRAN: Yeah, let me say just one example. One of my last daughter get married last year. And she asked me for the list of the people she will invite. And I gave her the list, but I forgot one important thing: that I had to put my name on the outside label. So when she get pick up the list, guest list, and got the invitation, she put her and her husband address on the envelope and invitation inside. She mail out—and some people don’t even know, recognize her. See what I’m saying? BRODY: Right. TRAN: They don’t do that in Vietnam. They don’t do that, period. BRODY: From the father. TRAN: Because some of my relative, they even don’t know her name, because she young. She is young. And I have to call every single one and apologize for her, I said I don’t intend to do that, just forgive us for that. I call every one of them. BRODY: Yeah, you called every single one? TRAN: (laughs) Every single one. BRODY: Because it was a cultural misunderstanding? TRAN: Yeah. The younger one, no problem, with her brother and sister, cousin. Shouldn’t been a problem, but the people who are, like, my age or above, I had to call. Some of them, they were open. They said, “Don’t worry about it.” But they do come. BRODY: But they came? That’s good. TRAN: Yeah, they came. (laughs) BRODY: Yeah, once they understood, right? That’s an interesting—an interesting story because your— TRAN: Now, in our country they cannot do that, period. BRODY: Right. That would not happen, right? TRAN: It would not happen back home. adaptation ; Americanization ; assimilation ; cultural differences ; culture ; English ; food ; language ; misunderstandings ; Vietnamese language 2125 Thoughts about social class BRODY: That makes me think—this is not the same subject at all, but I wanted to ask you about your thoughts about social class. When you came here to the United States, we talked about how your job was quite different than what you had been doing in Vietnam, but did you have—do you remember anything about your observations about the differences in the United States regarding social class? TRAN: You mean the poor, rich, middle class, so on, so forth? BRODY: Yes. TRAN: Yeah. The United States, I want to say it’s a—we don’t see that that much here. You go outside on the street, you see people walking around, you don’t know who rich or who not. They dress somewhat the same. They drive almost similar vehicle, you know? Even maybe older a few years, but not much different. Back home, social class is very clear. If you own a car, you’re the top of the class. You walk, then you low class. (both laugh) BRODY: So it’s very easy to tell, right? TRAN: And the way you dress, old clothes, new clothes, people ride bicycle compared to motorcycle, compared to vehicle, so— BRODY: There’s a hierarchy. TRAN: Yeah, hierarchy. And now we’re here, and you can’t tell that much. You have billion dollar, I don’t have, but I think you and I is almost the same. Same level. BRODY: Right. Why do you think that is? TRAN: It is the graded you here. They don’t look at the people because they don’t expect people be that person rich, or poor. BRODY: It’s just based on the person. TRAN: Yeah. BRODY: So did you feel like in your getting to the United States, did you move from one social class to another? Or were you kind of the same? TRAN: It not only social class, but because I didn’t move that much—except I do get some better position in later life but I don’t think that a different social class. I make enough money to feed the family, brought the kid up and something like that. I’m not rich because I’m not—if you want to be rich in this society you have to do business, not to work for somebody, and get rich—it don’t work that way. BRODY: Right. So that wasn’t much of a factor in your thinking? TRAN: That’s true, yeah. hierarchy ; inequality ; poverty ; social class ; social mobility ; wealth 2279 Parenting/Experiences with education system BRODY: Yeah, or your experience. So you had four kids come with you from Vietnam, and then they were in school here. What are some of—you talked a little bit about some of the differences between the schools, you know, serving lunch here and things like that. How about the academics? What were your experiences with teachers and with your kids as they were going to school? TRAN: They different, too. Very, very different. On the same subject, after the four kid came here, we had two more coming here. BRODY: Oh, okay, two more that were born here? TRAN: Two daughters, yes. And the one who came in ’75, we had second daughter in ’76. Then ten year later we have another one girl—’86, so ten year apart. And all married and got out. BRODY: Oh, congratulations. (laughs) TRAN: The oldest one fifty, I think he fifty on January the ninth, a couple of more day. He’s fifty. The youngest one, she thirty-three. Thirty-three in April. Tax day, she born on tax day. BRODY: On tax day. (laughs) TRAN: Right. She not here ; she’s in Maryland. BRODY: In Maryland, I see. So school-wise, were the—was the transition for your kids smooth into the school system? What were some challenges, if there were any? TRAN: You mean the— BRODY: The kids in the school, or dealing with teachers or academics. TRAN: Oh, I think they got along very well. They had no problem whatsoever. Through interacting with all the American kid, no problem at all. Matter of fact, the first six month after my first son get in first grade, in a public school in east Dallas, the principal recognize him as a good citizen. So it’s only six month. BRODY: Six months, he was a good citizen. TRAN: Very quickly, you know? BRODY: Yes, yes, that’s great. TRAN: The teacher love him, he do so well in school even. And somehow, they pick up English very quickly. BRODY: Yes, kids do, right? How about you? Speaking of language learning, you already were quite good at English but you, you know, had to transition into all the things that you had to do here. academics ; children ; education ; English ; parenting ; school system ; schools ; teachers 2411 Learning American customs and culture BRODY: Yes, kids do, right? How about you? Speaking of language learning, you already were quite good at English but you, you know, had to transition into all the things that you had to do here. TRAN: Yeah, that’s right. BRODY: What were some of the ways that you tried to improve your English or work on that? TRAN: (laughs) Yeah, just read paper and watch television, you know. I probably went to school too. But it’s hard. I mean, the thing of the culture, custom, those are hard to get used to— BRODY: Even more than language? TRAN: —it take a long time. But other than that, I don’t think English ever was a problem with. I mean— BRODY: What were some of the customs that were confusing to you? TRAN: (laughs) Oh, yeah. Let me see. The customs, you know, one of the only—the holiday, the Christmas Day? Yeah. We had to have a very good in the decoration and Christmas tree and gifts and parties, so on, so forth. We had very little back home. We had so much food here ; as a matter of fact, over-full. It’s too much. BRODY: Right. Too much food? (laughs) TRAN: And we had little back home. (laughs) Over-gifts, you know? Some of my grandkid had, maybe, twenty gift. Back home? Zero. BRODY: Zero gifts. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) So the culture is different. But they—I mean, even they don’t have anything, but they do behave themselves. BRODY: That’s interesting. So yeah, the holidays are different here. So did the Men’s Club at St. Pius or your neighbors or people at work or school, is that the main way that you learned about American customs? TRAN: That’s true, yeah. That’s true. By interacting with people from church and other organization, at work. I think they do train. Workshop is the main thing, because you be in there eight-hour a day. But it didn’t take that much long for me to learn to get around and accustomed to the custom, and so—and, you know, it’s hard to start a new life with my age—at thirty-two, by that time—to start over. BRODY: Yeah. You really did. TRAN: It got difficult, very, very difficult, because I have a big family too. BRODY: Yep. A lot of responsibility and a lot to learn all at once. Christmas ; culture ; customs ; English ; food ; gifts ; holidays ; language ; television 2584 Role of Tran's mother in the family's life BRODY: So your mother was here with you, you said, as well. Did she live in the same house? TRAN: She used to stay with us from ’75 until, I think—I want to say until ’88. Then she moved to stay with my sister. My sister, by that time, she married, she had a couple kid, so she bought a house and my mother move over there and we stay up here by ourselves, and the last kid, which is now thirty-two, thirty-three years old, we put in daycare. It was two years of age. At St. Pius X school, they have daycare. BRODY: They have daycare there. So you guys stayed in that community, you didn’t move. TRAN: Right. We stayed in that community until—let’s see, 1998. Then we moved out to Richardson twenty years ago. daycare ; grandmother ; intergenerational households ; mother 2651 Memories of Monsignor Weinzapfel at St. Pius X Catholic Church BRODY: Okay. In that—the pastor at St. Pius X was Monsignor Weinzapfel, is that right? TRAN: Yes. BRODY: Tell me about your memories of him. I’ve heard he was very involved with the Vietnamese community. TRAN: Oh yeah, he’s a (laughs) very good person. He very active with the helping Vietnamese to settle. He let us use a lot of facility that we need for our activity, including the church, and didn’t charge us that much, you know. It was a collection during Mass and give some back to him. He always helped the Vietnamese in way that’s try to settle down in this area, and I really was good friends with him. BRODY: You were good friends with him? TRAN: Yeah. Anything he need for Vietnamese, he call me. He said—anybody confusing, he said, “Call Sao.” ___________(??), but sometime later, when we moved to Richardson, we did invite him to come over to have supper with us and things like that. BRODY: Oh, that’s nice. Why was he so interested, do you think, in helping the Vietnamese community settle down here? TRAN: Well, I think that one thing that normally the Catholics try to do that, work with refugees, but I think the group of Vietnamese were the first group he deal with. By that time, he about midfifties, still fairly young. So sometimes he rode a bicycle from church to our home and I was at work and my wife, my mother, and the kid at home, except the one in school. He just speak English and none of my [family] member speak English. So he call over, said, “Let’s say a prayer.” So my people say in Vietnamese, he say in English. (laughs) Then he bless and ride bicycle, go home. (Brody laughs) He’s a funny guy. BRODY: (laughs) So he was a flexible guy as far as prayers go and language, too. That’s a great story. Catholic Church ; English ; English language ; flexibility ; friendships ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; refugees ; St. Pius X ; Vietnamese language ; Vietnamese refugees 2791 Reflections on discrimination and racism BRODY: So I wanted to ask you, on a different note, your family or you, do you remember any experiences of discrimination or racism as you were trying to settle here? TRAN: I don’t think so, no. BRODY: Not at all? That’s good. Why do you think that it went so smoothly, in that regard, for your family? TRAN: Well, I probably—basically, the reason we didn’t run into the discrimination problem, like you’re just saying, basically, is just lucky, you know? BRODY: Hm, yeah, lucky. TRAN: Just lucky, you get lucky. They could deal with a group, don’t have this kind of problem. That’s the only thing I can say, because we have—I see people dealing with that, but we’re not in that. So very hard to recognize discrimination. BRODY: Well, that’s fortunate that you did not experience it ; that’s good. Do you have much interaction, back then, with other groups that are discriminated against in the community? African Americans or— TRAN: No, I don’t have that opportunity. I even involved to a lot of activities that help the Vietnamese in the area. I also join the—what they call—Rotary Club. I was vice president, White Rock Rotary Club. BRODY: Oh, good. What kind of activities did the White Rock Rotary Club do? TRAN: You mean the— BRODY: What did you do with them? What was your— TRAN: Oh, we have other activity. We go out, help people, and thing like that, basically. The Rotary Club ; I think you know that club, right? BRODY: Yes, I know the Rotary Club, yes. driscrimination ; racism ; White Rock Rotary Club 2904 Tran's role as a leader in the early Vietnamese community in Dallas BRODY: So going back to the—you were such a leader in the St. Pius community and the Vietnamese community, and people came to you with questions and the church came to you with questions if there were things that people were going through. What were some of the sorts of problems that you were faced with sometimes when they asked you for your help? TRAN: Well, the thing is sometimes they—you mean dealing with my people who had some problem? Well, the thing is, sometimes they, sadly, would more expectation than it should be, and they should know my capacity is limit, you know. So sometimes they asked a little bit more than I can do. BRODY: What were the kind of things that they were asking for help with? TRAN: Well, the thing sometimes they’d get me to bring kid to the hospital, but I got busy with other stuff, you know? And I can understand. I mean, most people didn’t speak English by that time. But I couldn’t cover everything. I do help that a lot, but only so much I can do. BRODY: Yeah. So sometimes you were asked to do a lot of things— TRAN: Yeah, family have work, so on and so forth. (laughs) BRODY: School, right. So your capacity was limited. TRAN: Yeah, was limit. I wanted to do more, but it’s hard. So I think one family that, he came here with his wife and no kids, left all the kid behind, and he speak no English whatsoever. And so I think by the time he work for Bishop Lynch High School—Catholic high school, down further to the road. I’m not sure you know that high school or not. Bishop Lynch. BRODY: Bishop Lynch High School? TRAN: Yeah, high school. And work there at as a janitor. You know, the _________(??) And every time they had a problem they call me. The sister who in charge that school call me too, so they’re trying to phase out the problem, you know? | BRODY: Yeah, so you’re trying to do your job, to take care of your family and still help. TRAN: But I do help a lot of people, except that only so much I can do. BRODY: Absolutely. Well, the community grew so much, also. I would imagine that there were so—over time, more and more people who had things that they needed help with. (laughs) TRAN: Oh yeah, that’s right, yeah. What I’m saying is only the beginning of that first—maybe first two year or so. After that, you know, they got a lot of young kid who speak English and learn more English, they get used to the life in United States, so they don’t ask for help that much anymore. BRODY: Right, right, because they have other people to turn to as well. So you had your hands full at the beginning, right? (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. It phased out in about a couple of year. I had to raise my family and put kid in school. (laughs) Bishop Lynch high school ; English ; English language ; help ; hospital ; language ; leadership ; problems ; schools ; Vietnamese community 3081 American citizenship and identity BRODY: So, your kids—when—this is a question that we’ve kind of talked about a little bit already, but when you think about yourself and your—did you become an American citizen eventually? TRAN: Yes. In order to become American citizen we have to stay in the United States five years. And then you got the—I think, got green card, and then take another five year to apply for citizenship. So we all become citizenship in, I want to say, probably 1986. And only me, my wife, and the rest of the kids, they automatically come in, become citizens. BRODY: The kids, right? So when you think of yourself now after you’ve gotten the American citizenship, what does it mean to you to be American? Or do you think of yourself as American? Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese, Vietnamese American? TRAN: Oh, it’s mixed. It’s mixed feelings. BRODY: Yeah? Tell me about your feelings about that? TRAN: Well, I’m very happy to become American citizenship, because that’s the goal, to stay here permanently. And if I can stay here without citizenship, you cannot quite well. So I’m very happy with it, and I’d like to tell you another story, becoming citizenship. When I grant first citizenship, my company throw a party. I think about sixty people come over and enjoy it—a reception, rather. And we all—they all happy. But they ask me to make a speech, and I didn’t prepare for it. And I tell people, “Lady and gentlemen, I’m very happy to become American citizenship. But when I first come here, I don’t have nothing. But you took me in, give me your country, give me the church to practice, give me job, and give me friendship.” Some of the women cried. (laughs) BRODY: That sounds beautiful. That’s beautiful, and you didn’t prepare. (laughs) TRAN: Not even at all. BRODY: That was from the heart. Right. So your mixed feelings about both of those things. TRAN: Yeah, mixed feelings. I still bleed all(??) Vietnamese, but I still like to become American citizenship. BRODY: Yeah, and this is—your life has been here at this point, so—and your family. TRAN: I haven’t been back home yet. BRODY: Really? You haven’t been back? TRAN: Yeah, the thing is—the thing I—all my brother, sister, my mother here, my wife here, my kids here. My wife only have one brother here. The rest of her brother, they’re back home. We do communicate once in a while, we would call them, talk with them and thing like that. But that’s—I think she have one, two, three, she have four brother— BRODY: Back there? TRAN: Yeah. She’s only girl in the family. BRODY: And she’s the only one who came here too. American citizenship ; American identity ; citizenship ; coworkers ; friendship ; green card ; identity ; naturalized citizen ; naturalizing ; party ; reception ; US citizenship ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese identity 3305 Tran discusses his wife's work experience in Texas Did she work after she came here? TRAN: Oh she work at—let’s see. When she give the first daughter here, 1976, she worked—at ’78, she started work. Because I myself, I am unable to cover everything, because my salary is still very low by that. And she go work for some company doing some electronic work, like assembly, put things together. She work until the year 2000, she left the workforce. BRODY: Wow. So she had her own— TRAN: Yeah. She’d stay home, take care of the kids and so on, so forth. BRODY: Yes, that’s interesting. TRAN: Take care of the kids, and take care grandkid. BRODY: And grandkids again. (laughs) A mom’s work is never done. assembly work ; childcare ; children ; employment ; jobs ; motherhood ; women ; work 3368 Thoughts about politics So with—in terms of politics, have you been involved in politics here in the United States? TRAN: No. All we do is go voting, that’s about it. BRODY: Just vote. Well, that’s an involvement— TRAN: No activity BRODY: Are there differences that you’ve observed or were you particularly involved in Vietnam with politics? TRAN: No, in Vietnam I don’t involve in politic at all, but over here I do vote. That’s all. political engagement ; poltics ; vote ; voting 3393 Tran reflects on his life, family, and accomplishments BRODY: Yeah. So when you think about yourself and your identity and all of the experiences that you’ve had in your life, what are some of the thoughts that you reflect on about, you know, as you look back on your life? TRAN: Well, I look at my life. I have these friend that say that I really accomplished that much. It happens a lot, because you change from life of Vietnam to United States and get used to here, and set up the family and raise them in a well-mannered—all of my kid went to school and a lot of them graduate school. I think only one didn’t have a graduate degree. Five of them— BRODY: That’s pretty impressive, yeah. Did you tell them that was an expectation? TRAN: No, they go to school and just encourage them, but I never tell them, “You have to do this,” no. Matter of fact, I have two medical doctors, two lawyer, and one teacher, and one business. BRODY: Wow. That’s an impressive family. TRAN: Yeah. And they all kids, they marry to five doctors. So end up five doctor in my family. No, marry three doctor, then that’s two and three together, make five doctor, and two lawyer. BRODY: Wow. You’ve got it covered. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) BRODY: So you never told them, “I expect—” TRAN: No. I don’t want to change them. “You have to become this.” Sometimes I try to talk them, encourage them, but I don’t force them. I don’t force them to—certain people forcing kid learn certain subject, but I don’t do that as a trait(??). The same thing with when they get married. Of course, I like the person for those who marry, but I cannot tell them, “You have to marry this.” That’s the line. They make mistake, they learn from. But can you imagine if you tell the kid, “You’ve got to marry this poor girl or this boy,” and five year later they don’t work out very well, who really carry the responsibility? So I don’t want to do that. They’re on their own. Not only that, when they marry, they on their own. I don’t stick my nose in their family. That is the way it should be. They make mistake, they pay for it. I keep telling kid today, tomorrow you decide to go buy helicopter, go buy it if you can pay for it. But I won’t stop you. (laughs) BRODY: Right. So a wise father. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) It’s true. I would never call and said, “What are you doing?” No. I call and say hello and things like that. Otherwise, I can’t survive with that many kids. accomplishments ; education ; encouragement ; family ; fatherhood ; parenting ; success 3587 Changes in the Vietnamese community in Dallas/Reflections on diversity and American culture BRODY: So I want to go back just briefly to talk about the Vietnamese community in Dallas. In terms of your own perceptions, the community as it’s changed from the 1970s to today, what is the—what are some of the characteristics of the Vietnamese community in Dallas? TRAN: Well, it’s very hard to say, but I mean it’s kind of mixed bag, you know, a lot of people. It truly good, move to forward, but some people left behind. So you can tie those together, and to me, if people move forward they seem very good, you know? They seem very good, they seem get along well, they do act as good people, American people as well. But some people left behind because they don’t have enough education to adapt, adapt the new culture. So they’re left behind, they leave the _____ for not bring a light(??). BRODY: So there’s a difference even within— TRAN: But not that many, okay? Them different. BRODY: Do you feel like the community is unified in terms of how they interact with the larger society? TRAN: They do, but not hundred percent, you know? It’s always a crack here and there. BRODY: Yeah. Are there differences in terms of people belonging to different religions— TRAN: Different religion, different education level, different knowledge, it is complete different. BRODY: Yeah, that’s interesting, especially because the larger community in this area has gotten very diverse and a lot of different groups not— TRAN: Oh yeah. BRODY: I think in 1975 it wasn’t as diverse, so the Vietnamese were the first. TRAN: That’s true, because it’s so many ethnic group come in after ’75 besides Vietnamese, you know? Middle East and Chinese and Indian and Australia, all kind. It once can be Europe, whatever. It’s a big culture. BRODY: Yeah. It’s very different now than it was when you first arrived. TRAN: Oh, yes. It is difficult, but it’s good for United States. That’s the way United States should be. That’s the way—it produce a lot good people, because they mix blood, mix culture. You look at people in Europe, they so pure. So therefore, it’s tougher for them to deal with. Over here it mix. They bring all kind of culture in, bring all kind of language in. I don’t know how many languages the people in the United States they speak. BRODY: Right. Many many. TRAN: It’s over the hundreds. BRODY: Yeah. So immigration is a key part of— TRAN: Oh yeah, there’s no doubt about that. The reason make United States strong is because the mixed culture. If you look at the—if you look more, lean toward the interior you see all the, like, chicken. When they mix blood, chicken strong and big. But they pure blood, it’s skinny. (both laugh) That’s one way to explore the thinking, you know? BRODY: So some diversity, right? TRAN: Yeah. You need that. adaptation ; community ; culture ; Dallas ; difference ; diversity ; education ; immigration ; language ; languages ; religion ; unity ; Vietnamese community Baylor University Institute for Oral History Sao Tran Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody January 7, 2019 Richardson, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 7, 2019. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Sao Tran. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History, and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. Alright, Mr. Tran, I&#039 ; m so happy that you could join me here today and we could record this interview. To start with, could you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam, what you your work was and what you were doing as the Vietnam War wound down? |00:00:36| TRAN: Well, when I become the working, I do school teacher for one year and, as you know, teacher didn&#039 ; t pay that much back home. And then I left the teaching job, I go work for the US consulate general office, but the branch office in the Hội An. That&#039 ; s part of the historical city now, Hội An, Quảng Nam. I worked there as a interpreter and translator, and then I become office manager and then I got transferred to Danang in-- well, this in 1972. So I start in Hội An, 1967, and transfer to Danang, 1972 as the position of admin specialist. Then I stay there until &#039 ; 75, the company--my country fall to the communist side, so we got evacuated. But before we got evacuated outside of Vietnam we go through Saigon, it one of the most north of Vietnam, and from there we flew to Guam and to Camp Pendleton, and then sponsored by St. Pius X [Catholic Parish] in East Texas. So we came here-- BRODY: In Texas. So when you finally made it to Texas-- TRAN: --I believe, June, 1975. |00:02:10| BRODY: So the evacuation itself--so you had to make your way to Saigon first? TRAN: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. The thing and what happened is it--I think in March, should be in early March, I send my family to Saigon, and then I stay there about a couple of weeks, because I had to stay behind to help with the local employee. I told you that I was administration specialist, I had to help my local employee for evacuation. So I stayed there until most of them left, and then I have take the last flight, flew out from Danang to Saigon, and from Saigon I stayed one month, and then again I involve the evacuation, so I send my family out two day ahead. I stayed back to help all the local employee evacuation with their family. Then I flew out--American officer said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry about it, we&#039 ; ll locate your family.&quot ; However, that what they say, but not exactly happen. Two days later, after my family left the Vietnam, I flew out, and, like, we flew through Guam, which is naval base. Meanwhile, I don&#039 ; t know where my family by that time. BRODY: Oh my gosh. You must have been so worried. TRAN: Yeah. I was very worried. BRODY: How many people were--how many of your family members had you sent ahead? TRAN: Yeah, the--in total, my family is ten, including me. We have four kid, one brother, two sister, and mother. So ten people. BRODY: Okay. And your wife, of course? TRAN: And my wife. Really, I was confused and worried when I was in Guam, and I look all over, I talk with all kind of US official to try and locate my family, but nobody knew. So two day later, somehow because the Subic Bay&#039 ; s refugee camp is full, because most of Vietnamese go out through Philippine, it closer. So it&#039 ; s full, they had--so what they do from in that island(??), they send my family to the Guam from Philippine. So where I was, Sunday morning I wake up and walk around the camp, I catch my oldest son lie on the cot in military tent. That is where we get reunited. And then later, about two days later, we process paperwork and flew to Camp Pendleton in California. And we stay there about thirty day or so, and then we find a sponsor, I think somewhere in June 1975, we found--original sponsor was the University of Plano. And I think the president of the Plano University by that time, Dorothy Morris. That&#039 ; s very little university, Plano, and I think a few years later they phase out, it&#039 ; s sold. I stay in Plano University for group-- with other people, maybe sixty people. That only temp advisor. They had to go out and look for permanent--I&#039 ; m sorry, temporary sponsor. They had to go out and look for permanent sponsor. So there, the St. Pius X jump in and sponsor our family, because the family is so big, ten people, and nobody can sign with that big, because so big for them to carry that responsibility. So finally, St. Pius X took over and then we move from Plano to east Dallas, which where the St. Pius X church located. |00:06:33| BRODY: Yes. So what was that--how did that feel for you, when you got that news that St. Pius church was going to sponsor your family? TRAN: A matter of fact, it&#039 ; s very happy that we sponsored by the church because nobody really want to carry that big responsibility except the church, because they&#039 ; re a group of people. They have manpower, they have resource to help us. So they go out and look for house, put our need to live, they find familiar food for us to eat, and then I find a job. (laughs) |00:07:11| BRODY: Oh, what was your job? What job did you find? TRAN: The first job I found is the--they call computer operator, but that was the--in those days it&#039 ; s mainframe, not PC [personal computer] nowadays. And the main job is to work in the tape library. BRODY: The tape library? TRAN: Library, yeah, and the big twenty-four-hundred feet--the big one, big tape. When they call the number on the drive, you go into a library, you get the number, hang it on, and when it dismount, you take it up, put it back in the library. It is simple, but it&#039 ; s basically the heavy, physical work, because you walk all day long with heavy tape, a lot of that big, heavy tape. (laughs) BRODY: So that&#039 ; s pretty different than what you were doing in Vietnam. TRAN: Yeah, yeah, that&#039 ; s right. Having office with people. BRODY: Yeah, you were working in an office and administration in Vietnam. How did that--how was the transition for you, or what were you--what did you feel in finding that job? Were you happy when you found the computer job? TRAN: Well, I can&#039 ; t feel(??) happy or not ; I had to have something to eat for the kid, you know, the family. So I think it&#039 ; s fine at the beginning. It&#039 ; s hard, but it&#039 ; s okay. BRODY: Yeah. You survived and provided for your family, right? TRAN: Yeah, it&#039 ; s--I think they pay about three dollar and quarter an hour. BRODY: Right. This is still 1975? TRAN: Yeah. |00:08:44| BRODY: Yes. So I want to go back real quick. I mean, the story that you told about finding your family by accident in Guam is pretty astonishing. What was the moment like? Did you see them, or did they see you? TRAN: The thing, by that time the Red Cross, they give you a tent, I think only a single- person tent. If you have family they give you a big tent. I had a little tent. And then I wake up real early in the morning, probably about five, six o&#039 ; clock, and I keep walking around the area, just don&#039 ; t know what to do. And I walk by a big tent, military, it&#039 ; s canvas, and I saw my son lying on the couch, military couch. He slept-- BRODY: He was sleeping. He was just sleeping. TRAN: Yeah, and suddenly I found them, family, yeah. Basically, like miracle, you know? BRODY: Sounds like it, and they must have been so relieved as well. TRAN: Yeah, they do. Yeah, and they said--well, two days later we process the paper through the immigration service and we flew to-- BRODY: Camp Pendleton. TRAN: --to San Diego. Is that San Diego? Camp Pendleton, yeah. |00:09:57| BRODY: Yes, yes, near San Diego. So--okay, so back to east Dallas, then. So the sponsor was the church that sponsored your family. Were there any specific people that were sponsoring you, or just the church in general? TRAN: I think that by that time they passed aside our family to what they call Men&#039 ; s Club, the Men&#039 ; s Club. And they had the Men&#039 ; s Club work closely with us to try to help us through the--find food, find house, and thing like that, get try to settle in the area, get familiar with the custom and try to help. Some of my family didn&#039 ; t--most of my--all of my family don&#039 ; t speak English except me, and so they helped teaching English and do a health check, whatever. And it really hard for me by that time because, like I said, nobody speak English except me. So I had to buy groceries, I had--everything, I had to do it ; everything. BRODY: It&#039 ; s all on your shoulders there. TRAN: Except cooking. They do cooking. |00:11:05| BRODY: They did the cooking. What were some of the most challenging things about, for example, buying groceries? Obviously, time, but was it--what were some of the biggest surprises that you experienced when you were shopping for your family? TRAN: Well the thing that surprising because they didn&#039 ; t--back in Vietnam, they don&#039 ; t price stuff like we do here. So easy, very easy to do shopping here rather than back home. Back home, they don&#039 ; t know price and they can tell you price, you have to keep negotiate, negotiate, and that&#039 ; s when you buy ten item, take about two or three hour before you get through ten item (Brody laughs) because you keep barking back and forth. (both laugh) Over here, you see price, whether you like or not, that&#039 ; s all--they don&#039 ; t change the price. BRODY: It seems straightforward, yes. TRAN: Yes. Ten dollar is ten dollar. It&#039 ; s easier. BRODY: Yes. So the Men&#039 ; s Club, the people in the Men&#039 ; s Club ; were there particular leaders in that group that kind of took you along and showed you how to do the things? TRAN: Yeah, the Men&#039 ; s Club, I think the president of Men&#039 ; s Club by that time, Mr. Travis Harmon. Travis Harmon, he&#039 ; s president, he worked very closely with us--of course, you have other members helping with, but he the main guy. We need anything, we call him, he help. But we try to limit how have had to call because anything we can do, we try to do ourselves, because the big family like that, you can call and you don&#039 ; t want to bother them. |00:12:45| BRODY: Right. So the household, you were the only one who spoke English, and yet you had all the kids. How did you navigate getting them into school and having them enrolled and working on their schoolwork? TRAN: Yeah, at first at the early--I think a couple of lady in the parish help us through process to register kid in school. And then after that, we had the walk from our home to the school because it not too far away. I want to say about mile and a half. BRODY: Okay. Not too far at all. TRAN: Yeah. However, we came from hot weather country, and in the morning here, even in, let&#039 ; s say, spring, it still very cold. So my wife had to bring the kid to walk to school and come back. And that&#039 ; s cold for her. BRODY: That&#039 ; s cold--it&#039 ; s cold for her, for sure. The kids get used to it, I guess. TRAN: Yeah, but they got used very quickly. |00:13:58| BRODY: Yes. Is it different having kids in school in Vietnam versus in the United States? What were some of the key differences? TRAN: Oh yeah, it different. Much different. We come from the country not quite wealthy a lot, and the wealthy in our country, so the life of the school is different, the class different. Over here, school feed kid. They supply everything in public school, book and everything. We didn&#039 ; t have to buy anything. And we make low income, we fill out application, ask for the lunch exempt, reducing, whatever, but they have to do something back home. Back home they have to walk home and eat lunch and come back. |00:14:46| BRODY: Right, it&#039 ; s very different, yes. When you were working, did you experience any--did you interact very much with other Americans, or were you primarily with other Vietnamese refugees? What was your work experience like? TRAN: The working--I work strictly with all American, no Vietnamese around at all because that really an oil company, what they call Sun Oil Company, and their headquarter is in--I want to say in Philadelphia, Northeast. But they have the data center in Oklahoma--Tulsa, Oklahoma. They relocate data center from Tulsa to Dallas, and I think on Empire Central [Drive] and I-30 [Interstate 30], right. Because they just relocate, they need manpower. A lot of low, low-class employees. (laughs) They don&#039 ; t want to come here, they want to fool around with. So they had vacant. That&#039 ; s why they hired me and my brother, both. No need to train, anything, just only group of number, hang the tape, pick the tape, put on tape right and dismount and put it back in. That&#039 ; s all we had to do. BRODY: That&#039 ; s all you had to do, yes. TRAN: Sometimes we have the time to clean the tape drive, we put the tape back in the library by the number. Make sure you put in proper number so next time you can locate. BRODY: Right, easily. TRAN: Sometimes it&#039 ; s part of misfound, take a half day to look for it. (both laugh) BRODY: That must be frustrating. So your other coworkers were mostly Americans, other than your brother? TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s right. Only my brother. But we in different shift. |00:16:40| BRODY: Right, so--oh right, different shifts. So what was it--were you friendly with the other Americans? TRAN: Oh yeah, they were good, it&#039 ; s fine. BRODY: So tell me about your--what that was like, your work environment and your relationships. TRAN: It very good, because the thing is, the--I think the first year we came to that data center, one of the tape hanger, he&#039 ; s a senior in the group. And he was actually a marine who come from--return from Vietnam. And he said, &quot ; Sao, I want to give you something.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What do you want me give?&quot ; &quot ; I give you a car.&quot ; BRODY: He gave you a car? TRAN: Yeah, he had Volkswagen, you know, the old Beetle? He gave me the Beetle Volkswagen. And by that time, he lived in Lewisville. So we go out to Lewisville, pick up the Volkswagen, and I drive for about two or three years. It&#039 ; s a very good car. And by the time me and my family get bigger, so I had to buy some station wagon. Then I gave that Volkswagen to somebody else. I didn&#039 ; t sell, you know? BRODY: Wow. So that&#039 ; s very generous-- TRAN: Yeah, it is. |00:17:54| BRODY: --he just--why do you think he gave you the Volkswagen? TRAN: He said he&#039 ; d love to help us, because he came from Vietnam. He had returned from Vietnam, rather. And he&#039 ; d love to help us. And not only that, but the first Christmas, the data center, I think they collect money to help us buy the--for a TV set, black and white, and buy a whole bunch of food for us and feed one of the lunch before Christmas. So I brought the TV home for the kids and look at--they watch it. BRODY: Oh wow, they must have been thrilled. TRAN: Yeah, it&#039 ; s small, about twelve inch, but it&#039 ; s good. BRODY: Yes, that&#039 ; s great. So that sounds like it was a very welcoming experience, your whole experience. TRAN: Yeah, it was, it was. BRODY: Were you worried that--as you were coming, you know, making your way to Texas with the different stops that you made, were you--what were some of your thoughts as you were coming over here? Were you worried that it wasn&#039 ; t going to be welcoming or that it might be hard? TRAN: At first I do, I did. But after I contact with people around me, I feel very comfortable with and they like, I ask for help if I need to, and they were ready to help us anytime we need. But like I said, I tried not to ask so much. I chose to limit myself. BRODY: That&#039 ; s good, that&#039 ; s good. So the--your main interaction was with the workplace and the church, it sounds like. TRAN: Church, main thing, you&#039 ; re right. |00:19:33| BRODY: So tell me more about your relationships at St. Pius X. TRAN: Well, with St. Pius X, I had made contact with the pastor of that church and everything related to the Vietnamese, he&#039 ; d call upon me, because I&#039 ; m the guy who would speak English, the rest of them speak somewhat, not very well. BRODY: That&#039 ; s Monsignor? TRAN: Yeah. So any problem with the Vietnamese or they need some help and they talk with this pastor or whoever in the parish office and they don&#039 ; t understand, they call me. They always call me. (laughs) BRODY: So you knew what was going on in the community because you were helping-- TRAN: Yeah, it&#039 ; s like I could relay back to them easier. I think the original group who came to St. Pius X by that time is ten family. But I&#039 ; m the guy who come first. The first family. BRODY: You were the first family. |00:20:33| TRAN: And they had rented house for us, it&#039 ; s $175 a month. Three bedroom, only one bath for ten people. (laughs) BRODY: Wow. (laughs) That must&#039 ; ve been crowded. TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s true. Yeah, we stayed there a couple of year. Or course, the first few months, they pay the rent but after that we had to pick up the bill. BRODY: But by then you&#039 ; ve got your job and-- TRAN: Yeah, I&#039 ; ve got that job. Then I go to school, came to school and then advance. BRODY: So while you were still working you went back to school? TRAN: Yeah, I have to go full time, full-time school and full-time job. |00:21:10| BRODY: Where did you go to school? TRAN: First school is because I work on computer, that&#039 ; s what I told you, at the library. I went to the school by, at that time called the Texas Institute. They trained data processor, trained data processor. And I went--let me think--about a year and graduate, still couldn&#039 ; t find any job other than the same job. Then I went to El Centro Community College. I graduated in three semester. (laughs) BRODY: Wow, that&#039 ; s fast. You must&#039 ; ve been studying fast. TRAN: Yeah, three semester. I go for--remember, I work full time too. Then by that time, it improve. However, I continue to go the other school, really not intend to get degree, but intend to learn more stuff so I can improve my skill, not only in technology but also in social activity, things like that. So I went to, let&#039 ; s see, East Texas [Baptist University] and also go to Dallas University--no, no, it&#039 ; s at Dallas Baptist University. BRODY: Dallas Baptist? TRAN: Dallas Baptist University. That was very close to--I think it was Grand Prairie, somewhere in there. |00:22:36| BRODY: What did you study? TRAN: Oh, studied--let&#039 ; s see, I forgot what it is. It&#039 ; s a long time, don&#039 ; t remember, but the main thing is more or less just little social study. I remember, I took one course with the teacher, communication course, they called it Looking In and Looking Out, I could remember that. (laughs) But just the main thing, but I already have the associate degree from El Centro, so I think that all I need. BRODY: Right, right. But you wanted to learn more and to socialize more. Were your classmates--did you interact very much with your classmates, or were you-- TRAN: Oh yeah, same thing you and I here. Of course, I still have accent, but at least I communicated. BRODY: Yes, absolutely. So you had some friends that you knew there. TRAN: Yeah, uh-hm. Sure. BRODY: Are you still in touch with any of those friends? TRAN: Say again? BRODY: Are you still in touch with any of those friends from that time? TRAN: No. It&#039 ; s been a long time, you&#039 ; re talking. BRODY: It was a long time ago, yes. TRAN: About forty years now. |00:23:36| BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. So I wanted to go back. About the church, were you very involved with the Catholic Church when you were still in Vietnam, or was that something that developed once you got here? TRAN: No. I was a Catholic in Vietnam, but I didn&#039 ; t really involve to church activity until 1975 when I move here. BRODY: Right, when you got here. |00:24:01| TRAN: And not only that, I&#039 ; m the guy who bought the church for Vietnamese, now the Vietnamese--St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church. BRODY: Wait, so you built the church--you helped-- TRAN: No. We bought it from-- BRODY: You bought the church? TRAN: Yeah. We bought it from Reinhardt Bible Church, which [St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church] is located on Garland Road and Fuller [Drive]--Garland Road and, I think, Fuller? Oh, [North] Buckner [Boulevard]. Rather easier is, Buckner and Garland Road. And now they still have it. They still meet there in that church. BRODY: Yeah, it&#039 ; s still there. So the Vietnamese community at St. Pius X in the 1970s, it was growing. So you were the first families, but--first family, and then there came ten more--many more families? TRAN: And it grew quickly because like I said previously, ten families original. Then after that, just go up, and jump up, because I can sponsor somebody else, somebody else sponsor for somebody else, so it&#039 ; s changing and exponent. BRODY: Right, it grew fast. TRAN: And then we used St. Pius X four PM Sunday Mass. Only one mass. We also used the school for Sunday School in the afternoon. BRODY: In Vietnamese? TRAN: In Vietnamese, yes. And then, I think, in 1995, the community decided to buy their own church. And by that time, we turned from Washington, D.C. after we attend my grandson graduation, and the group of Vietnamese from the community come over to our home and said, &quot ; You need to be leader to look for church for us.&quot ; And I asked them, &quot ; How much money you guys have?&quot ; They said &quot ; Ninety thousand.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Ninety thousand, tell me buy a church?&quot ; (both laugh) But I think it over and said, &quot ; Okay, I&#039 ; ll buy it. I&#039 ; ll do it.&quot ; And we have--I form a sixteen-member committee to go out and look for church, fundraising, everything else. We bought the church in eighteen months. BRODY: Wow, that&#039 ; s amazing. So that community had a lot of cohesion and a desire to stick together, then, and to form their own church. Earlier, as that community was forming, what types of activities and--you know, you mentioned the Mass at four PM and the Sunday School--did you do any--do you remember any other types of traditions and things that happened within that community? TRAN: Well, you mean talking about St. Pius X, right? BRODY: Yes. TRAN: Yeah. The thing beside that, not that much except that maybe when we have the Vietnamese festival in mid-autumn or the Vietnamese new year, they use the facility for the celebrate. And also, I think in May, normally, it&#039 ; s the month of Mother Mary. So we have the procession, all kind of thing, you know. But when we move to the new church, which is located on Garland Road and near the Buckner, we can have more activity then. |00:27:29| BRODY: Yeah, tell me about those activities. What do you remember? TRAN: The--I stay a member of that church, but because I&#039 ; m living too far away, so I go to church here in Richardson. Once in a while I went out there. My name is still there. (laughs) Then when we moved to have a new church we have a new pastor, we have all kind of activity: teaching Sunday school, all the activity, a woman club, a man club, and Boy Scout and all kinds of stuff. It&#039 ; s a regular--same with American church. BRODY: Yes, but you replicated everything for the Vietnamese community. TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s right. Um-hm. BRODY: So, like the children that grew up in the Vietnamese Catholic church there, what are you impressions of them? Some people say when the second generation is being raised in another country that they may lose some of their culture. What are your observations about that? TRAN: Well, I agree with that, because seeing here, thing that I&#039 ; d like to mention to you that--when I buy that church for them, I think we probably used about max thirty years. So you have all the age, people phase out and kids kept growing up, they adapt to a new culture and they can blend into society complete, but it&#039 ; s really not that--that not true anymore. BRODY: That&#039 ; s not what happened? TRAN: No, it&#039 ; s not. Of course, it Americanized somewhat, but it still continue to work with the church, come to the church and enjoy all kind of activity, except it not a hundred percent. It phase out somewhat, but I see it still going. |00:29:18| BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. Are there new families coming in still? TRAN: Oh yeah, sure, yeah. They tend to go to the church every Sunday, and they also involve to other activity, but the Sundays are the main thing. Like you said, some Vietnamese kids don&#039 ; t even speak Vietnamese anymore. BRODY: That&#039 ; s true. So how do you feel-- TRAN: Because the problem with the parent, they don&#039 ; t speak Vietnamese at home. Some of them, they&#039 ; re afraid the kid don&#039 ; t speak English, so they try to work with the kid at home, and soon the kid forget the Vietnamese. My family, all my kids speak English and also Vietnamese. But they cannot write Vietnamese, they cannot read. But they speak very well. I speak Vietnamese at home with my wife, my mother, so they get along with it. But I don&#039 ; t know about next generation, about my grandkid. That&#039 ; s different story. |00:30:32| BRODY: Right, right. So what do you think are the challenges for the grandkids, for example, having grown, you know, been born here and raised in English? So in trying to preserve the culture and to think about the religion, culture, those types of things, what are the biggest challenges for people who come as refugees, who are immigrants, to try to find that balance? TRAN: Well, it really hard to balance, because the kid born and raised in here, they go to school here, they spend most of their daytime at the school, they&#039 ; re communicating with the local people here, American kids. So it&#039 ; s very hard to pull them back, you know? Just some, but basically to me, exception ; not normal, exception. All my grandkid, they speak very little Vietnamese. They just Americanized almost hundred percent. They eat American food, very few, sometimes they eat some Vietnamese food, but only certain items they eat, not like us, we eat everything. BRODY: Right. That&#039 ; s a common challenge for (both talking). TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s right. It&#039 ; s very hard to maintain that--that what we call the tapestry here. You know, people coming in, blending into society, and that&#039 ; s it. No exception. |00:31:52| BRODY: Right. So what to you are the--you know, even in the time that you initially first came, what were some of the key pieces of Vietnamese culture and lifestyle that you wanted to make sure that you carried on, even though you were in a new place? TRAN: Well, the thing is, the way the family of Vietnamese is, they try to have the hierarchy ; grandparent, parent, kid. But it not in here. We try to do that, but I doubt that we can maintain it long term. BRODY: Here in the United States? TRAN: Yes. BRODY: Why? TRAN: Well, because--(laughs) it&#039 ; s Americanized. They different story, different culture. And I can&#039 ; t say bad or good, but it&#039 ; s culture. We can&#039 ; t change the culture. BRODY: Right. You&#039 ; re in a new place and-- TRAN: Yeah. And back home, we have--the first person had to learn how to become good human being first, before technology, before everything, but first. The second in there is the train, your education and talent, it varies and so on, so on. The people lacking good character, it couldn&#039 ; t be good people. So that&#039 ; s the--it&#039 ; s different with Vietnamese, they main thing differently. I don&#039 ; t know good or bad, but that the way we go. BRODY: The different mindset, it sounds like, that you&#039 ; re saying. So as--go ahead, I&#039 ; m sorry. |00:33:28| TRAN: Yeah, let me say just one example. One of my last daughter get married last year. And she asked me for the list of the people she will invite. And I gave her the list, but I forgot one important thing: that I had to put my name on the outside label. So when she get pick up the list, guest list, and got the invitation, she put her and her husband address on the envelope and invitation inside. She mail out--and some people don&#039 ; t even know, recognize her. See what I&#039 ; m saying? BRODY: Right. TRAN: They don&#039 ; t do that in Vietnam. They don&#039 ; t do that, period. BRODY: From the father. TRAN: Because some of my relative, they even don&#039 ; t know her name, because she young. She is young. And I have to call every single one and apologize for her, I said I don&#039 ; t intend to do that, just forgive us for that. I call every one of them. BRODY: Yeah, you called every single one? TRAN: (laughs) Every single one. BRODY: Because it was a cultural misunderstanding? TRAN: Yeah. The younger one, no problem, with her brother and sister, cousin. Shouldn&#039 ; t been a problem, but the people who are, like, my age or above, I had to call. Some of them, they were open. They said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry about it.&quot ; But they do come. BRODY: But they came? That&#039 ; s good. TRAN: Yeah, they came. (laughs) BRODY: Yeah, once they understood, right? That&#039 ; s an interesting--an interesting story because your-- TRAN: Now, in our country they cannot do that, period. BRODY: Right. That would not happen, right? TRAN: It would not happen back home. |00:35:22| BRODY: That makes me think--this is not the same subject at all, but I wanted to ask you about your thoughts about social class. When you came here to the United States, we talked about how your job was quite different than what you had been doing in Vietnam, but did you have--do you remember anything about your observations about the differences in the United States regarding social class? TRAN: You mean the poor, rich, middle class, so on, so forth? BRODY: Yes. TRAN: Yeah. The United States, I want to say it&#039 ; s a--we don&#039 ; t see that that much here. You go outside on the street, you see people walking around, you don&#039 ; t know who rich or who not. They dress somewhat the same. They drive almost similar vehicle, you know? Even maybe older a few years, but not much different. Back home, social class is very clear. If you own a car, you&#039 ; re the top of the class. You walk, then you low class. (both laugh) BRODY: So it&#039 ; s very easy to tell, right? TRAN: And the way you dress, old clothes, new clothes, people ride bicycle compared to motorcycle, compared to vehicle, so-- BRODY: There&#039 ; s a hierarchy. TRAN: Yeah, hierarchy. And now we&#039 ; re here, and you can&#039 ; t tell that much. You have billion dollar, I don&#039 ; t have, but I think you and I is almost the same. Same level. |00:36:58| BRODY: Right. Why do you think that is? TRAN: It is the graded you here. They don&#039 ; t look at the people because they don&#039 ; t expect people be that person rich, or poor. BRODY: It&#039 ; s just based on the person. TRAN: Yeah. BRODY: So did you feel like in your getting to the United States, did you move from one social class to another? Or were you kind of the same? TRAN: It not only social class, but because I didn&#039 ; t move that much--except I do get some better position in later life but I don&#039 ; t think that a different social class. I make enough money to feed the family, brought the kid up and something like that. I&#039 ; m not rich because I&#039 ; m not--if you want to be rich in this society you have to do business, not to work for somebody, and get rich--it don&#039 ; t work that way. BRODY: Right. So that wasn&#039 ; t much of a factor in your thinking? TRAN: That&#039 ; s true, yeah. |00:37:54| BRODY: Yeah, or your experience. So you had four kids come with you from Vietnam, and then they were in school here. What are some of--you talked a little bit about some of the differences between the schools, you know, serving lunch here and things like that. How about the academics? What were your experiences with teachers and with your kids as they were going to school? TRAN: They different, too. Very, very different. On the same subject, after the four kid came here, we had two more coming here. BRODY: Oh, okay, two more that were born here? TRAN: Two daughters, yes. And the one who came in &#039 ; 75, we had second daughter in &#039 ; 76. Then ten year later we have another one girl--&#039 ; 86, so ten year apart. And all married and got out. BRODY: Oh, congratulations. (laughs) TRAN: The oldest one fifty, I think he fifty on January the ninth, a couple of more day. He&#039 ; s fifty. The youngest one, she thirty-three. Thirty-three in April. Tax day, she born on tax day. BRODY: On tax day. (laughs) TRAN: Right. She not here ; she&#039 ; s in Maryland. |00:39:04| BRODY: In Maryland, I see. So school-wise, were the--was the transition for your kids smooth into the school system? What were some challenges, if there were any? TRAN: You mean the-- BRODY: The kids in the school, or dealing with teachers or academics. TRAN: Oh, I think they got along very well. They had no problem whatsoever. Through interacting with all the American kid, no problem at all. Matter of fact, the first six month after my first son get in first grade, in a public school in east Dallas, the principal recognize him as a good citizen. So it&#039 ; s only six month. BRODY: Six months, he was a good citizen. TRAN: Very quickly, you know? BRODY: Yes, yes, that&#039 ; s great. TRAN: The teacher love him, he do so well in school even. And somehow, they pick up English very quickly. |00:40:07| BRODY: Yes, kids do, right? How about you? Speaking of language learning, you already were quite good at English but you, you know, had to transition into all the things that you had to do here. TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s right. BRODY: What were some of the ways that you tried to improve your English or work on that? TRAN: (laughs) Yeah, just read paper and watch television, you know. I probably went to school too. But it&#039 ; s hard. I mean, the thing of the culture, custom, those are hard to get used to-- BRODY: Even more than language? TRAN: --it take a long time. But other than that, I don&#039 ; t think English ever was a problem with. I mean-- |00:40:49| BRODY: What were some of the customs that were confusing to you? TRAN: (laughs) Oh, yeah. Let me see. The customs, you know, one of the only--the holiday, the Christmas Day? Yeah. We had to have a very good in the decoration and Christmas tree and gifts and parties, so on, so forth. We had very little back home. We had so much food here ; as a matter of fact, over-full. It&#039 ; s too much. BRODY: Right. Too much food? (laughs) TRAN: And we had little back home. (laughs) Over-gifts, you know? Some of my grandkid had, maybe, twenty gift. Back home? Zero. BRODY: Zero gifts. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) So the culture is different. But they--I mean, even they don&#039 ; t have anything, but they do behave themselves. |00:41:54| BRODY: That&#039 ; s interesting. So yeah, the holidays are different here. So did the Men&#039 ; s Club at St. Pius or your neighbors or people at work or school, is that the main way that you learned about American customs? TRAN: That&#039 ; s true, yeah. That&#039 ; s true. By interacting with people from church and other organization, at work. I think they do train. Workshop is the main thing, because you be in there eight-hour a day. But it didn&#039 ; t take that much long for me to learn to get around and accustomed to the custom, and so--and, you know, it&#039 ; s hard to start a new life with my age--at thirty-two, by that time--to start over. BRODY: Yeah. You really did. TRAN: It got difficult, very, very difficult, because I have a big family too. BRODY: Yep. A lot of responsibility and a lot to learn all at once. So your mother was here with you, you said, as well. Did she live in the same house? TRAN: She used to stay with us from &#039 ; 75 until, I think--I want to say until &#039 ; 88. Then she moved to stay with my sister. My sister, by that time, she married, she had a couple kid, so she bought a house and my mother move over there and we stay up here by ourselves, and the last kid, which is now thirty-two, thirty-three years old, we put in daycare. It was two years of age. At St. Pius X school, they have daycare. BRODY: They have daycare there. So you guys stayed in that community, you didn&#039 ; t move. TRAN: Right. We stayed in that community until--let&#039 ; s see, 1998. Then we moved out to Richardson twenty years ago. |00:44:11| BRODY: Okay. In that--the pastor at St. Pius X was Monsignor Weinzapfel, is that right? TRAN: Yes. BRODY: Tell me about your memories of him. I&#039 ; ve heard he was very involved with the Vietnamese community. TRAN: Oh yeah, he&#039 ; s a (laughs) very good person. He very active with the helping Vietnamese to settle. He let us use a lot of facility that we need for our activity, including the church, and didn&#039 ; t charge us that much, you know. It was a collection during Mass and give some back to him. He always helped the Vietnamese in way that&#039 ; s try to settle down in this area, and I really was good friends with him. BRODY: You were good friends with him? TRAN: Yeah. Anything he need for Vietnamese, he call me. He said--anybody confusing, he said, &quot ; Call Sao.&quot ; (??), but sometime later, when we moved to Richardson, we did invite him to come over to have supper with us and things like that. |00:45:19| BRODY: Oh, that&#039 ; s nice. Why was he so interested, do you think, in helping the Vietnamese community settle down here? TRAN: Well, I think that one thing that normally the Catholics try to do that, work with refugees, but I think the group of Vietnamese were the first group he deal with. By that time, he about midfifties, still fairly young. So sometimes he rode a bicycle from church to our home and I was at work and my wife, my mother, and the kid at home, except the one in school. He just speak English and none of my [family] member speak English. So he call over, said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s say a prayer.&quot ; So my people say in Vietnamese, he say in English. (laughs) Then he bless and ride bicycle, go home. (Brody laughs) He&#039 ; s a funny guy. |00:46:18| BRODY: (laughs) So he was a flexible guy as far as prayers go and language, too. That&#039 ; s a great story. So I wanted to ask you, on a different note, did your family or you, do you remember any experiences of discrimination or racism as you were trying to settle here? TRAN: I don&#039 ; t think so, no. BRODY: Not at all? That&#039 ; s good. Why do you think that it went so smoothly, in that regard, for your family? TRAN: Well, I probably--basically, the reason we didn&#039 ; t run into the discrimination problem, like you&#039 ; re just saying, basically, is just lucky, you know? BRODY: Hm, yeah, lucky. TRAN: Just lucky, you get lucky. They could deal with a group, don&#039 ; t have this kind of problem. That&#039 ; s the only thing I can say, because we have--I see people dealing with that, but we&#039 ; re not in that. So very hard to recognize discrimination. |00:47:22| BRODY: Well, that&#039 ; s fortunate that you did not experience it ; that&#039 ; s good. Do you have much interaction, back then, with other groups that are discriminated against in the community? African Americans or-- TRAN: No, I don&#039 ; t have that opportunity. I even involved to a lot of activities that help the Vietnamese in the area. I also join the--what they call--Rotary Club. I was vice president, White Rock Rotary Club. BRODY: Oh, good. What kind of activities did the White Rock Rotary Club do? TRAN: You mean the-- BRODY: What did you do with them? What was your-- TRAN: Oh, we have other activity. We go out, help people, and thing like that, basically. The Rotary Club ; I think you know that club, right? |00:48:22| BRODY: Yes, I know the Rotary Club, yes. So going back to the--you were such a leader in the St. Pius community and the Vietnamese community, and people came to you with questions and the church came to you with questions if there were things that people were going through. What were some of the sorts of problems that you were faced with sometimes when they asked you for your help? TRAN: Well, the thing is sometimes they--you mean dealing with my people who had some problem? Well, the thing is, sometimes they, sadly, would more expectation than it should be, and they should know my capacity is limit, you know. So sometimes they asked a little bit more than I can do. BRODY: What were the kind of things that they were asking for help with? TRAN: Well, the thing sometimes they&#039 ; d get me to bring kid to the hospital, but I got busy with other stuff, you know? And I can understand. I mean, most people didn&#039 ; t speak English by that time. But I couldn&#039 ; t cover everything. I do help that a lot, but only so much I can do. BRODY: Yeah. So sometimes you were asked to do a lot of things-- TRAN: Yeah, family have work, so on and so forth. (laughs) BRODY: School, right. So your capacity was limited. TRAN: Yeah, was limit. I wanted to do more, but it&#039 ; s hard. So I think one family that, he came here with his wife and no kids, left all the kid behind, and he speak no English whatsoever. And so I think by the time he work for Bishop Lynch High School-- Catholic high school, down further to the road. I&#039 ; m not sure you know that high school or not. Bishop Lynch. BRODY: Bishop Lynch High School? TRAN: Yeah, high school. And work there at as a janitor. You know, the (??) And every time they had a problem they call me. The sister who in charge that school call me too, so they&#039 ; re trying to phase out the problem, you know? |00:50:25| BRODY: Yeah, so you&#039 ; re trying to do your job, to take care of your family and still help. TRAN: But I do help a lot of people, except that only so much I can do. BRODY: Absolutely. Well, the community grew so much, also. I would imagine that there were so--over time, more and more people who had things that they needed help with. (laughs) TRAN: Oh yeah, that&#039 ; s right, yeah. What I&#039 ; m saying is only the beginning of that first-- maybe first two year or so. After that, you know, they got a lot of young kid who speak English and learn more English, they get used to the life in United States, so they don&#039 ; t ask for help that much anymore. BRODY: Right, right, because they have other people to turn to as well. So you had your hands full at the beginning, right? (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. It phased out in about a couple of year. I had to raise my family and put kid in school. (laughs) |00:51:21| BRODY: So, your kids--when--this is a question that we&#039 ; ve kind of talked about a little bit already, but when you think about yourself and your--did you become an American citizen eventually? TRAN: Yes. In order to become American citizen we have to stay in the United States five years. And then you got the--I think, got green card, and then take another five year to apply for citizenship. So we all become citizenship in, I want to say, probably 1986. And only me, my wife, and the rest of the kids, they automatically come in, become citizens. |00:52:19| BRODY: The kids, right? So when you think of yourself now after you&#039 ; ve gotten the American citizenship, what does it mean to you to be American? Or do you think of yourself as American? Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese, Vietnamese American? TRAN: Oh, it&#039 ; s mixed. It&#039 ; s mixed feelings. BRODY: Yeah? Tell me about your feelings about that? TRAN: Well, I&#039 ; m very happy to become American citizenship, because that&#039 ; s the goal, to stay here permanently. And if I can stay here without citizenship, you cannot quite well. So I&#039 ; m very happy with it, and I&#039 ; d like to tell you another story, becoming citizenship. When I grant first citizenship, my company throw a party. I think about sixty people come over and enjoy it--a reception, rather. And we all--they all happy. But they ask me to make a speech, and I didn&#039 ; t prepare for it. And I tell people, &quot ; Lady and gentlemen, I&#039 ; m very happy to become American citizenship. But when I first come here, I don&#039 ; t have nothing. But you took me in, give me your country, give me the church to practice, give me job, and give me friendship.&quot ; Some of the women cried. (laughs) |00:53:51| BRODY: That sounds beautiful. That&#039 ; s beautiful, and you didn&#039 ; t prepare. (laughs) TRAN: Not even at all. BRODY: That was from the heart. Right. So your mixed feelings about both of those things. TRAN: Yeah, mixed feelings. I still bleed all(??) Vietnamese, but I still like to become American citizenship. BRODY: Yeah, and this is--your life has been here at this point, so--and your family. |00:54:13| TRAN: I haven&#039 ; t been back home yet. BRODY: Really? You haven&#039 ; t been back? TRAN: Yeah, the thing is--the thing I--all my brother, sister, my mother here, my wife here, my kids here. My wife only have one brother here. The rest of her brother, they&#039 ; re back home. We do communicate once in a while, we would call them, talk with them and thing like that. But that&#039 ; s--I think she have one, two, three, she have four brother-- BRODY: Back there? TRAN: Yeah. She&#039 ; s only girl in the family. BRODY: And she&#039 ; s the only one who came here too. Did she work after she came here? TRAN: Oh she work at--let&#039 ; s see. When she give the first daughter here, 1976, she worked--at &#039 ; 78, she started work. Because I myself, I am unable to cover everything, because my salary is still very low by that. And she go work for some company doing some electronic work, like assembly, put things together. She work until the year 2000, she left the workforce. BRODY: Wow. So she had her own-- TRAN: Yeah. She&#039 ; d stay home, take care of the kids and so on, so forth. BRODY: Yes, that&#039 ; s interesting. TRAN: Take care of the kids, and take care grandkid. |00:56:02| BRODY: And grandkids again. (laughs) A mom&#039 ; s work is never done. So with--in terms of politics, have you been involved in politics here in the United States? TRAN: No. All we do is go voting, that&#039 ; s about it. BRODY: Just vote. Well, that&#039 ; s an involvement-- TRAN: No activity. BRODY: Are there differences that you&#039 ; ve observed or were you particularly involved in Vietnam with politics? TRAN: No, in Vietnam I don&#039 ; t involve in politic at all, but over here I do vote. That&#039 ; s all. |00:56:28| BRODY: Yeah. So when you think about yourself and your identity and all of the experiences that you&#039 ; ve had in your life, what are some of the thoughts that you reflect on about, you know, as you look back on your life? TRAN: Well, I look at my life. I have these friend that say that I really accomplished that much. It happens a lot, because you change from life of Vietnam to United States and get used to here, and set up the family and raise them in a well-mannered--all of my kid went to school and a lot of them graduate school. I think only one didn&#039 ; t have a graduate degree. Five of them-- BRODY: That&#039 ; s pretty impressive, yeah. Did you tell them that was an expectation? TRAN: No, they go to school and just encourage them, but I never tell them, &quot ; You have to do this,&quot ; no. Matter of fact, I have two medical doctors, two lawyer, and one teacher, and one business. BRODY: Wow. That&#039 ; s an impressive family. TRAN: Yeah. And they all kids, they marry to five doctors. So end up five doctor in my family. No, marry three doctor, then that&#039 ; s two and three together, make five doctor, and two lawyer. BRODY: Wow. You&#039 ; ve got it covered. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) |00:57:59| BRODY: So you never told them, &quot ; I expect--&quot ; TRAN: No. I don&#039 ; t want to change them. &quot ; You have to become this.&quot ; Sometimes I try to talk them, encourage them, but I don&#039 ; t force them. I don&#039 ; t force them to--certain people forcing kid learn certain subject, but I don&#039 ; t do that as a trait(??). The same thing with when they get married. Of course, I like the person for those who marry, but I cannot tell them, &quot ; You have to marry this.&quot ; That&#039 ; s the line. They make mistake, they learn from. But can you imagine if you tell the kid, &quot ; You&#039 ; ve got to marry this poor girl or this boy,&quot ; and five year later they don&#039 ; t work out very well, who really carry the responsibility? So I don&#039 ; t want to do that. They&#039 ; re on their own. Not only that, when they marry, they on their own. I don&#039 ; t stick my nose in their family. That is the way it should be. They make mistake, they pay for it. I keep telling kid today, tomorrow you decide to go buy helicopter, go buy it if you can pay for it. But I won&#039 ; t stop you. (laughs) BRODY: Right. So a wise father. (laughs) TRAN: Yeah. (laughs) It&#039 ; s true. I would never call and said, &quot ; What are you doing?&quot ; No. I call and say hello and things like that. Otherwise, I can&#039 ; t survive with that many kids. |00:59:40| BRODY: (laughs) That&#039 ; s funny. So I want to go back just briefly to talk about the Vietnamese community in Dallas. In terms of your own perceptions, the community as it&#039 ; s changed from the 1970s to today, what is the--what are some of the characteristics of the Vietnamese community in Dallas? TRAN: Well, it&#039 ; s very hard to say, but I mean it&#039 ; s kind of mixed bag, you know, a lot of people. It truly good, move to forward, but some people left behind. So you can tie those together, and to me, if people move forward they seem very good, you know? They seem very good, they seem get along well, they do act as good people, American people as well. But some people left behind because they don&#039 ; t have enough education to adapt, adapt the new culture. So they&#039 ; re left behind, they leave the for not bring a light(??). BRODY: So there&#039 ; s a difference even within-- TRAN: But not that many, okay? Them different. |01:01:02| BRODY: Do you feel like the community is unified in terms of how they interact with the larger society? TRAN: They do, but not hundred percent, you know? It&#039 ; s always a crack here and there. BRODY: Yeah. Are there differences in terms of people belonging to different religions-- TRAN: Different religion, different education level, different knowledge, it is complete different. BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s interesting, especially because the larger community in this area has gotten very diverse and a lot of different groups not-- TRAN: Oh yeah. BRODY: I think in 1975 it wasn&#039 ; t as diverse, so the Vietnamese were the first. TRAN: That&#039 ; s true, because it&#039 ; s so many ethnic group come in after &#039 ; 75 besides Vietnamese, you know? Middle East and Chinese and Indian and Australia, all kind. It once can be Europe, whatever. It&#039 ; s a big culture. BRODY: Yeah. It&#039 ; s very different now than it was when you first arrived. |01:02:14| TRAN: Oh, yes. It is difficult, but it&#039 ; s good for United States. That&#039 ; s the way United States should be. That&#039 ; s the way--it produce a lot good people, because they mix blood, mix culture. You look at people in Europe, they so pure. So therefore, it&#039 ; s tougher for them to deal with. Over here it mix. They bring all kind of culture in, bring all kind of language in. I don&#039 ; t know how many languages the people in the United States they speak. BRODY: Right. Many many. TRAN: It&#039 ; s over the hundreds. BRODY: Yeah. So immigration is a key part of-- TRAN: Oh yeah, there&#039 ; s no doubt about that. The reason make United States strong is because the mixed culture. If you look at the--if you look more, lean toward the interior you see all the, like, chicken. When they mix blood, chicken strong and big. But they pure blood, it&#039 ; s skinny. (both laugh) That&#039 ; s one way to explore the thinking, you know? BRODY: So some diversity, right? TRAN: Yeah. You need that. |01:03:31| BRODY: I guess I&#039 ; ve kind of asked you all the questions I was going to, but I wonder if there&#039 ; s anything that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you&#039 ; d like to share ; a story or your thoughts about-- TRAN: I think you asked--I&#039 ; m okay with almost everything. If later on you need, just call me. BRODY: Okay, I will. Well, I really appreciate your time and enjoyed hearing your stories. And I think it&#039 ; s an important story and I&#039 ; m glad to help you tell it. TRAN: I don&#039 ; t know how much I help you but I do it my best, you know. BRODY: It was wonderful, thank you very much. TRAN: Thank you. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh007_btba_006.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sao Tran Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh007_btba_006 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-01-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/ea0c088b20a7db6289dd5dc161bd1b9b.jpg 7c8578a509709da63be1ee2f5b483bbd Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bang Dang OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Bang Dang, January 8, 2019 2019oh001_btba_007 00:58:50 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Bang Dang Betsy Brody mp3 oh-audio-dig-dang_b_20190108(1).mp3 1:|22(14)|51(8)|87(8)|134(7)|170(4)|195(13)|236(14)|270(11)|317(11)|350(2)|390(2)|440(7)|474(11)|514(1)|556(2)|576(3)|617(3)|656(10)|685(3)|731(2)|780(2)|813(9)|849(10)|884(8)|913(9)|978(10)|1008(1)|1036(2)|1074(16)|1104(17)|1139(10)|1161(6)|1192(10)|1218(13)|1260(1)|1298(4)|1321(9)|1348(11)|1385(5)|1412(2)|1455(8)|1491(7)|1518(1)|1539(16)|1568(5)|1604(5)|1635(8)|1664(13)|1699(10)|1735(9)|1772(8)|1798(9)|1833(5)|1854(13)|1881(11)|1903(7)|1933(11) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/114000 Aviary audio 1 Interview Introduction &quot ; Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans&quot ; 21 Early childhood in Saigon Let’s—to start out, just tell me a little bit about your background and about yourself and what you remember of your life in Vietnam. Mr. Dang describes his family's Chinese-Vietnamese heritage and how his parents met at a Catholic school in Saigon. Atheism ; Buddhism ; Catholic school ; Religion ; Vietnamese countryside ; Vietnamese-Chinese Sai Gon (Vietnam)--History. 10.8231, 106.6297 17 Saigon, Vietnam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh_City Wikipedia entry for Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) 167 Leaving Vietnam by boat So, during—do you remember much of what was going on in your family during the war? boat ; escape ; famiy ; Hong Kong ; money ; refugees ; United States ; Vietnam War 306 Boat crashes on Hainan Island A side note is we—our boat crashed and landed near a little island in China called Hainan, and that was—so our boat was—you know, water was coming into the boat, and at night the tides rise. A lot of the people didn’t know how to swim, so we didn’t know what to do. I remember these two soldiers at the time came to the boat, and they said, you know, we couldn’t get on land. They would have to send the message to their supervisors, which would take days, right, at the time. But luckily my dad, being Chinese, he was from that province. Boats ; China ; Chinese language ; crash ; gold ; Hainan Island Boat people ; Refugees--Vietnam 18.7594480, 109.46530220 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan Wikipedia entry for Hainan Island 492 Leaving Hainan Island and traveling to Hong Kong DANG: Yeah. So in Hong Kong, I believe—I’m trying to remember chronologically— then we were put in these refugee camps at first. So if you have family, then they do the paperwork, and then they come—they can take you out of the camps and you go live with them. So, of course, my uncle came. And then I believe my aunts and uncles on a separate boat—so my grandmom had two boats. It was, you know, my immediate family with my two uncles from my mom’s— BRODY: On your mom’s side. DANG: And then the other boat was, you know, all my other uncles and aunts and my grandparents. And I believe somehow we got separated, of course, and I believe that my grandmom and grandad and my aunts and uncles came later. Hong Kong ; refugee camps Refugees--Vietnam 114.109497, 22.396428 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong Wikipedia page for Hong Kong 651 Temporary stay in Hong Kong, sponsorship and arrival in Texas DANG: Well, it’s funny because starting kindergarten wasn’t a problem, because, you know, we were pretty well-off when we were in Saigon, so I went to a preschool there that taught English. So I could read, like, Dr. Seuss stuff by the time— Dallas ; English ; English language ; housing ; kindergarten ; preschool ; refugee camps ; sponsors ; sponsorship Refugees--Vietnam 32.7767, 96.7970 17 764 Early years in Dallas, adults' employment, and language challenges DANG: So, I think a lot of my aunts worked at this place called Handbag, and—I mean, that was literally the name, and it was off of—as I remember, it stuck around for a long time—it was off of basically [US Highway] 75 and Forest [Lane], right before you turn—right before you can exit in the [Interstate] 635. So where all the medical buildings are right now? There was a place called Handbag. BRODY: Handbag. And what did they do? DANG: So they— BRODY: They were sewing. DANG: You know, sewing, and it was like an assembly line, making handbags. And then my uncles, they worked at, like, 7-Eleven. You know, convenience stores. So my dad did that. BRODY: Was everyone as good at English as you were? DANG: No. No, I think my parents were probably—my dad especially was probably the best at it, but even he was—you know, it was pretty rough English, you know? And then my—at the time my grandparents were still relatively young. They worked at Presby [Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital Dallas??], you know, like, doing laundry or pushing cart, you know, the stretchers and stuff. Yeah, that was about it. I think it was convenience stores, Handbag, and Presby. And then, of course, by the time you get—you know, you meet whatever other Chinese or Vietnamese really quickly because there weren’t many at the time, and then wherever they worked, right, that’s where you’re going to work. assembly lines ; convenience stores ; Dallas ; employment ; English ; Handbag ; hospitals ; jobs ; language learning ; seamstresses 862 Residential patterns and formation of of Vietnamese community in Dallas in the 1980s At the very beginning we all—everyone just lived separately. It was odd. Like, I don’t know how that happened, like, if they placed people. And obviously, they were usually the lower-income housing. But then as people started working—you know, for instance, my parents had me, and then I have another aunt who had a husband and two children at the time—they had to move out, right, at some point so that they get more space. And then that’s the same thing because it’s such a small community, whoever moved found the place, like an apartment complex that was, you know, affordable, and that’s who—you know, that’s where you would move, so pretty soon— BRODY: (speaking at same time) Right, the next move. DANG: Yeah. And then pretty soon everyone’s—it’s kind of a herd mentality, you know? So then everyone moved. And then those communities really started to form. housing ; Vietnamese community -96.6388833, 32.912624 17 1035 American customs And so she met some Americans that lived here all their—Texans who lived here all their lives, so sometimes we would hang out with them. And I just would remember that—you know, my parents mentioning certain things. Like, for instance, they said that, like, Americans seem to have this ability to really relax and let loose and have fun, you know? BRODY: And that felt different to them? DANG: You know, like they have a good laugh, and they have a good smile. Like, they seem to really enjoy life, you know? They’re not always serious all the time. I think that’s changed since then. American customs ; culture shock ; shoes Immigrants--Cultural assimilation 1191 Attending elementary at L.L.Hotchkiss Elementary School in Dallas I don’t ever—you know, I mean, to be completely honest, I mean, I had never met an African American person till I came here, but it didn’t shock me or anything, you know? Like, I wasn’t—you know, it wasn’t weird, I just hung out with whoever. You know, like, I remember my birthday parties. We had little birthday—we would get a little cake and I was allowed to invite eight people, and I would mostly invite kids from my apartment. It was mostly Hispanic children and African American children, and that was about it, you know? birthday parties ; L.L. Hotchkiss Elementary ; school ; teasing 1407 Home ownership and the American Dream DANG: In Richardson. And then from there, we were still in the apartments that fed into Liberty [Junior High School], and then that’s when my parents saved up enough money and they bought a house in Garland. And so I finished eighth grade at Liberty and then started high school, which was ninth through twelfth at North Garland [High School]. BRODY: Got it. So that was a big accomplishment for your parents— DANG: Yeah, huge accomplishment. BRODY: —to accomplish that goal of owning a house. DANG: Yeah. It was truly for them, I mean, literally the American dream. That’s for them, to own a house. BRODY: Do they ever talk about that moment, that feeling? DANG: I’m sure they were very proud, and I think my mom just wanted a house, you know, that they owned, and it was bigger and you didn’t share walls with—you know, that kind of stuff. But I think, you know, that generation, for me, they were never—it was never outwardly celebratory, you know? It was always kept inside. BRODY: Quiet accomplishment, I guess. DANG: Yeah, that kind of stuff. So you didn’t notice it. Like, there wasn’t a party or anything, but yeah, I’m sure they were happy. BRODY: Absolutely. Well, just looking at it from the outside, having come as a refugee, you know— DANG: Absolutely. And it was such a big purchase—right?—for them. You know, for anyone, but for them especially at the time. So it was—you know, it was exciting, stressful, that kind of stuff. apartments ; busing ; Garland ; home ownership ; middle school ; Richardson American Dream ; Home ownership 1558 Growing up in Dallas and forming childhood friendships I think one reason I acclimated really well was because, you know, one, I was an only child growing up, and my mom kept me pretty secluded because, you know, she was one of those that worried a lot. I had friends when I was in Saigon but very limited, you know. They would have to come over and I wasn’t allowed to go out on my own. Obviously I was young. But also because I came so young. You know, like, I know friends who came when they were in junior high or even high school, and I think they had a harder time adjusting because, you know, by then you’ve left some good friends, you don’t speak the language as well, you’re having—you’re probably too busy trying to catch up in school and, you know—and then, you know, as you get older there’s more of the cliques and all that kind of—so I didn’t have to deal with that. I was in kindergarten, you know? Kids just—I don’t even know how kids get along. You know, how they decide who to play with or who not to. They just played with everyone. So I was lucky in that sense. But by the time—you know, I made friends pretty easily. acclimation ; friendships ; Garland 1687 Reflections on discrimination, racism, diversity, and social class DANG: I just think I understand people better. I really do, and it’s a great—it really was—it’s a huge advantage because, you know, I can talk to anybody, and I just—I just, within five minutes, I kind of understand where people are coming from a little better, you know? Like if I was to use the extreme, what if I went to this very exclusive private school, say, right, and I never worked, and I went to a private college and then I just went straight to finance or something, you know, where it’s just—you know, you don’t see—but I got the total opposite. You know, like when I went to UT [University of Texas] architecture school, it was tiny, but it also had the highest SAT average in all of— at the time, in ’93. And it seemed like when I went there—because North Garland wasn’t that great of a school. I would’ve preferred to go to Berkner [High School], but you know—you probably know, you go to Richardson, you get the same house and it’s like $10,000 more, you know, because of the schools. And so when I got to UT, for instance, in the architecture program, it was mostly Caucasian, a lot of them were from Houston and really good private schools, and I remember they had all been to Europe. You know what I mean? And then like, a couple of friends, their parents were in the oil business, but they had a house in Malaysia, they had a house—and so they had been everywhere. And when they talked about current events, like, their high school, they were writing about very serious current events, and my high school we were just—you know, we were doing the—you know, like reading To Kill A Mockingbird, that kind of stuff, just normal. But BRODY: A different level. DANG: —way ahead, yeah. But I still—I adapted well, so I was all over the place. Like, I remember my first-grade teacher, she saw how well I drew and colored. So she collected it all, and then she sent it off to this program—and I think it still exists—called the Young Artists Program. It was a private art school that you went to after school on weekends or in the summer, but it was in the YMCA at Highland Park and you had to pay a lot of money. But she talked the director there into letting me go free. So when I went there I met—I remember going to arts class and there was a kid named Jed. And I went there all the way up to junior high. BRODY: Oh, really? DANG: Yeah. So my dad and my mom would take me there after school or on the weekend, their summer camp. And he would always have, like, a limo driver drop him off. So I went from—and we were still—you know, I started in first grade. So I was still living in the apartments that have been torn down, you know? So I was hanging out with, you know, just kids. BRODY: The kids, yeah. DANG: Yeah, kids that lived in apartments and low-income apartments, and then here I am in Highland Park taking art class with—you know, I just remember the things they talked about, you know? Like, we went to a movie like, two times a year, and that was a huge deal. And I remember this kid saying, “Well, my mom’s off to Europe for two weeks with her friends, so my dad said that every night he’s going to take me to a different movie.” And then he would come in and tell us about all the movies that he saw, you know? BRODY: Wow. DANG: Yeah, and then like one kid went to Disney[land] and somehow his parents hooked it up where he got to meet Michael Jackson. Like, it was just ridiculous, right? art ; discrimination ; racism ; social class ; stereotypes ; teasing ; YMCA ; Young Artists Program 2141 Impact of refugee experience on worldview and career as an architect You know, I think that—I think depending on what you want to focus on, I think a lot of refugees, you know, they risk their lives to come here. And they come here because they usually want—usually, the primary reason is always a better life for their kids. That’s always their main goal, and I think that—and I think—so my mom has fourteen brothers and sisters, and my dad has three brothers and three sisters. So I have a lot of cousins. And I was the first to go to college, because I was the oldest. But it’s kind of funny if you compare the—if you purely look at—and it’s a bad way to look at it, but for the sake of discussion—if you look at purely academics, what type of degrees you have and where you went to school and how you’re doing in your career, it’s me and the older cousins that have done the best, especially the ones that came over that were not born here. So it can’t be an accident, I think. I think it’s because—you know, I think when you’re a refugee, you understand how hard it is to even get here, you know? BRODY: And you’ve lived it. DANG: Yeah, and you’ve lived it. So sometimes, as hard as, like, running a business is, the stress and liability and all that, I mean it doesn’t compare to getting on a little boat. BRODY: And knowing that you already did that and survived. DANG: Yeah, and trying to survive that and having your boat crash. You know what I mean? So I just think that it’s a shame that maybe people don’t look at that side of it, right? architecture ; flexibility ; worldview 2334 Impressions of the Vietnamese community in North Texas DANG: It’s a really tight community. It’s still the same kind of herd mentality. Like, you’ll see—you know, like people joke about Koreans having donut shops or dry cleaners, Vietnamese doing nails. It’s just because they trust that the success of their own people in a certain field will mean success for them, you know? So that’s why they do that. It’s very tight-knit, everyone knows everybody. I think they’re really good entrepreneurs. You know, like if you think about the Korean community, for instance, it’s rare to see—you know, in my parents’ type of work, which is non-white collar, it’s rare to see a Korean person, because they either do white-collar work or they open their own shop, whatever it happens to be. You rarely see them at Handbag or—you know. entrepreneurs ; generational differences ; herd mentality ; Koreans ; Vietnamese ; Vietnamese community 2527 What it means to be American and what it means to be Vietnamese DANG: I think, you know, the house was a symbol, right? But I think it’s a symbol for, “Hey, look, I can do whatever I want in my backyard now,” you know? And the apartments you don’t really have a yard or you can’t just put whatever you want, you know? So I think it’s the freedom to choose things and to do what you want, and I think that’s ultimately for me, it’s the same, you know? To be able to open my own business. American Dream ; assimlation ; freedom ; home ownership 3016 Differences in family attitudes toward visiting Vietnam BRODY: Have you been back to Vietnam? DANG: No, I haven’t ; nor China. I’d love to go to both and see. I’d love to. Yeah, everyone who’s been back tell[s] me it’s great. I think a lot of people I know that have been back, though, didn’t come on a boat, so it’s a little traumatic. Like, my mom won’t ever go back because it just reminds her of—you know, and then there were things where, you know, when we left and when my grandparents left they just confiscated their houses and just—you know what I mean? Like it’s hard for them to go see that. So I think they don’t have as much interest. But then my aunts—my mom, you know, who had a big family, her siblings that were younger that her didn’t come until, gosh, what year? I was in junior high, so maybe mideighties or something? So they came on a plane. China ; loss of property ; return to Vietnam ; trauma 3179 Thoughts about identity and immigrant acclimation DANG: I think I’m Vietnamese Chinese American. Yeah. I think as I get older I see a lot of things I do that’s very similar to how my parents did it, and then I see some thing[s], those are very opposite, you know? BRODY: Right, right. I mean, the question of identity is really what—you know, what we’re trying to get at. DANG: Okay. BRODY: There was thinking about—you know, just in our conversation we’ve kind of learned a lot about the things that were important to you that kind of shaped your worldview, so, again, I was curious of how you thought of yourself. DANG: Yeah, and I think—you know, in the American sense I really believe in individuals. Like I just think—you know, with this country, and I know there’s people behind the scenes that we don’t give credit to, but for the most part when times are tough or even when they’re not, there’s always individuals that make huge, huge impacts. But when it comes to friends and family and people at my office, there’s this—I always think of this sort of group dynamic, you know? I never forget that I’m just a tiny little speck in the universe, you know? But then when you think about in specifically your career and what you want to do, I do believe that individuals can do immense things. identity ; individualism ; worldview Asian Americans--Ethnic identity ; Individualism 3307 Differences between Asian Americans and Asians DANG: I think the interesting for me now is looking back. Like I feel like, you know, like lately, especially in an academic setting, there’s a lot of students, exchange students, from mainland China, which, you know, my parents always raised us really as Chinese. So a lot of things people find difficult is they always think—see, with the Asians, if you’re Korean, it doesn’t matter if you’re born in Paris, you still call yourself Korean. BRODY: You’re Korean, yes. DANG: Same with the Chinese, same with the Vietnamese, you know? So they raised us as Chinese, but when I see now actual, you know, Chinese people born in mainland here, it’s really odd. Like, they seem really foreign to me because I have nothing in common with them. They have certain things that are really odd to me, you know? And my parents have visited China a few times and my dad’s very proud, and even he had a hard time. Like, for instance, at the subways, there’s no line ever, or anywhere. There’s no line. You just go. So he found that very rude, you know? Because he’s so used to having an orderly line and who’s in front of you goes first. So I find the same thing. Like, I’ve had students who were from mainland, and when I went to UT there were a couple of—and it was really difficult to interact with them sometimes because their culture is so different. BRODY: Even though you personally identify—right. (laughs) DANG: Was raised somewhat Chinese, right? Yeah, it’s just really weird, you know? BRODY: I understand that. (laughs) DANG: Yeah, so I think that’s interesting. But it’s fun to look at it that way now because I’m trying to process it and, you know, think how was I when I got here? How different did I appear to other people in my actions and all that? But it’s interesting. It’s fun to see it that way because I feel like—seeing them makes me feel more American even, you know? Because, like, I wouldn’t do that that way, you know? BRODY: Right. That’s—it really brings to light some of the differences between culture and values and norms that you’ve grown accustomed to that aren’t necessarily cultural. DANG: Right. BRODY: That’s another interesting point that you’ve raised there. DANG: And then sometimes they come here and it’s only temporary. They know that in their head, so maybe they don’t acclimate as well? BRODY: Yeah, that’s a good point too. DANG: We came here ; this is our home. Period. We’re not moving again. But they’re coming here just for college or for business a few years and then they go home, you know? They just want a degree from here or they want to say, “I worked on Wall Street for five years,” you know? So maybe they’re not as interested in acclimating, you know? BRODY: Right, the mindset. DANG: Right. So it’s totally—it’s very interesting to watch. BRODY: Do you have children? DANG: No. BRODY: No. So, sort of, that’s the next stuff, right? Thinking about what values are the values that are the ones you would want to transmit from your own parents to your children. American identity ; Asian Americans ; Asians Asian Americans--Ethnic identity BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 8, 2019. I&#039 ; m interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Bang Dang. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History, and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. All right, thank you so much for joining me. DANG: You&#039 ; re welcome. Thanks for having me. BRODY: Let&#039 ; s--to start out, just tell me a little bit about your background and about yourself and what you remember of your life in Vietnam. |00:00:35| DANG: Okay. If I tell you too much, just let me know if you already know, (both laugh) but I was born in Saigon in 1974. My family is actually Chinese. A lot of people don&#039 ; t know that back in the seventies, Saigon was mostly Cantonese speaking, and mostly ©Baylor University 2 Chinese folks had immigrated there. So I grew up learning Cantonese and a little bit of Vietnamese because my dad&#039 ; s side of the family lived in the countryside, which is-- BRODY: In Vietnam still. DANG: --in Vietnam. Well, they&#039 ; re here now, but at the time. So they spoke mostly Vietnamese because the countryside was mostly Vietnamese and Vietnamese-speaking people. And then my mom&#039 ; s side of the family, a huge family, was always in Saigon. And my mom was actually raised by nuns in a sort of missionary Catholic school. |00:01:34| BRODY: Okay. Did you grow up Catholic, then? DANG: No, because my dad wasn&#039 ; t--my dad was basically atheist, you know? Closest thing would be Buddhist, but really atheist. And so that&#039 ; s how my parents met, because my dad lived in the country, but for better secondary school experience my grandmother sent him to Saigon to go to the same Catholic school that my mom had grown up in. That&#039 ; s how they met. And so that&#039 ; s where I was born. BRODY: Okay, great. And then you lived in the city. DANG: Yeah, lived in the city. We lived in a little high-rise condo, you know, tiny little thing, and it was mostly just my parents and me at the time because all the family lived separately. But we would visit my mom&#039 ; s side of the family quite a bit because they were in Saigon. And if I remember correctly, I think my mom&#039 ; s side of the family ran a sort of ©Baylor University 3 plumbing business, you know, with pipes and--plumbing parts business, and so yeah, that&#039 ; s how I grew up. BRODY: And did you go to the countryside very much? DANG: Yeah. I would go, if I remember, I&#039 ; d say at least five, six times a year. BRODY: Wow. DANG: And then that was always fun. We&#039 ; d stay, you know, a couple of weeks. |00:02:48| BRODY: So, during--do you remember much of what was going on in your family during the war? DANG: No. I believe by the time I was born that was pretty much over. BRODY: It was over, okay. DANG: Yeah, that was over, so I didn&#039 ; t have to deal much with that. |00:03:01| BRODY: So when you came to the United States, what were the circumstances of your migration here? DANG: So we came on a boat ; we were refugees. We actually landed in Hong Kong when I was about four, and my grandmom on my dad&#039 ; s side had planned it all, so she had sent one of my uncles--my dad was the oldest ; he was maybe the second oldest-- ©Baylor University 4 because he didn&#039 ; t have family. Then so she had sent him to Hong Kong knowing that there&#039 ; s a fair chance we may land there. BRODY: How much earlier had she sent him? DANG: I want to say five, six years. BRODY: Okay, so she was pretty forward-thinking, then. DANG: Right, so that he would be settled and then she kept sending him money to save for us when we got there. BRODY: From the plumbing business? DANG: Well, this was my dad&#039 ; s side. BRODY: (speaking at same time) Oh, your dad&#039 ; s side, and the farm--yeah, okay. |00:03:48| DANG: I&#039 ; m sorry, yeah, it&#039 ; s confusing. So she was in all kinds of different--I always say she&#039 ; s kind of like the--like, if she was here she would be like, Warren Buffet, you know? (Brody laughs) She was really--she was seriously the--is still the smartest family member we have and just very--you know, not averse to risk-taking, and she just always found ways to run different businesses and take care of everyone. BRODY: And she was thinking far ahead if she sent him to Hong Kong. DANG: Right, right. She sent him to Hong Kong and she had set up all the boats for us to--you know, for us to go. ©Baylor University 5 BRODY: How many of you were going on the boats? DANG: Well, my dad has three brothers and three sisters, and then my grandparents. And then she also took two of my uncles from my mom&#039 ; s side, and then, of course, us four. So, you know, whatever that added up to be. |00:04:40| BRODY: Right. And so you went on the boats directly to Hong Kong? DANG: Yeah. Well, we really--you know, these weren&#039 ; t really--one, it was illegal, right? And then two, it wasn&#039 ; t--these sailors were not the best, so that&#039 ; s just from stories we had heard, that that&#039 ; s kind of where people landed. Sometimes you landed in Malaysia or sometimes you got captured by pirates and you never make it, or sometimes-- |00:05:06| BRODY: What was it like for you as a small child on that boat? Do you remember much? DANG: I just remember it being really crowded. I remember just always seeing ocean, right? Just endless ocean. And I think we were on there for about a month and a half, total. A side note is we--our boat crashed and landed near a little island in China called Hainan, and that was--so our boat was--you know, water was coming into the boat, and at night the tides rise. A lot of the people didn&#039 ; t know how to swim, so we didn&#039 ; t know what to do. I remember these two soldiers at the time came to the boat, and they said, you know, we couldn&#039 ; t get on land. They would have to send the message to their supervisors, ©Baylor University 6 which would take days, right, at the time. But luckily my dad, being Chinese, he was from that province. BRODY: Oh! DANG: So he spoke their language, you know? BRODY: That&#039 ; s convenient. That worked out. DANG: Yeah. BRODY: So was he able to interpret, then? DANG: Yeah. He was able to talk to them. And so we followed them on land, and when we--when a lot of refugees from Vietnam get on these boats they bring, like, gold and jewelry, watches, because they don&#039 ; t know if the cash would do anything wherever they landed. So they made a trade with us, that they would take that, and then they would feed us, and then they would fix our boat. |00:06:36| BRODY: Wow, so at this point, you&#039 ; re on land, on this little island. DANG: Yeah. We&#039 ; re on land. They put us in a big warehouse. BRODY: Do you remember your feelings at that time? DANG: Yeah, I remember. I remember, you know, we always got really simple rice soup every day. I remember the locals being really nice, because our warehouse had these little ©Baylor University 7 clear story that the window--you know, the glass was gone and they would throw potatoes through at night for us, you know? Just--they would cook-- BRODY: Just to help. DANG: --the potatoes and then threw them in there for us. And I remember everyone were on bikes. So that little island, I don&#039 ; t know if you know, is a sort of tourist--it&#039 ; s like Vegas now. BRODY: Now. |00:07:19| DANG: Yeah. But back then it was all fishermen and--you know. So I remember, like-- I remember events like, you know, one time they had two chairs in the warehouse and the whole village would get in line for a haircut, you know? I remember things like that, you know? Or these trucks would come in and unload, you know, like foods and dry goods, and then based on how many were in your family, you got tickets to go-- BRODY: To go take everything. DANG: Yeah. So we watched that, and I mean, obviously we didn&#039 ; t participate. We were just getting what we were getting. So I remember--and just I remember when we left on the boat that the whole village was on the banks, and they waved goodbye to us-- BRODY: Waving goodbye. DANG: Yeah, just really nice people, you know? ©Baylor University 8 BRODY: And you&#039 ; d stayed for a month and been welcomed there. DANG: Yeah. BRODY: So did you know the end--the timing of how long you&#039 ; d be there when you got there? Or was it just sort of-- |00:08:19| DANG: I didn&#039 ; t know, but I&#039 ; m sure they told us maybe-- BRODY: (speaking at same time) They had a sense of the month or so, um-hm. DANG: --you know, three weeks or whatever it took to fix the boat. And then from there we got to Hong Kong, and I remember that with the Coast Guard, you know, really loud saying, you know, get your boats to here and dock here, and don&#039 ; t jump in the water. There&#039 ; s sharks. BRODY: (speaking at same time) So it was a--right, there was a procedure. DANG: Yeah. And then I don&#039 ; t remember a lot of the paperwork and all that, you know? I just don&#039 ; t remember that. BRODY: Well, you were a kid. DANG: Yeah. I don&#039 ; t remember that. I just remember the big events like coming to land or something like that. BRODY: Did your parents seem calm? Were they worried? ©Baylor University 9 DANG: I think at some point you&#039 ; ve been out to sea so long and, you know, you always know it&#039 ; s a risk to do this. I think they were just--they were just happy to be on land, you know? BRODY: Finally, right, being there. Then, so from Hong Kong, how did you end up in Texas? |00:09:16| DANG: Yeah. So in Hong Kong, I believe--I&#039 ; m trying to remember chronologically-- then we were put in these refugee camps at first. So if you have family, then they do the paperwork, and then they come--they can take you out of the camps and you go live with them. So, of course, my uncle came. And then I believe my aunts and uncles on a separate boat--so my grandmom had two boats. It was, you know, my immediate family with my two uncles from my mom&#039 ; s-- BRODY: On your mom&#039 ; s side. DANG: And then the other boat was, you know, all my other uncles and aunts and my grandparents. And I believe somehow we got separated, of course, and I believe that my grandmom and grandad and my aunts and uncles came later. BRODY: Okay. Came here. DANG: Came to Hong Kong later. BRODY: To Hong Kong later, okay. |00:10:14| ©Baylor University 10 DANG: Yeah. And then--but somehow they got to go to the US before we did. And then I think at that time--California, by that time, had taken a lot of refugees. So I think they were starting to encourage--when you get to the point where you have to decide, they were encouraging, you know, other states. BRODY: Other states, sure. DANG: And Texas was a big one. So I think my grandmom and grandad and uncles and aunts went to Texas, Dallas. And so obviously, naturally, then, that&#039 ; s-- BRODY: You would follow. DANG: --since we came after them, that&#039 ; s where we ended up. BRODY: So did you make that decision in Hong Kong, in the camp there? DANG: Yes, um-hm. BRODY: Okay, so you&#039 ; d decide where you-- |00:10:58| DANG: Well, we came out and lived for a year, actually, and my parents got a job and-- you know? BRODY: And then you just decide, make decisions. DANG: I went to preschool and stuff like that. BRODY: Oh, did you? ©Baylor University 11 DANG: Yeah. And so--because it takes time. Because my grandparents had to settle here first, get everything, you know, settled, and then they had to sponsor us, so they-- BRODY: They sponsored--so they were your sponsors, not an outside voluntary agency. DANG: Exactly. That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. Yeah. So that took a while. |00:11:23| BRODY: So that answers that. So when you initially got to Texas, did you just move in with your grandparents then? DANG: Yeah, (laughs) there was a lot of people in one small place. BRODY: Yeah. Do you remember how many? What was that like? DANG: It was everyone. So three uncles, three aunts, my grandparents, my mom, my dad, and me. BRODY: Where was that house? DANG: Shady Brook? BRODY: Okay, in Dallas. DANG: So yeah. It&#039 ; s kind of near--it&#039 ; s kind of off of Walnut Hill at the time--I mean, all these places are gone now--and on the west side--yeah, on the west side. |00:12:05| ©Baylor University 12 BRODY: Over there. So at this point you were--so, preschool, or maybe kindergarten- aged? DANG: I hadn&#039 ; t started kindergarten because my birthday was late, you know? So I was going to start the year after that. BRODY: The year after. And how was your language at this point? You&#039 ; ve been around the block, (laughs) language-wise. DANG: Well, it&#039 ; s funny because starting kindergarten wasn&#039 ; t a problem, because, you know, we were pretty well-off when we were in Saigon, so I went to a preschool there that taught English. So I could read, like, Dr. Seuss stuff by the time-- BRODY: By the time you got here. DANG: Yeah. So it wasn&#039 ; t really that big of a deal. |00:12:39| BRODY: So that&#039 ; s--I mean, that was fortunate for you, as that makes the transition easier. So you&#039 ; re all living there off Walnut Hill, and what were your parents--what were the adults--in your recollection, what were they doing in terms of work or getting-- DANG: Yeah. So, I think a lot of my aunts worked at this place called Handbag, and--I mean, that was literally the name, and it was off of--as I remember, it stuck around for a long time--it was off of basically [US Highway] 75 and Forest [Lane], right before you turn--right before you can exit in the [Interstate] 635. So where all the medical buildings are right now? There was a place called Handbag. ©Baylor University 13 BRODY: Handbag. And what did they do? DANG: So they-- BRODY: They were sewing. DANG: You know, sewing, and it was like an assembly line, making handbags. And then my uncles, they worked at, like, 7-Eleven. You know, convenience stores. So my dad did that. BRODY: Was everyone as good at English as you were? DANG: No. No, I think my parents were probably--my dad especially was probably the best at it, but even he was--you know, it was pretty rough English, you know? And then my--at the time my grandparents were still relatively young. They worked at Presby [Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital Dallas??], you know, like, doing laundry or pushing cart, you know, the stretchers and stuff. Yeah, that was about it. I think it was convenience stores, Handbag, and Presby. And then, of course, by the time you get--you know, you meet whatever other Chinese or Vietnamese really quickly because there weren&#039 ; t many at the time, and then wherever they worked, right, that&#039 ; s where you&#039 ; re going to work. BRODY: Right, word of mouth. DANG: Yeah. (laughs) BRODY: Right. So that was what I was going to ask you. I mean, you may not know because you were young, but, you know, some people, their experience was that they ©Baylor University 14 were matched up with jobs through the agencies and the like, but it sounds like your family story is more word of mouth and-- DANG: Right. Right, right. |00:14:38| BRODY: And speaking of the community, it sounds like, you know, obviously it was relatively small-- DANG: Yeah, very small. BRODY: --at the time that you came. What do you remember about that community? Are there--you know, were there get-togethers? DANG: At the very beginning we all--everyone just lived separately. It was odd. Like, I don&#039 ; t know how that happened, like, if they placed people. And obviously, they were usually the lower-income housing. But then as people started working--you know, for instance, my parents had me, and then I have another aunt who had a husband and two children at the time--they had to move out, right, at some point so that they get more space. And then that&#039 ; s the same thing because it&#039 ; s such a small community, whoever moved found the place, like an apartment complex that was, you know, affordable, and that&#039 ; s who--you know, that&#039 ; s where you would move, so pretty soon-- BRODY: (speaking at same time) Right, the next move. DANG: Yeah. And then pretty soon everyone&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s kind of a herd mentality, you know? So then everyone moved. And then those communities really started to form. ©Baylor University 15 Because at first, I think when everyone got here, for one reason or another, everyone was really spread out. But then pretty soon in different--you know, there&#039 ; d be like three apartment complexes between Garland and Richardson where everyone was--you know, everyone knew each other. BRODY: Right and probably is comforting, especially for those who didn&#039 ; t know English as well and to be able to get some advice. DANG: Right. And then as soon as, you know, if they have a big family, they started sponsoring their siblings and they moved there, you know, and then pretty soon you have this little community. |00:16:17| BRODY: Did you enjoy being part of that community? Was there-- DANG: Yeah. I mean, obviously I went to school and I had other friends, you know? But, yeah, I did, because I think that--that was a really, you know, good time for my parents because they were--you know, they were young and they were working. No one had much money, but, you know, it was a totally different world, right? So like, going downtown or going to NorthPark Mall [NorthPark Center] back in the day was a big deal, you know? And that&#039 ; s how it worked, right? Like, if your tooth ached, whoever had gone to the dentist first, that&#039 ; s who you asked, and you would go to that dentist, right? (Brody laughs) So that&#039 ; s kind of how, you know-- BRODY: Was a network, yeah. ©Baylor University 16 DANG: Yeah. If you never bought a car, then the person [who] had bought a car would go with you, you know, to show you how you do the title and everything, and that&#039 ; s just kind of how it worked. |00:17:10| BRODY: Built-in advice and learning. Yeah, people remember, you know, being surprised by some customs or sort of how things are done. It sounds like the community kind of helped with that. Do you remember any American customs that surprised you, or Texan customs that surprised you? DANG: I&#039 ; m sure it surprised my parents, but I was so young, you know? Like my--you know, something very stereotypical, but they were surprised when my friends came over that they didn&#039 ; t take their shoes off, you know? That they would just trek through the place. BRODY: Yeah. Did your family continue to maintain the custom of taking shoes off? DANG: Now--yeah, they have a separate pair they wear in the house, but, yeah, so all my friends had to take their shoes off. (both laugh) What else? Customs? No, I would just--I remember hearing my parents, you know, like, the few times they would meet my friends&#039 ; parents or see them or--you know, my mom worked at a little restaurant at NorthPark that was called The Magic Pan. BRODY: Oh yeah. (laughs) ©Baylor University 17 DANG: I don&#039 ; t know ____??____. (laughs) And so she met some Americans that lived here all their--Texans who lived here all their lives, so sometimes we would hang out with them. And I just would remember that--you know, my parents mentioning certain things. Like, for instance, they said that, like, Americans seem to have this ability to really relax and let loose and have fun, you know? BRODY: And that felt different to them? DANG: You know, like they have a good laugh, and they have a good smile. Like, they seem to really enjoy life, you know? They&#039 ; re not always serious all the time. I think that&#039 ; s changed since then. (both laugh) BRODY: Little bit. |00:19:04| DANG: Yeah. And--what else, customs. Oh, like--this is a weird one, that they thought was weird. Like, the Chinese--like, they&#039 ; re always fighting over the bill, you know, usually. BRODY: Yes, yes. DANG: You know, when y&#039 ; all go out. But they were like, it&#039 ; s odd, these people can be really good friends, but it&#039 ; s just a custom, you know everyone pays for their own meal. There&#039 ; s no reason to say, &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; m going to get you this time. You get me--&quot ; It&#039 ; s just not as often, right? BRODY: (speaking at same time) Right. It&#039 ; s not part of the-- ©Baylor University 18 DANG: I mean, we do that sometimes, but not as often as they do. Like, you&#039 ; re always fighting for the bill back in the day. So little things like that. BRODY: Little things like that that you noticed. DANG: Yeah. I don&#039 ; t remember anything that really shocked them. |00:19:50| BRODY: Right. In your own experience of going to school--you know, so English, you were reading and you could speak, and so that part of the transition was fine, but what school did you go to? DANG: L. L. Hotchkiss [Elementary School]. BRODY: Okay. And you started there in kindergarten? DANG: Yeah, kindergarten. BRODY: And do you remember, were there a lot of other Vietnamese in your class, or not at all? DANG: No, zero. BRODY: So where you were living there really--at that point-- DANG: Yeah. So mostly I had white and black and some Mexican friends. That was it. No Asians. BRODY: So tell me what you remember about kindergarten and that experience. ©Baylor University 19 |00:20:28| DANG: And quickly about that, because a lot of my parents&#039 ; friends were slightly younger than them, so they didn&#039 ; t have kids. BRODY: (speaking at same time) They didn&#039 ; t have kids yet. DANG: Some of them were not even married. BRODY: Okay, so you were the pioneer. (laughs) DANG: So they either had--yeah. They either had kids that were in junior high or high school, or no kids. So it was fine because, you know, as kids you don&#039 ; t know, right? Now, my name was made fun of a lot, obviously. BRODY: Oh, was it? (laughs) DANG: That was about it. But as kids we just all played together, you know? BRODY: Right. And so you were really not aware of differences or-- DANG: No. I wasn&#039 ; t really aware. I don&#039 ; t ever--you know, I mean, to be completely honest, I mean, I had never met an African American person till I came here, but it didn&#039 ; t shock me or anything, you know? Like, I wasn&#039 ; t--you know, it wasn&#039 ; t weird, I just hung out with whoever. You know, like, I remember my birthday parties. We had little birthday--we would get a little cake and I was allowed to invite eight people, and I would mostly invite kids from my apartment. It was mostly Hispanic children and African American children, and that was about it, you know? ©Baylor University 20 BRODY: How about school, schoolwork itself? Was it--you just didn&#039 ; t know anything different, it sounds like. DANG: Yeah, it was--you know, it was easy at the time. (Brody laughs) |00:21:42| BRODY: And would--for your parents, being--you know, having gone to school in Vietnam and then now being parents in a whole different school system and culture, were there any challenges there that you remember? DANG: I think they were just in survival mode, you know? So I was actually left alone a lot because they had to--you know, I would wear a little necklace with my key, and I was pretty much left alone. And then sometime[s] my aunts and uncles would come and bring us food or something, you know, knowing that my parents weren&#039 ; t there. Yeah. So I was pretty self-sufficient. I would, you know, do my own homework and just--and I would be--I could--you know, by first grade I could cook ramen noodles or something, you know? BRODY: (laughs) That&#039 ; s pretty amazing(??). DANG: But they usually left me food, obviously. You know, leftovers or something. And I was allowed to go out and play because I had my key, and, you know, yeah. I think they were in total survival mode. You know, my mom worked at different places like a sandwich shop. She didn&#039 ; t know how to drive yet and we couldn&#039 ; t afford two cars, so she would have to walk to work, you know, so it had to be places that were close. And then if my dad was home from work and the timing worked out, he would drive her. So ©Baylor University 21 eventually they worked it out where my dad worked a night/graveyard shift at 7-Eleven so that, you know, there would be someone home during the day, but he slept obviously, and so I pretty much tended to myself a lot of times. BRODY: Did you have siblings? DANG: I do, but-- BRODY: Not at that time? DANG: Not at the time, and they planned it that way. They wanted to get a house and all that before they had another kid. |00:23:25| BRODY: Makes sense. So going forward, you know, in your schooling, where did you go next, in terms of middle school and-- DANG: Oh, middle school. Okay, so we lived in--you know, when we were in L. L. Hotchkiss, and that&#039 ; s another reason most of my friends that I hung out with were not Caucasian because the way it worked was that apartment bused to L. L. Hotchkiss, but then all the Caucasian kids mostly lived in single-family houses, so it was harder to, like, schedule people to drive over for birthday parties or sleepovers or anything like that. So when I was in third grade--before third grade, we moved to this apartment on Plano Road, because that was another sort of herd mentality, right? Like, these--a lot of people moved so we moved with them, and that was starting Forest Ridge Elementary [School]. That fed into-- ©Baylor University 22 BRODY: In Richardson? DANG: In Richardson. And then from there, we were still in the apartments that fed into Liberty [Junior High School], and then that&#039 ; s when my parents saved up enough money and they bought a house in Garland. And so I finished eighth grade at Liberty and then started high school, which was ninth through twelfth at North Garland [High School]. |00:24:51| BRODY: Got it. So that was a big accomplishment for your parents-- DANG: Yeah, huge accomplishment. BRODY: --to accomplish that goal of owning a house. DANG: Yeah. It was truly for them, I mean, literally the American dream. That&#039 ; s for them, to own a house. BRODY: Do they ever talk about that moment, that feeling? DANG: I&#039 ; m sure they were very proud, and I think my mom just wanted a house, you know, that they owned, and it was bigger and you didn&#039 ; t share walls with--you know, that kind of stuff. But I think, you know, that generation, for me, they were never--it was never outwardly celebratory, you know? It was always kept inside. BRODY: Quiet accomplishment, I guess. DANG: Yeah, that kind of stuff. So you didn&#039 ; t notice it. Like, there wasn&#039 ; t a party or anything, but yeah, I&#039 ; m sure they were happy. ©Baylor University 23 BRODY: Absolutely. Well, just looking at it from the outside, having come as a refugee, you know-- DANG: Absolutely. And it was such a big purchase--right?--for them. You know, for anyone, but for them especially at the time. So it was--you know, it was exciting, stressful, that kind of stuff. |00:25:57| BRODY: So Garland, of course, has a very large Vietnamese population. At the point that you guys moved to Garland, was that already pretty established? DANG: No. It still wasn&#039 ; t, and I think it was--that must&#039 ; ve been &#039 ; 88. So when I was there--by the time I graduated, absolutely. Now, absolutely. But even then, I always kind of got in at the beginning, you know? So there were a few, but not really. |00:26:27| BRODY: I mean, what is that like for you, then? I mean, it&#039 ; s a whole different experience when you come and you are, you know, everybody&#039 ; s one friend who&#039 ; s come as a refugee from Vietnam. What are your recollections of your own, you know, feelings around going through childhood and adolescence in this part of Dallas and Texas, being different? DANG: Sure. And I think one reason I acclimated really well was because, you know, one, I was an only child growing up, and my mom kept me pretty secluded because, you know, she was one of those that worried a lot. I had friends when I was in Saigon but ©Baylor University 24 very limited, you know. They would have to come over and I wasn&#039 ; t allowed to go out on my own. Obviously I was young. But also because I came so young. You know, like, I know friends who came when they were in junior high or even high school, and I think they had a harder time adjusting because, you know, by then you&#039 ; ve left some good friends, you don&#039 ; t speak the language as well, you&#039 ; re having--you&#039 ; re probably too busy trying to catch up in school and, you know--and then, you know, as you get older there&#039 ; s more of the cliques and all that kind of--so I didn&#039 ; t have to deal with that. I was in kindergarten, you know? Kids just--I don&#039 ; t even know how kids get along. You know, how they decide who to play with or who not to. They just played with everyone. So I was lucky in that sense. But by the time--you know, I made friends pretty easily. |00:28:05| BRODY: So it was just a nonissue. And what about discrimination or racism or anything like that? Was that something you were aware of, or-- DANG: I think it was more of the silly kid stuff. Like, my name and--I remember when I--you know, when I was younger, like, first through third grade, people would always want to have a fight with me because they thought I knew martial arts. (Brody laughs) You know, it was this total stereotype, but I can honestly say I--besides, like, just the teasing once in a while or, you know, you walk across the street and you meet someone who&#039 ; s just blatantly racist or something, I don&#039 ; t--I&#039 ; ve told someone this--I&#039 ; ve never felt like I didn&#039 ; t get something because of my race since I&#039 ; ve been here. And maybe I&#039 ; m blind to it, I&#039 ; m lucky. I just never--you know, whether it was a scholarship or a job position, I just never--that has never happened. ©Baylor University 25 BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. DANG: In fact, I think because my name is so odd, people remember, you know? And-- yeah, I just never--honestly never felt that. |00:29:10| BRODY: That is good news. You mentioned earlier that back in Vietnam your family was pretty well off, and then upon coming here, you know, again, being in survival mode-- DANG: Just starting over. BRODY: --and having--starting over. Was that sort of shift in social class or circumstance, was that something that was discussed in your family, or do you recall any challenges that were posed by that particular shift? DANG: Yeah, I think--you know, my mom never worked a day in her life until she came here. BRODY: Really. DANG: You know, she never had to. And so that was tough on her, but they were so sort of--my parents are so determined. You know, they suffer well, right? (Brody laughs) But I know that must&#039 ; ve been hard because she&#039 ; s never worked her entire life, and my dad worked but it was kind of like--you know, he worked in, like, helping build ships, but it wasn&#039 ; t like a hard, stressful--like, he didn&#039 ; t work because he needed the money to make a living. I mean, my grandmom had it taken care of. So I think that was a huge change for ©Baylor University 26 them. And then--but once again, like, I didn&#039 ; t know any better, because, you know, I lived in the apartments where all the other kids&#039 ; parents were probably at work too, and they were left alone a lot. So it wasn&#039 ; t like I experienced this amazing life and remembered all of that, and then we had to move to a tiny little place, you know? BRODY: Right, you just--it was what you knew. DANG: Yeah. I remember we lived well in Saigon, but I was so young, you know? It wasn&#039 ; t like I was already spoiled or anything, so I didn&#039 ; t really--you know, I didn&#039 ; t know, you know? BRODY: Yeah. And for them it was just they were surviving and happy to be here. DANG: Yeah. I just remember not having them both together a lot, because they had to take turns being at the--working at different times so someone would watch over me. So I remember that. I remember missing that, like, why are we not all hanging out, you know? |00:31:16| BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s--but how it had to be until-- DANG: Yeah, right. BRODY: --later. Your friends growing up in the apartment were--it was a diverse group. How has that childhood that you had and that experience of being in a pretty multiracial and multicultural environment in your formative years here in Texas, how has that shaped your ideas about what it means to be an American? ©Baylor University 27 DANG: I think--I just think I understand people better. I really do, and it&#039 ; s a great--it really was--it&#039 ; s a huge advantage because, you know, I can talk to anybody, and I just--I just, within five minutes, I kind of understand where people are coming from a little better, you know? Like if I was to use the extreme, what if I went to this very exclusive private school, say, right, and I never worked, and I went to a private college and then I just went straight to finance or something, you know, where it&#039 ; s just--you know, you don&#039 ; t see--but I got the total opposite. You know, like when I went to UT [University of Texas] architecture school, it was tiny, but it also had the highest SAT average in all of-- at the time, in &#039 ; 93. And it seemed like when I went there--because North Garland wasn&#039 ; t that great of a school. I would&#039 ; ve preferred to go to Berkner [High School], but you know--you probably know, you go to Richardson, you get the same house and it&#039 ; s like $10,000 more, you know, because of the schools. And so when I got to UT, for instance, in the architecture program, it was mostly Caucasian, a lot of them were from Houston and really good private schools, and I remember they had all been to Europe. You know what I mean? And then like, a couple of friends, their parents were in the oil business, but they had a house in Malaysia, they had a house--and so they had been everywhere. And when they talked about current events, like, their high school, they were writing about very serious current events, and my high school we were just--you know, we were doing the--you know, like reading To Kill A Mockingbird, that kind of stuff, just normal. But they were obviously-- |00:33:44| BRODY: A different level. ©Baylor University 28 DANG: --way ahead, yeah. But I still--I adapted well, so I was all over the place. Like, I remember my first-grade teacher, she saw how well I drew and colored. So she collected it all, and then she sent it off to this program--and I think it still exists--called the Young Artists Program. It was a private art school that you went to after school on weekends or in the summer, but it was in the YMCA at Highland Park and you had to pay a lot of money. But she talked the director there into letting me go free. So when I went there I met--I remember going to arts class and there was a kid named Jed. And I went there all the way up to junior high. BRODY: Oh, really? DANG: Yeah. So my dad and my mom would take me there after school or on the weekend, their summer camp. And he would always have, like, a limo driver drop him off. So I went from--and we were still--you know, I started in first grade. So I was still living in the apartments that have been torn down, you know? So I was hanging out with, you know, just kids. BRODY: The kids, yeah. |00:35:00| DANG: Yeah, kids that lived in apartments and low-income apartments, and then here I am in Highland Park taking art class with--you know, I just remember the things they talked about, you know? Like, we went to a movie like, two times a year, and that was a huge deal. And I remember this kid saying, &quot ; Well, my mom&#039 ; s off to Europe for two weeks with her friends, so my dad said that every night he&#039 ; s going to take me to a ©Baylor University 29 different movie.&quot ; And then he would come in and tell us about all the movies that he saw, you know? BRODY: Wow. DANG: Yeah, and then like one kid went to Disney[land] and somehow his parents hooked it up where he got to meet Michael Jackson. Like, it was just ridiculous, right? BRODY: Right. DANG: And so I&#039 ; ve always been in those situations, and I--so, from a very young age, I interacted with people from all ranges of life, and I think that&#039 ; s huge for me-- BRODY: You&#039 ; re flexible. DANG: --right now, huge. Like, in my business I deal with people from all parts of life. |00:36:01| BRODY: What do you do now? Are you working as an architect? DANG: Yeah. So me and my business partner, we own an architecture firm. BRODY: What kind of buildings do you design? DANG: We mostly do residential multifamily, but we do some commercial. We&#039 ; re starting to get some commercial. So, you know, we work for just a couple who wants an addition to, you know, to a person who owns a golf course. You know? So-- BRODY: So that flexibility goes-- ©Baylor University 30 DANG: Yeah, knowing how people work and how they see the world. You know, and then of course we&#039 ; re on job sites, you know, looking over work from contractors and subcontractors. So you meet people, and I just think growing up like that really-- BRODY: Was an asset. DANG: --was immense. |00:36:47| BRODY: And in particular the refugee experience, how has that informed your worldview? Just having come that particular way? DANG: Especially these days, right? Dang. You know, I think that--I think depending on what you want to focus on, I think a lot of refugees, you know, they risk their lives to come here. And they come here because they usually want--usually, the primary reason is always a better life for their kids. That&#039 ; s always their main goal, and I think that--and I think--so my mom has fourteen brothers and sisters, and my dad has three brothers and three sisters. So I have a lot of cousins. And I was the first to go to college, because I was the oldest. But it&#039 ; s kind of funny if you compare the--if you purely look at--and it&#039 ; s a bad way to look at it, but for the sake of discussion--if you look at purely academics, what type of degrees you have and where you went to school and how you&#039 ; re doing in your career, it&#039 ; s me and the older cousins that have done the best, especially the ones that came over that were not born here. So it can&#039 ; t be an accident, I think. I think it&#039 ; s because--you know, I think when you&#039 ; re a refugee, you understand how hard it is to even get here, you know? ©Baylor University 31 BRODY: And you&#039 ; ve lived it. DANG: Yeah, and you&#039 ; ve lived it. So sometimes, as hard as, like, running a business is, the stress and liability and all that, I mean it doesn&#039 ; t compare to getting on a little boat. BRODY: And knowing that you already did that and survived. DANG: Yeah, and trying to survive that and having your boat crash. You know what I mean? So I just think that it&#039 ; s a shame that maybe people don&#039 ; t look at that side of it, right? |00:38:53| BRODY: Right, right. Well, that makes me think about just some generational differences within the community. Are you still involved and active in the Vietnamese community in Dallas? DANG: I&#039 ; m not as much, actually. I&#039 ; m pretty active in the architectural community, and I&#039 ; m very active within UT--Arlington because I taught there for five years. BRODAY: Oh, did you? DANG: So, you know, I&#039 ; m pretty--so that kind of takes a lot of my time. |00:39:24| BRODY: Right. Just looking then from the outside, what are your perceptions of the Vietnamese community in Dallas or North Texas right now? I mean, it&#039 ; s now been, you ©Baylor University 32 know, forty-something years since the first people came. What kind of a community is it, from your perspective? DANG: It&#039 ; s a really tight community. It&#039 ; s still the same kind of herd mentality. Like, you&#039 ; ll see--you know, like people joke about Koreans having donut shops or dry cleaners, Vietnamese doing nails. It&#039 ; s just because they trust that the success of their own people in a certain field will mean success for them, you know? So that&#039 ; s why they do that. It&#039 ; s very tight-knit, everyone knows everybody. I think they&#039 ; re really good entrepreneurs. You know, like if you think about the Korean community, for instance, it&#039 ; s rare to see--you know, in my parents&#039 ; type of work, which is non-white collar, it&#039 ; s rare to see a Korean person, because they either do white-collar work or they open their own shop, whatever it happens to be. You rarely see them at Handbag or--you know. BRODY: Whereas the Vietnamese community--maybe, do you think that has something to do with language when they got here, or-- |00:40:50| DANG: I think--if I had to guess, I think the Korean community is the most tight-knit. Like if you open a barbershop, the Koreans will go to you, because it&#039 ; s a Korean barbershop, you know? BRODY: Right. DANG: Like, even at Chinese restaurants, you rarely see Koreans. But you&#039 ; ll see Chinese at Korean restaurants. They support each other&#039 ; s business. They buy insurance from each other, you know, and I think that&#039 ; s why they&#039 ; re able to start their own business more. ©Baylor University 33 BRODY: Right, right, whereas the Vietnamese community, you think, is maybe different? DANG: They&#039 ; ll just go where the prices are good, just like anyone else, I think, you know? BRODY: Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. DANG: So whereas Koreans are very--you know, like you go into any Korean bakery, it&#039 ; s mostly Koreans. BRODY: That&#039 ; s an interesting observation, yeah. DANG: Like, yeah--like, you go to an Indian restaurant and you&#039 ; ll see Chinese and every--but you don&#039 ; t hardly see Koreans. |00:41:43| BRODY: Yeah. I know that--I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; re involved in any of the churches or the-- DANG: No, I think I kind of took my dad&#039 ; s side where I&#039 ; m kind of atheist. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) I hear you. DANG: And my mom is very lightweight Catholic, you know? She&#039 ; ll go a couple of times a year. BRODY: Right. So it&#039 ; s not--that was not a factor at all-- ©Baylor University 34 DANG: No, that has not been much of a factor. |00:42:02| BRODY: --in the integration process. So, just trying to think about, you know, some of the things that we&#039 ; ve discussed today. You know, in your own experience it seems that your parents as well as yourself really assimilated very smoothly into life here, and when you think, though--when you think back and look back at your life and your family&#039 ; s experience, you know, you talked about the American dream. What does it mean, to you, to say, you know, your family has lived the American dream or that you have? What does that mean to you? DANG: I think, you know, the house was a symbol, right? But I think it&#039 ; s a symbol for, &quot ; Hey, look, I can do whatever I want in my backyard now,&quot ; you know? And the apartments you don&#039 ; t really have a yard or you can&#039 ; t just put whatever you want, you know? So I think it&#039 ; s the freedom to choose things and to do what you want, and I think that&#039 ; s ultimately for me, it&#039 ; s the same, you know? To be able to open my own business. BRODY: Right. To have that kind of freedom. |00:43:12| DANG: Yeah. The freedom to open my own business. And before I forget, one thing I wonder, actually, when you talk to all these refugees and immigrants and especially the Vietnamese immigrants, I&#039 ; ve always wondered this myself is: there is someone who had a very similar experience than me, if for some reason they--at least on the surface, they kept more of the culture. Like, you can see. You know? Like, maybe they know how to ©Baylor University 35 cook Vietnamese better than I do. Maybe they--some reason or another, their friends are mostly Vietnamese, whereas mine are all over the place, even though they went to college. I would be really curious. I&#039 ; ve always wondered that, because I have Vietnamese friends that are like that. They&#039 ; re friends with me, but most of their friends are Vietnamese. And I always wonder why--how--we lived a very similar life, you know? And I&#039 ; m curious, have you found that? BRODY: Yeah. I mean, some people say that the culture and that sort of the age that they were at when they came and how many family members they lived with and all of that shapes the passing on of the values. I would--you know, just to kind of go on that theme, want to kind of explore with you--I mean, what values or cultural, I don&#039 ; t know, identity would you ascribe to Vietnamese themselves? |00:44:54| DANG: I think very family-oriented--and this is some Chinese, too--very willing to take care of the parents when they&#039 ; re old. Usually pretty frugal, always thinking of their kids instead of themselves. And I have to say, it&#039 ; s changed since. BRODY: How so? DANG: I think we&#039 ; re all becoming more Americanized, whatever that means. BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s what I was wondering. What do you think that means? DANG: Yeah, my parents&#039 ; generation, it&#039 ; s almost embarrassing if you don&#039 ; t take care of your elders. But then the newer generation, it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, we can&#039 ; t live with them,&quot ; right? ©Baylor University 36 Like, we can take care of them but we&#039 ; re not living together in the same house, you know? (laughs) That&#039 ; s just not--that&#039 ; s--I think that&#039 ; s more how I feel-- BRODY: Getting Americanized? DANG: Yeah, Americanized. BRODY: More individual. DANG: Yeah, individual. Oh, like I still see my parents once a week, at least. That&#039 ; s really important. BRODY: So that&#039 ; s a key part of the being Vietnamese and maintaining that contact with the family. DANG: Yeah, yeah. Right. So, you know--what else? |00:46:20| BRODY: The language? Do you still speak the language? DANG: Yes. I speak very little Vietnamese, I speak some Cantonese. BRODY: I assume with your parents, then, it&#039 ; s Cantonese primarily? DANG: Um-hm, yeah. But then if I see my aunts and uncles and my grandmom, we&#039 ; d speak in Vietnamese. Yeah. Hardworking. Education always being super important. BRODY: Right. Did your parents really encourage you to keep going? ©Baylor University 37 DANG: Oh yeah. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. And then there&#039 ; s always these, like, stereotypes, right? Like Ivy League schools being really important, you know. And I&#039 ; m still talking about their generation. I think it&#039 ; s changed now where sports were not really that encouraged, you know, but musical instruments and art was really encouraged. You know? Like that kind of stuff, I mean, that was to T. Like even my sister who&#039 ; s ten years younger, all her and her friends were forced to play piano (laughs) even though they had no interest in that, you know? BRODY: (laughs) I think many of us were. DANG: Yeah, I know. It&#039 ; s very similar. But, yeah, I think family is a huge value, and not to say that Americans in general are not, but it&#039 ; s just a really high priority. BRODY: Yeah. It&#039 ; s an interesting question that you posed, though: the differences between different people with similar experiences. |00:47:40| DANG: Right. But one thing I&#039 ; ll tell you that&#039 ; s interesting is--so I&#039 ; m very similar in that, you know, I see my parents and try to take care of the elderly. But when it came to them making decisions for my life, I totally went against the grain. BRODY: Oh really? DANG: Yeah. BRODY: What did they want you to do? ©Baylor University 38 DANG: They probably wanted me to do--you know, be a doctor or lawyer or something like that, and I just wasn&#039 ; t interested in terms of my social life, and I just never-- somehow I never-- BRODY: But they were supportive of that art-- DANG: Yes, they were, but they--you know, you could--you know, it was definitely not how they would choose, and that&#039 ; s the same thing as when I talked about earlier where some kids would just do that, right? Okay, I&#039 ; ll go do that. But I was completely against the grain on that. And, you know, I don&#039 ; t know why that was. I just--I don&#039 ; t know how that worked out, why me. You would think my younger cousins would be like that, but I--yeah, I just never in any--pretty much any part of my life, like--you know, like Vietnamese parents are very--they&#039 ; re very supportive, but they&#039 ; re--you know, like most middle-class Vietnamese, if their kids can get into any college, they can pay for it. That&#039 ; s usually what their goal is, right? Or their goal. BRODY: College. |00:49:15| DANG: Yeah. They&#039 ; re supportive, but they&#039 ; re also kind of controlling, you know? Like, okay, you&#039 ; re going to play the piano and then you&#039 ; re going to do this. You&#039 ; re going to go become a doctor. You&#039 ; re going to go--you know? You&#039 ; re going to live in the dorm for-- you know. So they&#039 ; re very--but, one, my parents couldn&#039 ; t afford to do that, so maybe they had to let me choose myself, or where you&#039 ; re going to buy a house and all that. I made all those decisions-- ©Baylor University 39 BRODY: Yourself? DANG: --myself. And I didn&#039 ; t really--I didn&#039 ; t really take advice very seriously, I guess? I don&#039 ; t know why. Maybe that&#039 ; s just a personality trait. I don&#039 ; t know if it-- BRODY: Right. Well, and having had the freedom as you were growing up to make those decisions. DANG: Right. But that&#039 ; s different, I think, from most, especially ones that came here very early and were born in Vietnam. I think it was, &quot ; Okay, Mom and Dad wants me to do this. I&#039 ; m going to do it.&quot ; |00:50:12| BRODY: Yeah, that it&#039 ; s like another cultural difference. Have you been back to Vietnam? DANG: No, I haven&#039 ; t ; nor China. I&#039 ; d love to go to both and see. I&#039 ; d love to. Yeah, everyone who&#039 ; s been back tell[s] me it&#039 ; s great. I think a lot of people I know that have been back, though, didn&#039 ; t come on a boat, so it&#039 ; s a little traumatic. Like, my mom won&#039 ; t ever go back because it just reminds her of--you know, and then there were things where, you know, when we left and when my grandparents left they just confiscated their houses and just--you know what I mean? Like it&#039 ; s hard for them to go see that. So I think they don&#039 ; t have as much interest. But then my aunts--my mom, you know, who had a big family, her siblings that were younger that her didn&#039 ; t come until, gosh, what year? I was in junior high, so maybe mideighties or something? So they came on a plane. ©Baylor University 40 BRODY: They came--yeah, much later. DANG: So they go back all the time, you know? They love it, you know, to go back and see their friends and all that. But most of my parents&#039 ; friends are here, you know, because they were the same age, they went on a boat, and so my parents don&#039 ; t have as much of an urge to go back. BRODY: And a tie? DANG: Yeah, but they--my aunts and uncles go back all the time. BRODY: Yeah, so, I mean, like we were talking about before, the timing matters a lot. DANG: Yeah, absolutely. And they probably feel more acclimated there than here, even today. |00:51:39| BRODY: So is your whole family--is everyone still in this area? DANG: Well, my mom&#039 ; s side&#039 ; s all over the place, yeah, (laughs) because there&#039 ; s so many of them. But my dad&#039 ; s side? Yes, they&#039 ; re all here. All of them. BRODY: Do you get together as a family? DANG: Yeah, yeah. I&#039 ; d say--I see my immediate family more, but maybe three, four times a year, absolutely. And now I see my cousins more, yeah. |00:52:06| ©Baylor University 41 BRODY: Okay. Well, that&#039 ; s good. Is there--I&#039 ; m just trying to make sure that we covered everything. Oh, thinking about politics. Is that something that you&#039 ; re kind of on top of in terms of either here or in Vietnam? DANG: Well, my dad is very--he&#039 ; s very sort of China-centric, so, you know, I got him all these Chinese channels, so he watches this and he&#039 ; ll tell me all that, so I hear a lot about that. I don&#039 ; t know much about the politics in Vietnam. I know a little bit about politics and where I stand here, but no, not in Vietnam. I don&#039 ; t keep up very much. BRODY: Yeah, because you didn&#039 ; t really live there. DANG: Yeah, I didn&#039 ; t really live there, so, you know-- |00:52:58| BRODY: Do you think of yourself as Vietnamese American, American, or some other label? DANG: I think I&#039 ; m Vietnamese Chinese American. Yeah. I think as I get older I see a lot of things I do that&#039 ; s very similar to how my parents did it, and then I see some thing[s], those are very opposite, you know? BRODY: Right, right. I mean, the question of identity is really what--you know, what we&#039 ; re trying to get at. DANG: Okay. ©Baylor University 42 BRODY: There was thinking about--you know, just in our conversation we&#039 ; ve kind of learned a lot about the things that were important to you that kind of shaped your worldview, so, again, I was curious of how you thought of yourself. DANG: Yeah, and I think--you know, in the American sense I really believe in individuals. Like I just think--you know, with this country, and I know there&#039 ; s people behind the scenes that we don&#039 ; t give credit to, but for the most part when times are tough or even when they&#039 ; re not, there&#039 ; s always individuals that make huge, huge impacts. But when it comes to friends and family and people at my office, there&#039 ; s this--I always think of this sort of group dynamic, you know? I never forget that I&#039 ; m just a tiny little speck in the universe, you know? But then when you think about in specifically your career and what you want to do, I do believe that individuals can do immense things. |00:54:45| BRODY: I agree, I agree, and I think your family story and your story is a testament to that. Well, those are about all the questions I have, but is there anything else or any other stories that you would like to share or that I&#039 ; ve forgotten to ask? DANG: I think the interesting for me now is looking back. Like I feel like, you know, like lately, especially in an academic setting, there&#039 ; s a lot of students, exchange students, from Mainland China, which, you know, my parents always raised us really as Chinese. So a lot of things people find difficult is they always think--see, with the Asians, if you&#039 ; re Korean, it doesn&#039 ; t matter if you&#039 ; re born in Paris, you still call yourself Korean. BRODY: You&#039 ; re Korean, yes. ©Baylor University 43 DANG: Same with the Chinese, same with the Vietnamese, you know? So they raised us as Chinese, but when I see now actual, you know, Chinese people born in mainland here, it&#039 ; s really odd. Like, they seem really foreign to me because I have nothing in common with them. They have certain things that are really odd to me, you know? And my parents have visited China a few times and my dad&#039 ; s very proud, and even he had a hard time. Like, for instance, at the subways, there&#039 ; s no line ever, or anywhere. There&#039 ; s no line. You just go. So he found that very rude, you know? Because he&#039 ; s so used to having an orderly line and who&#039 ; s in front of you goes first. So I find the same thing. Like, I&#039 ; ve had students who were from mainland, and when I went to UT there were a couple of--and it was really difficult to interact with them sometimes because their culture is so different. BRODY: Even though you personally identify--right. (laughs) DANG: Was raised somewhat Chinese, right? Yeah, it&#039 ; s just really weird, you know? BRODY: I understand that. (laughs) |00:56:56| DANG: Yeah, so I think that&#039 ; s interesting. But it&#039 ; s fun to look at it that way now because I&#039 ; m trying to process it and, you know, think how was I when I got here? How different did I appear to other people in my actions and all that? But it&#039 ; s interesting. It&#039 ; s fun to see it that way because I feel like--seeing them makes me feel more American even, you know? Because, like, I wouldn&#039 ; t do that that way, you know? BRODY: Right. That&#039 ; s--it really brings to light some of the differences between culture and values and norms that you&#039 ; ve grown accustomed to that aren&#039 ; t necessarily cultural. ©Baylor University 44 DANG: Right. BRODY: That&#039 ; s another interesting point that you&#039 ; ve raised there. |00:57:45| DANG: And then sometimes they come here and it&#039 ; s only temporary. They know that in their head, so maybe they don&#039 ; t acclimate as well? BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s a good point too. DANG: We came here ; this is our home. Period. We&#039 ; re not moving again. But they&#039 ; re coming here just for college or for business a few years and then they go home, you know? They just want a degree from here or they want to say, &quot ; I worked on Wall Street for five years,&quot ; you know? So maybe they&#039 ; re not as interested in acclimating, you know? BRODY: Right, the mindset. DANG: Right. So it&#039 ; s totally--it&#039 ; s very interesting to watch. |00:58:20| BRODY: Do you have children? DANG: No. BRODY: No. So, sort of, that&#039 ; s the next stuff, right? Thinking about what values are the values that are the ones you would want to transmit from your own parents to your children. ©Baylor University 45 DANG: Right, right. BRODY: Well, thank you so much for your time and-- DANG: You&#039 ; re welcome, I hope I was able to give you some stuff to work with. BRODY: No, this was amazing. I really appreciate your time and sharing your memories. It&#039 ; s an important story and I&#039 ; m glad that we can record your part of it. Thank you. DANG: Okay. Well, thanks for having me. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2019oh001_btba_007.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bang Dang Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2019oh001_btba_007 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-01-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/d5625ed0491902ddb1d4b68e4f1b5bd9.jpg 971e62b0fa579c9f1d61118185fd886f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bac Tran OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Bac Tran, November 5, 2018 2018oh006_btba_005 1:23:45 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Bac Tran Betsy Brody mp3 oh-audio-dig-tran_b_20181105.mp3 1:|14(5)|21(11)|28(17)|36(13)|43(4)|52(2)|59(6)|68(12)|78(7)|83(9)|92(10)|98(11)|106(14)|115(1)|122(1)|129(7)|138(1)|148(6)|155(7)|162(11)|171(9)|180(6)|188(13)|195(2)|204(4)|212(2)|221(7)|231(6)|240(5)|247(8)|257(2)|262(10)|273(11)|280(11)|286(13)|293(6)|300(1)|308(10)|316(3)|324(3)|330(2)|337(1)|345(1)|353(2)|361(16)|370(1)|379(8)|388(8)|395(1)|403(12)|412(4)|419(3)|428(1)|433(12)|441(9)|449(8)|456(13)|465(6)|473(12)|481(8)|491(5)|497(7)|506(1)|514(4)|523(6)|532(1)|540(5)|547(7)|554(8)|562(6)|570(1)|576(12)|584(1)|592(13)|599(14)|608(1)|615(8)|623(3)|629(9)|637(1)|644(2)|650(1)|657(11)|657(12)|657(13)|657(14)|657(15) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/114142 Aviary audio 0 Introduction BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is November 5, 2018. I’m interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Bac Tran. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History, and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. All right, good morning, Mr. Tran. TRAN: Good morning. BRODY: I’m so excited to talk to you today. Brody begins the interview and introduces Mr. Bac Tran and the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. 26 Leaving Vietnam Let’s start out, just—if you could tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam. TRAN: Yes. In Vietnam I was a high school teacher. I had been teaching the chemistry and biology. And then in April 1975 when the south of Vietnam was about to collapse and everybody was panicked, I was originated from the north. I was born as a Catholic and with anti-communists, so I had more reason to fear to live under the control of the communists. But it happened that my brother was working for US embassy at the time, and they allow every US embassy employee family to get out of the country, and I was a member of his family. That’s why I came over here. BRODY: So because of your brother’s connections and his work for the US embassy, his whole family—so how many members of the family were evacuated through that? TRAN: Yes, his family has four children, he and his wife. That’s six, and my mother, my two sisters, and me. The sisters and me, we’re all single, that’s why we were regarded as a member of his family. BRODY: Okay, so he was responsible for all of you as well as your mother and his own family. So were you living in Saigon at that time? TRAN: I was in the Saigon at the time. Actually, I was a high school teacher in the central of Vietnam, and by the time the communists almost took over that area, so I escaped and ran to the south, and I get on the Vietnam navy ship, and they took us to the south of Vietnam and put us in a refugee camp in Phú Quốc. It’s in the south of Vietnam. BRODY: Okay, so you came from central Vietnam, fleeing to south Vietnam and were in a refugee camp. TRAN: Yes, and then my brother went to Phú Quốc, went to that island, looked for me, and took me back to the capital of Vietnam. BRODY: Wow, what was that day like? Did you know he was coming for you? TRAN: No. That is in around April, April fifteenth. So we were living in Saigon for a couple of weeks, and then my brother is in charge for the evacuation of his employees out of the country. And so he stayed behind, but I and my—and his family and my sisters and my mother, we all got out of the country on April 25. BRODY: April 25, 1975. Mr. Bac Tran discuses his job and life in Vietnam as well as his family's evacuation out of Vietnam. Catholicism ; Communism ; escape from Vietnam ; Fall of Saigon ; religion ; US Embassy ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War 252 Journey to the United States started to be under intense artillery bombardment. And we reunited with my brother at Guam island a few days after that. And then we were flown to US and stayed in Camp Pendleton, a marine base, for more than a month. Then through the USCC, a voluntary agency, we were sponsored by the University of Plano, now a defunct university, and we came to Dallas in July 1975. BRODY: Okay, so the first place that you went was Guam, or the Philippines, then— TRAN: Philippines, then Guam. BRODY: Then Camp Pendleton. TRAN: Then Camp Pendleton, yeah. BRODY: And were you all together the whole time? TRAN: Yeah, we all together. We reunited with my brother in Guam. |00:05:39| BRODY: So tell me—I mean, how did you feel when you were in Guam and before he got there? What was the feeling in the family? TRAN: We was—when we came to the Philippines, staying in the navy base, I was so fearful because I don’t know if my brother will be able to reunite with us or not, because he was still in Saigon. BRODY: Right. It must have been scary. TRAN: Yeah, it is very scary. But we have no choice. After staying there for a few days, then they start to fly us to the Guam. But it’s just like a miracle. We were so tired and we slept in the camp in the tent, and then in the morning, I suddenly saw my brother walking in. He’s looking for us also, he walk around and walk around, and then he saw us and he walk in the camp. BRODY: Were you so surprised? TRAN: Yeah, we so surprised and so happy. |00:06:56| BRODY: So happy. And how was it with having four small children with your group? Was that difficult? TRAN: It was difficult because at that time when we were still in the Subic Bay, the US navy base, the youngest one, my youngest nephew, he was sick. And at the time, if any kids got sick severely, they have to take the kid out from us and they take him, put him into the hospital. BRODY: So you were separated from— TRAN: Yeah, and we were so scared, but fortunately my nephew got well after that— BRODY: And they were able to reunite you. TRAN: —and recovered after that, so that—yeah, he was not separated from us. BRODY: Good, that’s good. So Camp Pendleton, you were there for— TRAN: Yeah, Camp Pendleton. We was there from May until June, more than a month, about a month and twenty days or something like that, because we were big family. And you know that in the US, the Americans only have smaller family, they cannot afford to sponsor that big family. BRODY: So during your time in Camp Pendleton you were working to try to find a sponsor for the whole family? TRAN: The Department of Immigration together with the voluntary agency they called the VolAgs [Voluntary Agency], it’s nine voluntary agencies, including in that is USCC [United States Catholic Conference], for instance, and the HIAS [Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society] is a Jewish agency, et cetera. They work together and look for the sponsors. It’s strange, and we’re just like—suddenly we got into the United States, completely different environment for us, and Tran recounts his experiences and hardships from traveling to the United States from Guam and the Philippines. Camp Pendleton ; Dallas ; Guam ; Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society ; HIAS ; leaving Vietnam ; Phillippines ; refugee camp ; refugees ; Subic Bay ; Texas ; United States Catholic Conference ; University of Plano ; USCC ; VolAgs 553 Adjusting to life in the United States And we arrived to the Philippines and stay in the US navy base for several days. And my brother left Saigon on April twenty-seventh, and he was pretty lucky, because on April twenty-eighth the Tan Son Nhut, the only airport in the capital, BRODY: What was the most different thing for you? TRAN: The most different thing is the culture. We want—like, in Vietnam, we normally want to live together as community. And when we go over here, even one Vietnamese priest, he’s very well-educated, he graduated from German, he also—even that, he always ask us to pray so that we can stay together. Yeah, but over here, the—I think the—over here we really have the experience with the immigration, because through the course of history all the immigration from all over the world goes over here, so the department— immigration departments and the voluntary agencies, they’re very experienced about how to deal with the immigrants. So instead of put us together in one place, they distribute us throughout the country, okay. And that—secondly, when we come over here, the very first feeling that we have is: this is peaceful country. In our country is the war all the time. BRODY: It’s very different. TRAN: Yeah, the thirty, forty years, yeah. So this country—when we first got into the airport and they ship us to the base, we look through and we see, “Huh, the society is very peaceful.” BRODY: Right. No conflict that you could see. TRAN: No conflict yeah, yeah, you can see it. |00:11:19| BRODY: So how did that make you feel? TRAN: Me feel—we don’t—the first feeling we have is we really enjoy the environment, and people treat us very kindly. But also we just, as I said, we just kind of feel numb. We were not prepared to come over here. Yeah, we were not prepared. BRODY: You weren’t planning, or it wasn’t part of your plan. TRAN: Yeah. But we panic and we feel numb and we don’t—it’s just like we got—we don’t have maps, something like that. We’re disoriented. BRODY: Yeah, disoriented. TRAN: Yeah, completely. BRODY: And numb. Tran describes his initial reaction to the differences between living in the United States and Vietnam. 752 Finding a Sponsor But you wanted to have the one sponsor to take all of you, and that was challenging, but ultimately you found— TRAN: Yeah, it was challenging and we keep waiting. Every day, we keep waiting, we’re waiting, and finally they call us and let us know that we have a sponsor. But the sponsor we have over here is the University of Plano. They only sponsor for the transition time. |00:13:11| BRODY: Okay, so University of Plano transitioned your family for just the transition? TRAN: And then from there they will find out a permanent sponsor. We came to the—we are the first largest group who came to Dallas. BRODY: Right, your family. TRAN: Yeah, who came to Dallas. And we were living in Plano, but we must move out of the campus before the school year. BRODY: Oh I see, so this was happening in July? TRAN: The school year sometime by the August, and they start somewhere around by August, or something like that. Tran recalls the challenges of finding a sponsor for his entire family. Dallas ; Plano ; sponsor ; sponsorship ; Texas ; University of Plano 834 Finding Work In America Hunt Oil Company, they move their data centers to Dallas from Philadelphia and Tulsa. So they build a huge big data center over at the Empire Central [Drive] and Stemmons [Freeway], in north Dallas. So they need the helpers, and my brother and I, we got the job. Talking about jobs is funny thing, is when we were living in the campus, there are a couple employees from the human resource, from the Department of Human Resource. They help us to look for the job. But you know, most of the Vietnamese refugees, we couldn’t speak English or couldn’t speak English very well. So it’s fairly difficult to look for a job. BRODY: Yes. TRAN: I remember a man, his name is—I don’t remember his full name, but his name was Mr. Vano. He always look for a job for us and we only end up with the $2.10 an hour, that’s the minimum wage at the time. BRODY: So, minimum wage job. TRAN: And we jokingly call him as Mr. Two-Ten. (laughs) BRODY: Mr. Two-Ten. (laughs) That’s really funny. TRAN: Mr. Two-Ten because—but he’s very nice, he’s very nice. He even invite us to his home sometimes. BRODY: So was he an American? TRAN: Yeah, he’s an American. BRODY: And he was just interested in helping Vietnamese get jobs. TRAN: Yeah, look for us to get a job, yeah. But unfortunately we don’t speak—we didn’t speak English very well. We didn’t have skills that the company needed, so we had him as Two-Ten, and (laughs) we call him as Mr. Two-Ten. |00:16:32| BRODY: (laughs) That’s very funny. So that entry into the job market—you know, how did you get the job at Sun Oil Company? TRAN: Yeah, at Sun Oil—because at that time, as I said, the data center, the Sun Oil just build—Sun Oil just build their data center over the Stemmons in north Dallas. And they need some helpers with no previous experience required. BRODY: Oh, good. TRAN: Yeah. So all we do—even the name is as a computer operator—but we come over here, we got in and they have a huge room with all the tape drives. So the tape drive we would normally call them tape number. All we do is see one, two, three, four, five, six. So we go to the tape library and pick the tape and mount. That’s all they need us to do. BRODY: Right. So you didn’t need a lot of English? TRAN: Yeah, no need a lot of English. BRODY: Great. So did you enjoy that job? TRAN: Well, we so happy. We—I know that the job is at the entry level, but at least it give us an opportunity to go back to school and learn the new skills and learn English. And also, at least it give us something to move on with our lives. BRODY: Absolutely. |00:18:05| TRAN: And if you go back, about 1975 and, if I remember correctly, there’s somewhere around when they do the—maybe about 30, 36 percent of the Americans that in favor with the Vietnam immigration. BRODY: Right, so not a lot of— TRAN: Because at the time, the war is over, so they don’t feel very good about the war. So only 30 percent of the Americans favor it. But as we said, as I said, we just wanted to move on with our life. So we got the job, whatever job they give to us, and we tried to work very hard. We go back to the school, learn English, and learn the new skills so that we can live, so that we can become the independent in our life. |00:19:24| Tran describes his first job in the United States working as a computer operator. employment ; English ; Hunt Oil Company ; jobs ; Sun Oil Company 1166 Going back to school So I remember I—in August the third, I got the job as computer operator. |00:14:05| BRODY: Where were you working? TRAN: I start to work as—at the—for the Sun Oil Company. At that time, Sun Oil BRODY: Right. Tell me about going back to school. Where did you go back to school? TRAN: I—(unintelligible) and you know, as I go back with little bit but here, it’s only 36 percent of the Americans favor Vietnamese immigration. But after a while, the local people in Dallas were—through the newspaper and everything they published about our new groups, how we—and people started to like us more and more. They’re more friendly with us. And I think that’s because we started to work—we just work, we work hard, and we go back to school and study the new skill and ______ so that we move on with our life. In my case, I went back to the El Centro [College] first to learn English. BRODY: Right, to a community college. TRAN: Yeah, in community college. And then I go back to the UTD [University of Texas–Dallas] to study information systems, or the course, information system. Because I graduate in Vietnam with a BS degree, and I spend a couple more years in the oceanography institute to study about marine biology. But I came over here, I couldn’t find a job, so I work as a computer operator. So I had to start—at the time, we have to take whatever they offer us, and then we improve our skill by going back to school. So I have to learn data processing, information systems. BRODY: So that’s a big change from marine biology, but— TRAN: Yeah. It took me five years, and I became the programmer analyst in 1980. BRODY: Great. TRAN: Yeah, and 1990 I become the database administrator, and then until I retired in 2016. BRODY: Well, congratulations on your retirement. |00:21:42| TRAN: Yeah. So not only for the job but for us, the education is—we really emphasize on the education, it’s important for us. If we want to have a good future, we have to go back to the school. And that how in Vietnam, that how it’s going in Vietnam, and over here, the same thing. We came over here, we really pushed the kid through the school system. BRODY: Yes, and yourselves as well, it sounds like. TRAN: Yeah. And the school over here, I think it’s—I used to tell my children that okay, in Vietnam, it’s fairly difficult to go through successfully in the school. I think about 4 or 5 percent of these student can graduate from the school back—I’m talking about before 1975. But even when you graduate from the school, I don’t think the student know much as the student over here. Over here they learn more, they have more knowledge than us in Vietnam. But the reason because it’s fairly difficult in Vietnam because there is no regulations, no rules, no guidelines in school as we do over here. So we relied much on the teachers favor or tolerance, okay? Like for instance, if I got sick on the exam day, no makeup. I fail. That’s it. As over here, it’s different. It’s more tolerant. So we get over here, when we go back to school, we feel fairly easy. People want—I mean the teacher, professors, instructors just want us to pass the course. They don’t intend to give a problem, to create the obstacles for us. BRODY: So you worked hard and were able to succeed. TRAN: Yeah. So if you work hard, you have opportunities. Tran recalls his return to collage in the United States in order to gain new skills to have a better opportunity for better jobs. community college ; education ; El Centro Community College ; refugees ; University of Texas at Dallas ; UTD 1456 Sponsored Stay at the University of Plano BRODY: So, you mentioned earlier that when you first came, the University of Plano housed you for that transition period, and you mentioned—did you stay on campus? TRAN: Yeah, we are living in the campus, and a lot of volunteer— BRODY: Where was that campus? Do you remember where that campus was? TRAN: The campus is in northwest Dallas, I think—it’s—(turning pages) it’s in northwest Dallas, it’s somewhere around on the—I believe that is somewhere around in the farm road, they call Farm Road 544. BRODY: Okay. So, sort of in Plano? TRAN: Yeah, in Plano, and yeah, it’s close to—yeah, in Plano. Yeah. BRODY: Okay, so they sponsored you and you lived on their campus. What were the accommodations like during that time? Was it a dorm or— TRAN: It’s in the dorm, and then the people start to donate food, and the volunteers throughout the Richardson, Plano, they got in and tried to teach us English. BRODY: Okay. So were those volunteers from church groups or a city? TRAN: From a church group, and from—yeah, normally from the church group. BRODY: From the church group. So they taught you English and donated things? |00:25:54| TRAN: Yeah, and donate, all that. But talking about, why is it different, that societies are so different? I remember one days in our group—we had about three or four people—one American lady, one volunteer, she drove us around the city—I think it was for—I forgot the reason why, but we got in her car and she drove us somewhere. And at the stop sign the streets are completely quiet and no people around there, at the stop sign, she stops. That’s a rule, okay? But one of—(laughs) a man behind me is like, “Why don’t you go, why do you have to stop? Nobody over here.” (Brody laughs) So she turns around and she says, “You crazy.” (laughs) BRODY: That’s funny. So she was following the rules— TRAN: Yeah, she’s following the rules and the man, he doesn’t think that there’s a rule that we need to stop. BRODY: Right. So how would that have been in Vietnam? Is that— TRAN: In Vietnam, back through the old days, we don’t follow very—the rules very strictly, yeah. Tran explains the living conditions and accommodations of living on the University of Plano's campus. Including additional support from a church group. church ; cultural differences ; Dallas ; Plano ; Texas ; University of Plano ; volunteers 1638 Adjusting to American Culture and Cultural Misunderstandings BRODY: Cartoons? (laughs) |00:28:20| TRAN: I really like that, cartoons, even I was twenty-six years old, but I still like the cartoons. (Brody laughs) So I asked one of my—one of the coworkers, “Do you like to watch toon-car?” He doesn’t know what I mean a “toon-car.” But I mean, in English, we call it cartoon, but in Vietnamese language, sometimes kind of reversed ; like a blue horse, we call here—we translate into Vietnam, call it horse blue. BRODY: Okay, so it reverses. TRAN: So that language is fairly difficult for us. BRODY: Of course. TRAN: Yeah, so—and the culture also creates some misunderstanding or confusion also. It’s like, in Vietnam, if you want to hire your employee to work on in some special cases, time, like a weekend or something like that, normally they think that, okay, we ask the employees, “I would like you to work tomorrow, I request you” or “I would like you to work tomorrow.” Over here people are simple. Our coworkers just simply say, “Hey, you want overtime tomorrow?” We translate, we interpret that as the way they look down on us. Brody: Oh. TRAN: So it’s a different. It’s different. BRODY: Yeah, so that’s different. |00:30:02| TRAN: Okay, so in Vietnam, normally a manager or supervisor sit on the chair, call the employee in, and normally they talk it’s like really, you know, official ways. But over here, the supervisor, their legs, their feet on the table and talk. But we interpret as the way they look down on us. So it’s some kind of— BRODY: Oh, so it’s about respect kind of feeling? TRAN: Yeah, about respect. So it’s—the culture sometimes creates that very— BRODY: Yeah, some misunderstandings. TRAN: —kind of misunderstanding each other, yeah. BRODY: Do you remember any times where a misunderstanding caused trouble for you personally? |00:30:59| TRAN: No, I don’t think, but my—this is not relating to the refugees, Vietnamese refugees in Dallas, but I remember in my wife’s side, we have my wife’s uncle. He escaped from Vietnam and the way the—an officer over there, an Asian, I think an Asian, spoke to him and with the—with his foot on the table, on the dash, and my wife’s uncle interpret that look down at us, okay? So he get mad. So he didn’t want to go to the United States. Instead he end up going to the French. BRODY: He went to France. (laughs) TRAN: —with the French, and now he still staying in the French. BRODY: Really? Wow. TRAN: Because when he was living in the refugee camp, he has three sisters in the US. So he actually can request—can ask to get over here, yeah. BRODY: But instead he chose to go to France. TRAN: Yeah, so, you know, that sometime for us over here, we think that that’s a normal way to deal with the people. But in the different countries, they interpret it a different way. BRODY: They interpret it differently, that’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing that story. Tran explains the cultural differences he noticed after moving to the United States specifically in language, and he recalls the misunderstandings that the cultural differences caused. cartoons ; cultural differences ; English ; language differences ; misunderstandings ; refugees ; respect 1960 Sponsored Housing from St. Pius X So when the school year started for the University of Plano, you had to move off of campus. How did you— |00:32:48| TRAN: Yeah. We—I found a job in August the third, and one week later—no, no, I think—one week before that, one week before that we got sponsored by the St. Pius X. BRODY: Oh, St. Pius X, yes. TRAN: And we move out of the St. Pius X—we move out of the campus to this. And the St. Pius X—the pastor at the time was Monsignor Weinzapfel, he rent a three-bedroom house, and so he—nearby the church. BRODY: Near the church? TRAN: Near the church, and then— BRODY: East Dallas? TRAN: Yeah, in Dallas. And we moved to there. We have ten people living in a threebedroom house with only one bathroom. One bathroom. BRODY: Wow, so that’s pretty crowded. TRAN: Yeah, very crowded, especially very difficult in the morning. BRODY: Absolutely. TRAN: Kids need to go to school, and sometimes we need to go to work, and so fairly difficult. But we happy. I think Monsignor Weinzapfel and the president of the Men’s Club at the time, Mr. Harmon, they very helpful. They visit us very frequent and to make sure that we have all what we need. We really appreciate the St. Pius X, that they open their church for us to use. We—our Vietnamese Catholic group was—at that time, Father Peter Phan, he’s the chaplain, and he used—every Sunday we celebrate Mass, we say the Mass at the St. Pius X. BRODY: Right, they gave you the space. |00:35:24| TRAN: They use—we use the St. Pius X facility until 1996 when we bought our own church. So they are very generous to us. BRODY: Very generous. Was Father Peter a refugee as well? TRAN: Yes, Father Peter Phan is—I believe that Dallas Morning News or Dallas Times Herald, there is an article about him, long time ago and I forgot. Father Peter Phan, when we were living in the campus at the University of Plano, the Plano city has summer work, the program for us. And all the Vietnamese refugees who want to go to work for the city of Plano, it’s divided into two group—because Father Peter Phan, he speak English very well, he’s a professor now at Georgetown—and he’s a head of one group. And my brother is the head of another group. Every morning the bus stopped by and picked them up, picked people up and put out on the street, especially on the highway to collect the trash around the city. BRODY: Okay, so cleaning up the highway. TRAN: Yeah, clean up on the highway, you know, the trash. And Father Peter Phan, he’s our chaplain from 1975 to 1978, so he have to go to Rome to present his PhD. BRODY: In Rome? TRAN: Yeah, in Rome. He teaches in Rome, and he went back and he become the professor, then teaching UD [University of Dallas] for a while and go to Washington, and now he’s a professor. And when he got the second degree, second PhD degree in philosophy or something like that, and I think there was an article in Dallas Morning News or Dallas Time Herald, I forgot. And they said a guy who collect the trash now have two PhD degrees. BRODY: Wow, that’s amazing, that’s amazing. |00:38:02| Tran describes the housing and help provided by their new sponsor St. Pius X and he recalls his experiences with Father Peter Phan. Catholic Church ; church ; Father Peter Phan ; housing ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; St. Pius X 2284 Building the Vietnamese Community in Texas TRAN: Yeah. But anyway, St. Pius X, go back, and St. Pius X is our spiritual foundation. So we really up to shape. Without them helping us, without Monsignor Weinzapfel as a pastor of St. Pius X support us, without Dallas Diocese support us, I don’t know how we are looking—how we look as a community, a Vietnamese community, today. With the support from them, I think, in 1993 we split into three different Vietnamese Catholic church. One is St. Peter in Dallas, and Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, and St. Joseph in Carrollton. Especially Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, right now we have 1,800 families. BRODY: Wow, that’s huge. TRAN: So we’re talking about somewhere around eight thousand people. BRODY: So the community has really grown. TRAN: Yeah. I think, but we start at the St. Pius X. Tran explains the growth of the Vietnamese community starting from St. Pius X. Dallas Diocese ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; Mother of Perpetual Vietnamese Catholic Church ; refugees ; St. Joseph's Vietnamese Catholic Church ; St. Peter Vietnamese Catholic Church ; St. Pius X 2370 Support from Monsignor Weinzapfel BRODY: Yeah. Let me go back to that time. So at St. Pius X, Monsignor Weinzapfel, what kind of man was he and why was he so supportive, do you think, of the Vietnamese refugees? What was he like? |00:39:44| TRAN: I think—he’s originated from German, so his parents living in the rural area somewhere south of Dallas. So I believe that he really particularly have sympathy with the refugees, not only the Vietnamese but many people also. I think he sponsored many foreigners, including one of the Indians priests—at the time I was living over there he still a priest but later on he become a bishop. Monsignor Weinzapfel, he’s very good, he’s—and for the Vietnamese, he’s—I mean, he’s ready to help us. I remember once—he tried to do everything to make our life as easy—as smooth—as easy as possible—and I remember one time, my mother, of course, she couldn’t speak English, she came over here, she has no formal education. Monsignor Weinzapfel said, “Well, you can do confession with me. You just speak Vietnamese, and I speak English for the— BRODY: Confession? TRAN: Yeah, “for the confession. God will understand, don’t worry about that.” BRODY: That’s wonderful. TRAN: So he’s very easygoing. And I, at first, I tell you—I might misunderstand him, the way he treat us. Well, when he just sponsored us and we just arrived at the St. Pius X, living in that three-bedroom house. And he told a guy to stop by and show me how to drive the motorcycle, and he want to buy the motorcycle so that I can drive back and forth to work. And you know that from the St. Pius X, go to Stemmons, maybe about thirty minute, forty minute of driving on the highway. How can I drive the motorcycle? BRODY: (laughs) So that was his idea? TRAN: Yeah. I think that’s not good idea, so why you treat us that way? But, I mean, just only a little bit confusing the first time. So later on, when I understand him, he’s the guy who can go out and do the sport or fly airplane and everything. So to him— BRODY: That’s not a big deal. TRAN: —that’s not a big deal to him. And I keep good relationship with him until he die in 2016. I used to visit him, and I believe I don’t surprise when in 2016 when he pass away, the Dallas Morning News announced that the iconic priest just passed away. BRODY: Right, so he was recognized— TRAN: So everybody respect him. |00:43:39| BRODY: —in the community. So you’ve talked about your Catholic faith and that that was really important. TRAN: Yeah. It’s very important to us. Tran talks about his relationship with Monsignor Weinzapfel and the support he provided to the community. Catholic Church ; Catholicism ; faith ; kindness ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; motorcycle ; refugees ; religion ; St. Pius X 2630 Mass at St. Pius X BRODY: Can you tell—take me back to those four o’clock masses that you had at the— that you were celebrating at St. Pius X. What was the environment, what did it feel like, what do you remember that experience every week being like? TRAN: Yeah, the—we really valued the Mass at four o’clock at St. Pius, especially the first several years. The Vietnamese Catholics from everywhere around the Dallas— sometimes Carollton, sometimes somewhere—they always tried to go to the four o’clock Mass. And some of the time when we go to four o’clock Mass—because I was living very close to the church so they stop by and visit or talk maybe at least about an hour before they go to the church. We, at the time, the St. Pius X and the Mass is a very good opportunity for us to meet each another. BRODY: To connect? TRAN: After a week of working—yeah, to keep connecting. So secondly, the four o’clock Mass always celebrate in Vietnamese, and that will help us a lot. Most of our people, we just don’t understand very well English, English very well. So we could go to the English Mass sometime—we don’t get lost throughout the Mass, but at the sermons we just don’t understand. BRODY: Was there a Vietnamese choir? TRAN: Yeah, there’s a Vietnamese choir. The funny thing is for Vietnamese, wherever they—the Vietnamese Catholic, whatever church, they always have a big choir or multiple choirs. You can imagine the Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, they have four or five choirs. BRODY: Wow. TRAN: Each Mass, they have a different choir. And in St. Pius X at the time, the choir is maybe twenty, thirty people easily. BRODY: Were you in the choir? TRAN: I’m not in the choir. (Brody laughs) I don’t sing very well. (Brody laughs) But the Monsignor Weinzapfel, he’s very surprised, he said, “Wow, the Vietnamese love to sing.” BRODY: Love to sing. TRAN: Yeah. And I think that at one time the Vietnamese choir even go to cathedral or some place to sing also. BRODY: Do they sing in Vietnamese? TRAN: In Vietnamese, yeah. And that is—and secondly, at the same parish we have the Monsignor Weinzapfel allow us to use some classroom so that we can teach the Vietnamese. BRODY: Language class? TRAN: Wherever we go, we always try to teach the kid Vietnamese. And I believe—I think that at the time I was a teacher, I tried to teach kid the Vietnamese also. |00:47:13| Tran descries his experiences at the four o'clock Mass and its importance to the Vietnamese community in Dallas. Catholic Church ; Catholic mass ; choir ; community ; language ; language learning ; Mass ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; St, Pius X ; Vietnamese choir ; Vietnamese language 2834 Maintaining the Vietnamese Culture BRODY: Well, on that subject of language, why was it important to the Vietnamese community to keep teaching the children Vietnamese? TRAN: Yeah, first of all, so that we can—we hope when the kids grow up they be able to read Vietnamese. If they can read the Vietnamese they understand us more, they understand the Vietnamese culture, custom, more, okay? Then also to us, we still have Vietnam, okay? So we think that with teaching our Vietnamese, our kids Vietnamese, one day they can communicate—for the reason of communication. And it turned out that I— here is my philosophy about the Vietnamese language: I think when the kid go back to— even they born over here, we’d rather teach them the Vietnamese because when they go to the school they speak English anyway. So for them, the English is still the primary language. And it turn out that, like, my daughter, we always speak—my children also, especially right now my daughter is a good example—they speak Vietnamese, they can read the Vietnamese. So my daughter right now, she’s a medical doctor, she’s a doctor. So she practice in Wylie. After two year, year or two, right now more and more of her clients are Vietnamese. BRODY: Oh, I see, serving the community. TRAN: Yeah, in Vietnamese, she helps answer. So even the practice, mainly owned by the American couple, but they have more clients. BRODY: That are Vietnamese. That’s interesting. TRAN: They start to go to see my daughter. Even right now she has the limit, the upper limit is two thousand patient. That’s the max, because each day one doctor should take about twenty, twenty-five patient. But lately, some Vietnamese ask her so she have to go back and ask the managers if she can receive more patient or not. And now my daughters and my children, they enjoy the Vietnamese music. The culture is the—that they have an opportunity to learn the culture. BRODY: Yeah, that’s interesting. So— TRAN: And to me, then you’ll—not only Vietnamese. If I know something in some other language, I would like to teach my kids because the more languages you know, the better off you are. |00:50:39| BRODY: Sure. Absolutely. It helps, it’s an asset, it sounds like, for your daughter. Tran explains his reasoning for teaching his children Vietnamese and its benefits in the community as well as carrying on the Vietnamese culture. children ; culture ; customs ; English ; language ; Vietnamese language 3047 Self Identity Well, thinking also about that, knowing the language, knowing English, knowing Vietnamese, how do you think of yourself in terms of—are you American, are you Vietnamese American, are you Vietnamese? How do you think of your own identity? TRAN: Oh. My—you know that—here’s the thing—I still believe that even—I still believe that I am a Vietnamese, yeah. Let’s put it this way: I read English more than I read in Vietnamese. Everything I read, most of the stuff I read is English. But when I pray, I pray in Vietnamese. BRODY: I see. TRAN: Because that is from the deepest level, it’s my— BRODY: Your soul. TRAN: It’s from my soul, my heart. So if you born as an American, you can speak French, you can speak German, you can speak anything, but whenever you hear—to go deep into your soul, you’re still thinking in English. Yeah, that’s in—yeah. |00:52:16| Tran describes how he sees himself and his own identity. American identity ; English ; faith ; identity ; language ; Vietnamese ; Vietnamese Americans 3137 Contributing to the Community BRODY: That’s an interesting perspective. So you’re still very religious and involved in the church still? TRAN: Now I’m retired, I’m not involved anymore, but I go to the church regularly and practice the faith. |00:52:37| BRODY: During those times, the Vietnamese communities that you said came together before and during that four o’clock Mass, were there other cultural things that you did or celebrations that were particular to the Vietnamese community in the St. Pius church? TRAN: At hindsight, the Mass and the Vietnamese class, that class, and that’s what my focus on the teaching Vietnamese. So my brother, he’s very active in the communities also. But I work in a different area. Like, I have contributed to the Vietnamese magazines, but not for the Catholic, for everybody. Yeah, something like that. BRODY: What kind of articles were you contributing? TRAN: Normally we go back with the—I specialize in Vietnamese poetry. BRODY: Poetry? TRAN: Yeah, most of my focus on—at the time, we didn’t have much books in Vietnamese. We left the country with empty hands. We didn’t have anything. Normally we relied on our memories. BRODY: To remember the stories. TRAN: Yeah, remember a story here and there and try to put together some magazine, and contribute and share with the people. BRODY: Yeah, that’s true, you did— TRAN: And my brother, he’s involved very much, in very deep in the Catholic communities. You might want to interview him, ask him, yeah. |00:54:52| BRODY: Yeah, I think I would love to. Tran discusses his involvement with the church and his contribution of poetry to the community. culture ; memory ; poetry ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese language 3293 Experiences as a Vietnamese Student When you were in El Centro Community College and UT–Dallas studying, what was it like to be a student and a newly arrived Vietnamese refugee at that time? TRAN: Yeah, that’s what I—first of all, when I go to the school, it’s fairly difficult for me to understand what teacher—because, yeah, he’s supposed to try to teach me. But secondly, I feel that over here instructors or the teacher, they want us to be success. And when I went to El Centro or UTD, I’m very good at the science and technology course. But in the liberal courses I’m not very good, because I couldn’t read English very well at the time. But over here the—I have to believe that the—we have very good education systems. Yeah, good education system. And the oriental people, when they came over here, we, as I said, we really emphasize about the education. So many of us, they make some progress, success. |00:56:30| BRODY: Did you interact very much with American students of different—other races? TRAN: Not very much, but we don’t isolate ourselves. We try to— BRODY: Try to interact. TRAN: Yeah, interact with them. BRODY: What were the main barriers to— TRAN: It’s still—the main barrier is still the language and the culture. So the reason we don’t interact very much is because, as I said, the culture is—even I’m living here more than forty years, okay? There’s some time I want to say something and I have to be aware about that because something we don’t think that is serious, but to the other people—like, for instance, to American, we say something, they think that it’s not good. BRODY: So it’s back to the misunderstanding. TRAN: Yeah, it’s not good. So creating more confusion. So I have—I mean, working for forty-one years, but in the last few years, I have the meeting all the time with people, with employee, but when I say something I make sure to say something that is very clear. So (laughs)— BRODY: Yeah, you don’t want any misunderstandings. TRAN: Yeah. |00:58:07| Tran explains his experience as a newly arrived immigrant student including his struggles and interactions with other students. community college ; culture ; education ; El Centro Community College ; English language ; friendships ; langauge ; misunderstandings ; professors ; school ; teachers 3484 Interaction with different races ...don’t know why, but when we came over here, people really were friendly to us. Like the folks—when we started to work for Sun Oil, about a month or so, this guy, his name is Bill Boucher, he specialized in the history. His major is history. But he was a marine, and he came to my country. And he said when he come back over here, he think about the Vietnam War and he cried so often and drink—get drunk all the time. So when he met us he talk to us and treat us very friendly, and he give us the—when me and my brother, after a while working together and then they split into the different shifts, so we need one more car. So he in the process of divorce his wife, but he still thinking very well— thinking about us very much. So he give us his car, his Volkswagen. BRODY: Wow. That’s generous. TRAN: So I don’t—if the people treat me that way, how can they say—yeah. And then I know another guy, he’s a black. He’s big—I forgot his name—he’s really big. And I’m a small guy, so at the time we monitor the tape drive, every night we pull all the tape that we don’t use anymore, then we clean it up, we call it the scratch tape. And my arm is just about four or five tapes, that’s big enough—that’s enough. But for him, ten or fifteen. (Brody laughs) He always help me to— BRODY: To carry. TRAN: Yeah, to carry all the tape. He’s really—I met many people that they treat us very well. And I met a guy when we’re still living in campus at the University of Plano, there was a salesman. He sells the compressor. So one day stopped by the campus and took me and my brother to his home for meals. BRODY: Oh, that’s nice. |01:00:58| TRAN: And then he give us $100. And he told us one thing: “I don’t require you to do anything for me, but if some day you have opportunity, you need to help other people.” And I have an experience when I was working at the Sun Oil as a data controller—that’s the next level from the computer operator. The next level is programmer analyst. There was a manager, she was a pilot, World War II pilot. And somehow, she really liked me and she fought with the other managers. “Oh, I like Bac,” she didn’t care when she get mad, she spoke loudly. She want me to—she want to move me up to the—to give me— BRODY: The promotion. TRAN: —to give me that position, yeah. And finally she got the position for me. BRODY: That’s great. TRAN: So, I mean, not only that, but many other examples. I only _______ about the good people. So that’s why I think including Monsignor Weinzapfel. So I think I met so many, many Good Samaritans. So I don’t know, I don’t have much experience about the discrimination. BRODY: Right. Well that’s good. TRAN: Yeah. Including not only the white, but the black, and everybody treat me real nice. And so I—the first Christmas, the people in the data centers of the Sun Oil company, they put together, give and donate a lot of food, a lot of stuff, and they give to my brother and me. But we stack up one Volkswagen, full of one Volkswagen. BRODY: Wow, you got full of donations. TRAN: Yeah. So I—all I have—of course I have some bad experience, but not very much, but that not because American or non-American, that’s a human being. Wherever you go on the world, you still run into the good people and the bad people, all the time. So I don’t regard as the discrimination. |01:03:50| BRODY: I understand, that’s great. Tran describes experiences of hospitality he encountered upon his immigration to the United States. car ; Christmas ; discrimination ; kindness ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; Vietnam veterans ; Vietnam War ; Volswagen 3832 Housing Process After St. Pius X So in terms of after—initially you guys were all living in the house near St. Pius X. How did the process go, did you stay there for a long time? TRAN: We stayed there about a couple years. But, I mean, that first month Monsignor Weinzapfel, he got money from USCC, okay? So he paid the rent for us. BRODY: From Catholic Charities [USA]? TRAN: Yeah, Charities. Paid the rent for us. I think at that time fairly cheap rent, may not be very expensive, but he paid the rent for us until the fund was out. We have ten people, so they assigned for us about $3,000. So he paid until they ran out, so he assumed the financial responsibility. So we’re there, stay about two years, then we bought another house, bigger house, but nearby in the same zip code. BRODY: Did the whole family stay together? TRAN: Yeah, the whole family stay together. That’s our custom, we stay together until my sister got married, so she move out. Until I marry, move out, and then until—yeah. Everybody, we stay that way. Because we stay together so we save a lot of money, and that’s why we can afford the house. I don’t know the next wave of immigration, but the very first wave of immigration, we always want to live independently. And that’s why it surprise a lot to the local peoples in our areas. We don’t demand and we have a very minimal needs for our life. One funny thing is—or funny story is when they took us from Guam island, they flew to the US and they had to stop the airplane, had to stop at Hawaii airport for a few hours. My mother, at the time, she was about fifty-three years old. But when she stay at night, she stay in that airport, she lay down on the carpet on the floor. She said, “I can stay over here. I feel comfortable enough.” (Brody laughs) We don’t have a lot of demand when we came over here. We’re living together until we got marriage than we move out. Like I said, me, I got marriage in 1982, move out. |01:06:44| Tran discusses living conditions of their house after moving out of church provided housing. customs ; extended family ; family ; housing ; marriage ; Monsignor Weinzapfel ; St. Pius X 4004 Building a Family in the United States BRODY: How did you meet your wife? TRAN: I meet my wife at—my wife is actually—my friend actually working together with my wife in the Wichita, Kansas. They work in an airplane manufacturer. He got wedding, in his wedding, I attend his wedding party and I met my wife over there and so from there we make friend and we know each other and then— BRODY: Get married. That’s a nice story. |01:07:26| TRAN: We got marriage, and—as I go back, as I said, I really—we really emphasize on the education. Not only for ourselves, but for our children also, and that’s why we can sacrifice heavily, sacrifice everything for the education of the kids. And like—I send all my kids—I have two sons and two daughters—send them to Baylor. BRODY: They all went to Baylor? TRAN: The first one, my son, at the time in 2001, 2002, he started to go to the Baylor. It’s about $18,000 a year for room and board. And my youngest daughters started to go the Baylor in 2011. It’s about $50,000 a year. BRODY: Wow, that’s a dramatic— TRAN: Yeah. We sacrifice everything for the kids. So sometime some people in my company at the time—I was working with Hunt Oil. He said, “Bac Tran, he just helped the Baylor to build a building.” BRODY: (laughs) They should name a building after you. TRAN: (laughs) Yeah. They don’t realize that we really sacrifice for the education, and that’s why you can see many kids are very successful right now. That tradition is rooted in the Vietnamese culture. It’s a long time, and still going on right now, not only abroad but in Vietnam also. I normally go onto YouTube and watch some shows, you know, that some Vietnamese parents, they are farmers, they are fishermen, they have nothing, but they sacrifice everything for their daughter or for their son so that they can move up to become the actress, to become the singer or everything. They can spend almost most of their fortunes. BRODY: Right, so that the family and education— TRAN: Yeah, family, education. That’s the culture. It’s different from here also. Over here, they sacrifice for the kids, but not to that level. They have to save for themselves also, okay. It’s a different cultures. I’m not saying that who is better, but it’s just a different cultures. |01:10:33| Tran discusses how he started and raised a family in the United States, and the sacrifices he had to make. Baylor University ; children ; education ; Kansas ; Marriage ; values ; Vietnamese culture 4234 Future of the Vietnamese Culture in the United States BRODY: So tell me about the Vietnamese community here. Do you see that same culture transitioning and staying solid here in Texas, here in the United States? Those same traditions and values, are they being passed down and carried on in the younger generations? TRAN: The younger generation, of course, they’re more Americanized, and that’s why you have to believe in the education. Like, my children, we only speak in Vietnamese, and sometimes even right now I send them a Snapchat just, like, this morning with the text written in Vietnamese. They understand, but they feel more comfortable speaking English with each another. Even Yen is my niece, she feels more comfortable with the English, okay? Not only language but I think the culture or the way of thinking, lifestyle, learning, probably they feel more comfortable. And the change—we have to accept the changes. We cannot stop the changes, that’s the realities. And that’s why the Chinese, they very wise, they have a book written six thousand years ago, we call the Book of Changes. If you don’t change, we have to live and if we want to live, we want to survive, we have to change. But we have to keep our roots, and that’s why I want my children know how to speak Vietnamese, know how to enjoy the Vietnamese food, other Vietnamese cultures, yeah. But we have to change. BRODY: Yeah. How, in your family, have you cooked together, taught your children how to cook Vietnamese food? What role have those kind of traditions played in your family? TRAN: Yeah, my wife is very good about that. But my children, they know how to make some Vietnamese dishes but not as my wife expect. She’s a very good chef. |01:13:32| Tran explains what he believes to be the future of the Vietnamese culture in Dallas, and its inevitable changes. American identity ; Book of Changes ; cooking ; culture ; Englsh language ; food ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese language 4411 State of the Vietnamese community in Dallas today BRODY: Yes, that’s a good compliment. Are you very involved in the larger Vietnamese community in Dallas? TRAN: Not at this time— BRODY: Not right now? TRAN: Yeah, not right now. BRODY: What is your impression of that community? Is it a unified community, or are there a lot of differences, or is it just very big? TRAN: It’s—we still connect to each anothers, but it’s not solid, not cohesive like in the past. In the past we always find the opportunity to meet each another, but right now, we—yeah. BRODY: Why do you think that is? TRAN: That’s what I’m saying, it’s just change. Everything is changing, even in Vietnam. You know that we have a custom in the New Year, okay, we spend fifteen days to celebrate New Year, big festival. We go out and meet and visit each another. But now, in these—over here, we don’t do that anymore, but in Vietnam, they start to abandon that custom also. BRODY: Really? TRAN: Yeah. And things—I mean, in Vietnam we have the—back to the old days, very strictly, we don’t live together before we got marriage. We carry out that custom to over here, but now people over here, the young people, they don’t care about that. But we don’t criticize them because in Vietnam they’re doing the same thing. BRODY: Right, the same pattern. TRAN: Yeah, the same pattern. It’s everywhere in the world. BRODY: Just modern life. TRAN: Modern life. People used to blame on the—online or the communication here that is spreading. Sometime I think about that also, but I think back to the old days. Why— back to the old day, the science and technology was not very advanced, we don’t have that mass communication. Why, back to the old day, in the fifth century BC we start to have some kind of religious leaders, started to go out, you see the movement, like Buddha. And then you go back to the China, you will see the Confucius. It’s the same. They don’t communicate together, but that like, go—when the human being go through that point of the history, they start to see the similar things. The philosophy started to change. So I know it’s—everything is change. But if we can keep our roots, maybe better. |01:17:05| Tran contrasts the modern Vietnamese community to the past community. celebrations ; culture ; Dallas ; New Years ; Vietnamese community 4624 Involvement in Politics BRODY: Yeah, the roots. Are you involved in politics in either—or keep up with politics in either the United States or Vietnam? Are you interested in— TRAN: I’m interested in current events, but I mean—political events. I’ve been reading, but I don’t involve into it, because I—like, tomorrow, we go out and vote. I identify by myself as an independent voter. I don’t want to belong to either, but I just vote on the issues it depend on. BRODY: In what way do you think your life experiences—both before you came here, your refugee experience and then your life here as an American—inform your view on different—you know, in politics? TRAN: We left Vietnam, we are the first group of people who—first, 130,000 people who left Vietnam. Most of us left Vietnam for the political reason. So we don’t come over here for financial or economic reasons, because we didn’t accept the communists. As I said, I was originally from north of Vietnam. So all my father took us from north of Vietnam to south of Vietnam in 1954 when I was five years old. And I am a Catholic with a root of anti-communist, and I still believe that communist is not good as of today, as of this moment ; I still don’t believe the communist is good. So we came over here with a political reason. And we think in the United States we have democracy—even right now, of course, in any society you still have a lot of issue, you still have a lot of things to be improved. But this country have a very good systems, if people is aware about that and try to improve upon that. But in these days I can sometime (unintelligible)—everything Democrats say, then the Republicans say, “Not good, no good.” And everything Republicans say, Democrats say, “No good.” And that’s why you go back to the Gospel, many times Jesus Christ perform the miracles to cure the deaf. I think if we don’t listen to each other I don’t know how can we improve our societies. BRODY: That’s a really good point. TRAN: But we still have a very good system. I still believe in that. And when you believe through the systems you can do better things for our societies. In the last ten years, I work as a database administrator for Hunt Oil. I never request to have merit. I don’t demand much, but my manager—he retired three years before me—he know that. I still got a very good merit ; I don’t demand it. So I truly believe that when we trust the system and we do the work, we do the best we can, we can improve the system. The political system over here is still good. I still trust that and that’s why I came over here. If we are living under the communist, it’s terrible. And many well-educated Vietnamese people that came over here, they started to criticize the south government back before 1975. They write book, they write article, but they didn’t realize that they build up their education, they got their degree, they move up in the society in south of Vietnam. They didn’t move up and they don’t get the degree from the north of Vietnam. So, I mean, it’s the same thing over here. If we believe to our system, we can improve it. |01:22:40| Tran gives his opinion on the political system in the United States and how it contrasts politics in Vietnam. American politics ; Catholicism ; Communism ; Culture ; democracy ; politics ; Poltiics ; refugees ; religion ; Roots ; Vietnamese politics 4960 Being American BRODY: Thank you. My last question for you is one that, I’m curious—to you, what does it mean to be an American? Whether it’s yourself or your kids or grandkids, when someone says “I’m American,” in a few words, what does that mean to you? TRAN: I’m proud to be an American. Even deep into my heart, I still thinking I’m a Vietnamese, but I’m proud to be an American. American stands for freedom, independence, and that’s what I’m looking for. BRODY: That’s great. Well, thank you very much. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you’d like to comment on? TRAN: I think you asked me all—yeah, I think that’s all I can contribute. (laughs) BRODY: Oh, thank you, it’s been wonderful to talk to you, and thank you very much for sharing your story. It’s been a pleasure, thank you for having this conversation. TRAN: Thank you. Tran explains what being American means to him. American ; American identity ; freedom Baylor University Institute for Oral History Bac Tran Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody November 5, 2018 Richardson, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is November 5, 2018. I&#039 ; m interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Bac Tran. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History, and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. All right, good morning, Mr. Tran. TRAN: Good morning. BRODY: I&#039 ; m so excited to talk to you today. Let&#039 ; s start out, just--if you could tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam. |00:00:27| TRAN: Yes. In Vietnam I was a high school teacher. I had been teaching the chemistry and biology. And then in April 1975 when the south of Vietnam was about to collapse and everybody was panicked, I was originated from the north. I was born as a Catholic and with anti-communists, so I had more reason to fear to live under the control of the communists. But it happened that my brother was working for US embassy at the time, and they allow every US embassy employee family to get out of the country, and I was a member of his family. That&#039 ; s why I came over here. BRODY: So because of your brother&#039 ; s connections and his work for the US embassy, his whole family--so how many members of the family were evacuated through that? TRAN: Yes, his family has four children, he and his wife. That&#039 ; s six, and my mother, my two sisters, and me. The sisters and me, we&#039 ; re all single, that&#039 ; s why we were regarded as a member of his family. BRODY: Okay, so he was responsible for all of you as well as your mother and his own family. So were you living in Saigon at that time? TRAN: I was in the Saigon at the time. Actually, I was a high school teacher in the central of Vietnam, and by the time the communists almost took over that area, so I escaped and ran to the south, and I get on the Vietnam navy ship, and they took us to the south of Vietnam and put us in a refugee camp in Phú Quốc. It&#039 ; s in the south of Vietnam. BRODY: Okay, so you came from central Vietnam, fleeing to south Vietnam and were in a refugee camp. TRAN: Yes, and then my brother went to Phú Quốc, went to that island, looked for me, and took me back to the capital of Vietnam. BRODY: Wow, what was that day like? Did you know he was coming for you? TRAN: No. That is in around April, April fifteenth. So we were living in Saigon for a couple of weeks, and then my brother is in charge for the evacuation of his employees out of the country. And so he stayed behind, but I and my--and his family and my sisters and my mother, we all got out of the country on April 25. BRODY: April 25, 1975. |00:04:08| TRAN: In 1975. And we arrived to the Philippines and stay in the US navy base for several days. And my brother left Saigon on April twenty-seventh, and he was pretty lucky, because on April twenty-eighth the Tan Son Nhut, the only airport in the capital, started to be under intense artillery bombardment. And we reunited with my brother at Guam island a few days after that. And then we were flown to US and stayed in Camp Pendleton, a marine base, for more than a month. Then through the USCC, a voluntary agency, we were sponsored by the University of Plano, now a defunct university, and we came to Dallas in July 1975. BRODY: Okay, so the first place that you went was Guam, or the Philippines, then-- TRAN: Philippines, then Guam. BRODY: Then Camp Pendleton. TRAN: Then Camp Pendleton, yeah. BRODY: And were you all together the whole time? TRAN: Yeah, we all together. We reunited with my brother in Guam. |00:05:39| BRODY: So tell me--I mean, how did you feel when you were in Guam and before he got there? What was the feeling in the family? TRAN: We was--when we came to the Philippines, staying in the navy base, I was so fearful because I don&#039 ; t know if my brother will be able to reunite with us or not, because he was still in Saigon. BRODY: Right. It must have been scary. TRAN: Yeah, it is very scary. But we have no choice. After staying there for a few days, then they start to fly us to the Guam. But it&#039 ; s just like a miracle. We were so tired and we slept in the camp in the tent, and then in the morning, I suddenly saw my brother walking in. He&#039 ; s looking for us also, he walk around and walk around, and then he saw us and he walk in the camp. BRODY: Were you so surprised? TRAN: Yeah, we so surprised and so happy. |00:06:56| BRODY: So happy. And how was it with having four small children with your group? Was that difficult? TRAN: It was difficult because at that time when we were still in the Subic Bay, the US navy base, the youngest one, my youngest nephew, he was sick. And at the time, if any kids got sick severely, they have to take the kid out from us and they take him, put him into the hospital. BRODY: So you were separated from-- TRAN: Yeah, and we were so scared, but fortunately my nephew got well after that-- BRODY: And they were able to reunite you. TRAN: --and recovered after that, so that--yeah, he was not separated from us. BRODY: Good, that&#039 ; s good. So Camp Pendleton, you were there for-- TRAN: Yeah, Camp Pendleton. We was there from May until June, more than a month, about a month and twenty days or something like that, because we were big family. And you know that in the US, the Americans only have smaller family, they cannot afford to sponsor that big family. BRODY: So during your time in Camp Pendleton you were working to try to find a sponsor for the whole family? TRAN: The Department of Immigration together with the voluntary agency they called the VolAgs [Voluntary Agency], it&#039 ; s nine voluntary agencies, including in that is USCC [United States Catholic Conference], for instance, and the HIAS [Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society] is a Jewish agency, et cetera. They work together and look for the sponsors. It&#039 ; s strange, and we&#039 ; re just like--suddenly we got into the United States, completely different environment for us, and-- |00:09:11| BRODY: What was the most different thing for you? TRAN: The most different thing is the culture. We want--like, in Vietnam, we normally want to live together as community. And when we go over here, even one Vietnamese priest, he&#039 ; s very well-educated, he graduated from German, he also--even that, he always ask us to pray so that we can stay together. Yeah, but over here, the--I think the--over here we really have the experience with the immigration, because through the course of history all the immigration from all over the world goes over here, so the department-- immigration departments and the voluntary agencies, they&#039 ; re very experienced about how to deal with the immigrants. So instead of put us together in one place, they distribute us throughout the country, okay. And that--secondly, when we come over here, the very first feeling that we have is: this is peaceful country. In our country is the war all the time. BRODY: It&#039 ; s very different. TRAN: Yeah, the thirty, forty years, yeah. So this country--when we first got into the airport and they ship us to the base, we look through and we see, &quot ; Huh, the society is very peaceful.&quot ; BRODY: Right. No conflict that you could see. TRAN: No conflict yeah, yeah, you can see it. |00:11:19| BRODY: So how did that make you feel? TRAN: Me feel--we don&#039 ; t--the first feeling we have is we really enjoy the environment, and people treat us very kindly. But also we just, as I said, we just kind of feel numb. We were not prepared to come over here. Yeah, we were not prepared. BRODY: You weren&#039 ; t planning, or it wasn&#039 ; t part of your plan. TRAN: Yeah. But we panic and we feel numb and we don&#039 ; t--it&#039 ; s just like we got--we don&#039 ; t have maps, something like that. We&#039 ; re disoriented. BRODY: Yeah, disoriented. TRAN: Yeah, completely. BRODY: And numb. But you wanted to have the one sponsor to take all of you, and that was challenging, but ultimately you found-- TRAN: Yeah, it was challenging and we keep waiting. Every day, we keep waiting, we&#039 ; re waiting, and finally they call us and let us know that we have a sponsor. But the sponsor we have over here is the University of Plano. They only sponsor for the transition time. |00:13:11| BRODY: Okay, so University of Plano transitioned your family for just the transition? TRAN: And then from there they will find out a permanent sponsor. We came to the--we are the first largest group who came to Dallas. BRODY: Right, your family. TRAN: Yeah, who came to Dallas. And we were living in Plano, but we must move out of the campus before the school year. BRODY: Oh I see, so this was happening in July? TRAN: The school year sometime by the August, and they start somewhere around by August, or something like that. So I remember I--in August the third, I got the job as computer operator. |00:14:05| BRODY: Where were you working? TRAN: I start to work as--at the--for the Sun Oil Company. At that time, Sun Oil Company, they move their data centers to Dallas from Philadelphia and Tulsa. So they build a huge big data center over at the Empire Central [Drive] and Stemmons [Freeway], in north Dallas. So they need the helpers, and my brother and I, we got the job. Talking about jobs is funny thing, is when we were living in the campus, there are a couple employees from the human resource, from the Department of Human Resource. They help us to look for the job. But you know, most of the Vietnamese refugees, we couldn&#039 ; t speak English or couldn&#039 ; t speak English very well. So it&#039 ; s fairly difficult to look for a job. BRODY: Yes. TRAN: I remember a man, his name is--I don&#039 ; t remember his full name, but his name was Mr. Vano. He always look for a job for us and we only end up with the $2.10 an hour, that&#039 ; s the minimum wage at the time. BRODY: So, minimum wage job. TRAN: And we jokingly call him as Mr. Two-Ten. (laughs) BRODY: Mr. Two-Ten. (laughs) That&#039 ; s really funny. TRAN: Mr. Two-Ten because--but he&#039 ; s very nice, he&#039 ; s very nice. He even invite us to his home sometimes. BRODY: So was he an American? TRAN: Yeah, he&#039 ; s an American. BRODY: And he was just interested in helping Vietnamese get jobs. TRAN: Yeah, look for us to get a job, yeah. But unfortunately we don&#039 ; t speak--we didn&#039 ; t speak English very well. We didn&#039 ; t have skills that the company needed, so we had him as Two-Ten, and (laughs) we call him as Mr. Two-Ten. |00:16:32| BRODY: (laughs) That&#039 ; s very funny. So that entry into the job market--you know, how did you get the job at Sun Oil Company? TRAN: Yeah, at Sun Oil--because at that time, as I said, the data center, the Sun Oil just build--Sun Oil just build their data center over the Stemmons in north Dallas. And they need some helpers with no previous experience required. BRODY: Oh, good. TRAN: Yeah. So all we do--even the name is as a computer operator--but we come over here, we got in and they have a huge room with all the tape drives. So the tape drive we would normally call them tape number. All we do is see one, two, three, four, five, six. So we go to the tape library and pick the tape and mount. That&#039 ; s all they need us to do. BRODY: Right. So you didn&#039 ; t need a lot of English? TRAN: Yeah, no need a lot of English. BRODY: Great. So did you enjoy that job? TRAN: Well, we so happy. We--I know that the job is at the entry level, but at least it give us an opportunity to go back to school and learn the new skills and learn English. And also, at least it give us something to move on with our lives. BRODY: Absolutely. |00:18:05| TRAN: And if you go back, about 1975 and, if I remember correctly, there&#039 ; s somewhere around when they do the--maybe about 30, 36 percent of the Americans that in favor with the Vietnam immigration. BRODY: Right, so not a lot of-- TRAN: Because at the time, the war is over, so they don&#039 ; t feel very good about the war. So only 30 percent of the Americans favor it. But as we said, as I said, we just wanted to move on with our life. So we got the job, whatever job they give to us, and we tried to work very hard. We go back to the school, learn English, and learn the new skills so that we can live, so that we can become the independent in our life. |00:19:24| BRODY: Right. Tell me about going back to school. Where did you go back to school? TRAN: I--(unintelligible) and you know, as I go back with little bit but here, it&#039 ; s only 36 percent of the Americans favor Vietnamese immigration. But after a while, the local people in Dallas were--through the newspaper and everything they published about our new groups, how we--and people started to like us more and more. They&#039 ; re more friendly with us. And I think that&#039 ; s because we started to work--we just work, we work hard, and we go back to school and study the new skill and so that we move on with our life. In my case, I went back to the El Centro [College] first to learn English. BRODY: Right, to a community college. TRAN: Yeah, in community college. And then I go back to the UTD [University of Texas--Dallas] to study information systems, or the course, information system. Because I graduate in Vietnam with a BS degree, and I spend a couple more years in the oceanography institute to study about marine biology. But I came over here, I couldn&#039 ; t find a job, so I work as a computer operator. So I had to start--at the time, we have to take whatever they offer us, and then we improve our skill by going back to school. So I have to learn data processing, information systems. BRODY: So that&#039 ; s a big change from marine biology, but-- TRAN: Yeah. It took me five years, and I became the programmer analyst in 1980. BRODY: Great. TRAN: Yeah, and 1990 I become the database administrator, and then until I retired in 2016. BRODY: Well, congratulations on your retirement. |00:21:42| TRAN: Yeah. So not only for the job but for us, the education is--we really emphasize on the education, it&#039 ; s important for us. If we want to have a good future, we have to go back to the school. And that how in Vietnam, that how it&#039 ; s going in Vietnam, and over here, the same thing. We came over here, we really pushed the kid through the school system. BRODY: Yes, and yourselves as well, it sounds like. TRAN: Yeah. And the school over here, I think it&#039 ; s--I used to tell my children that okay, in Vietnam, it&#039 ; s fairly difficult to go through successfully in the school. I think about 4 or 5 percent of these student can graduate from the school back--I&#039 ; m talking about before 1975. But even when you graduate from the school, I don&#039 ; t think the student know much as the student over here. Over here they learn more, they have more knowledge than us in Vietnam. But the reason because it&#039 ; s fairly difficult in Vietnam because there is no regulations, no rules, no guidelines in school as we do over here. So we relied much on the teachers favor or tolerance, okay? Like for instance, if I got sick on the exam day, no makeup. I fail. That&#039 ; s it. As over here, it&#039 ; s different. It&#039 ; s more tolerant. So we get over here, when we go back to school, we feel fairly easy. People want--I mean the teacher, professors, instructors just want us to pass the course. They don&#039 ; t intend to give a problem, to create the obstacles for us. BRODY: So you worked hard and were able to succeed. TRAN: Yeah. So if you work hard, you have opportunities. |00:24:17| BRODY: So, you mentioned earlier that when you first came, the University of Plano housed you for that transition period, and you mentioned--did you stay on campus? TRAN: Yeah, we are living in the campus, and a lot of volunteer-- BRODY: Where was that campus? Do you remember where that campus was? TRAN: The campus is in northwest Dallas, I think--it&#039 ; s--(turning pages) it&#039 ; s in northwest Dallas, it&#039 ; s somewhere around on the--I believe that is somewhere around in the farm road, they call Farm Road 544. BRODY: Okay. So, sort of in Plano? TRAN: Yeah, in Plano, and yeah, it&#039 ; s close to--yeah, in Plano. Yeah. BRODY: Okay, so they sponsored you and you lived on their campus. What were the accommodations like during that time? Was it a dorm or-- TRAN: It&#039 ; s in the dorm, and then the people start to donate food, and the volunteers throughout the Richardson, Plano, they got in and tried to teach us English. BRODY: Okay. So were those volunteers from church groups or a city? TRAN: From a church group, and from--yeah, normally from the church group. BRODY: From the church group. So they taught you English and donated things? |00:25:54| TRAN: Yeah, and donate, all that. But talking about, why is it different, that societies are so different? I remember one days in our group--we had about three or four people--one American lady, one volunteer, she drove us around the city--I think it was for--I forgot the reason why, but we got in her car and she drove us somewhere. And at the stop sign the streets are completely quiet and no people around there, at the stop sign, she stops. That&#039 ; s a rule, okay? But one of--(laughs) a man behind me is like, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you go, why do you have to stop? Nobody over here.&quot ; (Brody laughs) So she turns around and she says, &quot ; You crazy.&quot ; (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s funny. So she was following the rules-- TRAN: Yeah, she&#039 ; s following the rules and the man, he doesn&#039 ; t think that there&#039 ; s a rule that we need to stop. BRODY: Right. So how would that have been in Vietnam? Is that-- TRAN: In Vietnam, back through the old days, we don&#039 ; t follow very--the rules very strictly, yeah. BRODY: So, are there--that&#039 ; s interesting. So the following of rules was a cultural difference that you noticed right away. TRAN: Yeah, yeah. BRODY: Did that--I mean, that&#039 ; s traffic, but were there other examples that you observed of differences in the culture? TRAN: Not only the culture, but also in language. It&#039 ; s fairly difficult. So when we got over here, in my family only my brother and I could speak English a little bit, not much at the time. So we both go out to do the shopping, do the grocery. And then the--talking about the language, one night when I was still working as a computer operator--at the time I really liked to watch the show about the cartoons. BRODY: Cartoons? (laughs) |00:28:20| TRAN: I really like that, cartoons, even I was twenty-six years old, but I still like the cartoons. (Brody laughs) So I asked one of my--one of the coworkers, &quot ; Do you like to watch toon-car?&quot ; He doesn&#039 ; t know what I mean a &quot ; toon-car.&quot ; But I mean, in English, we call it cartoon, but in Vietnamese language, sometimes kind of reversed ; like a blue horse, we call here--we translate into Vietnam, call it horse blue. BRODY: Okay, so it reverses. TRAN: So that language is fairly difficult for us. BRODY: Of course. TRAN: Yeah, so--and the culture also creates some misunderstanding or confusion also. It&#039 ; s like, in Vietnam, if you want to hire your employee to work on in some special cases, time, like a weekend or something like that, normally they think that, okay, we ask the employees, &quot ; I would like you to work tomorrow, I request you&quot ; or &quot ; I would like you to work tomorrow.&quot ; Over here people are simple. Our coworkers just simply say, &quot ; Hey, you want overtime tomorrow?&quot ; We translate, we interpret that as the way they look down on us. Brody: Oh. TRAN: So it&#039 ; s a different. It&#039 ; s different. BRODY: Yeah, so that&#039 ; s different. |00:30:02| TRAN: Okay, so in Vietnam, normally a manager or supervisor sit on the chair, call the employee in, and normally they talk it&#039 ; s like really, you know, official ways. But over here, the supervisor, their legs, their feet on the table and talk. But we interpret as the way they look down on us. So it&#039 ; s some kind of-- BRODY: Oh, so it&#039 ; s about respect kind of feeling? TRAN: Yeah, about respect. So it&#039 ; s--the culture sometimes creates that very-- BRODY: Yeah, some misunderstandings. TRAN: --kind of misunderstanding each other, yeah. BRODY: Do you remember any times where a misunderstanding caused trouble for you personally? |00:30:59| TRAN: No, I don&#039 ; t think, but my--this is not relating to the refugees, Vietnamese refugees in Dallas, but I remember in my wife&#039 ; s side, we have my wife&#039 ; s uncle. He escaped from Vietnam and the way the--an officer over there, an Asian, I think an Asian, spoke to him and with the--with his foot on the table, on the dash, and my wife&#039 ; s uncle interpret that look down at us, okay? So he get mad. So he didn&#039 ; t want to go to the United States. Instead he end up going to the French. BRODY: He went to France. (laughs) TRAN: --with the French, and now he still staying in the French. BRODY: Really? Wow. TRAN: Because when he was living in the refugee camp, he has three sisters in the US. So he actually can request--can ask to get over here, yeah. BRODY: But instead he chose to go to France. TRAN: Yeah, so, you know, that sometime for us over here, we think that that&#039 ; s a normal way to deal with the people. But in the different countries, they interpret it a different way. BRODY: They interpret it differently, that&#039 ; s really interesting. Thank you for sharing that story. So when the school year started for the University of Plano, you had to move off of campus. How did you-- |00:32:48| TRAN: Yeah. We--I found a job in August the third, and one week later--no, no, I think--one week before that, one week before that we got sponsored by the St. Pius X. BRODY: Oh, St. Pius X, yes. TRAN: And we move out of the St. Pius X--we move out of the campus to this. And the St. Pius X--the pastor at the time was Monsignor Weinzapfel, he rent a three-bedroom house, and so he--nearby the church. BRODY: Near the church? TRAN: Near the church, and then-- BRODY: East Dallas? TRAN: Yeah, in Dallas. And we moved to there. We have ten people living in a three- bedroom house with only one bathroom. One bathroom. BRODY: Wow, so that&#039 ; s pretty crowded. TRAN: Yeah, very crowded, especially very difficult in the morning. BRODY: Absolutely. TRAN: Kids need to go to school, and sometimes we need to go to work, and so fairly difficult. But we happy. I think Monsignor Weinzapfel and the president of the Men&#039 ; s Club at the time, Mr. Harmon, they very helpful. They visit us very frequent and to make sure that we have all what we need. We really appreciate the St. Pius X, that they open their church for us to use. We--our Vietnamese Catholic group was--at that time, Father Peter Phan, he&#039 ; s the chaplain, and he used--every Sunday we celebrate Mass, we say the Mass at the St. Pius X. BRODY: Right, they gave you the space. |00:35:24| TRAN: They use--we use the St. Pius X facility until 1996 when we bought our own church. So they are very generous to us. BRODY: Very generous. Was Father Peter a refugee as well? TRAN: Yes, Father Peter Phan is--I believe that Dallas Morning News or Dallas Times Herald, there is an article about him, long time ago and I forgot. Father Peter Phan, when we were living in the campus at the University of Plano, the Plano city has summer work, the program for us. And all the Vietnamese refugees who want to go to work for the city of Plano, it&#039 ; s divided into two group--because Father Peter Phan, he speak English very well, he&#039 ; s a professor now at Georgetown--and he&#039 ; s a head of one group. And my brother is the head of another group. Every morning the bus stopped by and picked them up, picked people up and put out on the street, especially on the highway to collect the trash around the city. BRODY: Okay, so cleaning up the highway. TRAN: Yeah, clean up on the highway, you know, the trash. And Father Peter Phan, he&#039 ; s our chaplain from 1975 to 1978, so he have to go to Rome to present his PhD. BRODY: In Rome? TRAN: Yeah, in Rome. He teaches in Rome, and he went back and he become the professor, then teaching UD [University of Dallas] for a while and go to Washington, and now he&#039 ; s a professor. And when he got the second degree, second PhD degree in philosophy or something like that, and I think there was an article in Dallas Morning News or Dallas Time Herald, I forgot. And they said a guy who collect the trash now have two PhD degrees. BRODY: Wow, that&#039 ; s amazing, that&#039 ; s amazing. |00:38:02| TRAN: Yeah. But anyway, St. Pius X, go back, and St. Pius X is our spiritual foundation. So we really up to shape. Without them helping us, without Monsignor Weinzapfel as a pastor of St. Pius X support us, without Dallas Diocese support us, I don&#039 ; t know how we are looking--how we look as a community, a Vietnamese community, today. With the support from them, I think, in 1993 we split into three different Vietnamese Catholic church. One is St. Peter in Dallas, and Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, and St. Joseph in Carrollton. Especially Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, right now we have 1,800 families. BRODY: Wow, that&#039 ; s huge. TRAN: So we&#039 ; re talking about somewhere around eight thousand people. BRODY: So the community has really grown. TRAN: Yeah. I think, but we start at the St. Pius X. BRODY: Yeah. Let me go back to that time. So at St. Pius X, Monsignor Weinzapfel, what kind of man was he and why was he so supportive, do you think, of the Vietnamese refugees? What was he like? |00:39:44| TRAN: I think--he&#039 ; s originated from German, so his parents living in the rural area somewhere south of Dallas. So I believe that he really particularly have sympathy with the refugees, not only the Vietnamese but many people also. I think he sponsored many foreigners, including one of the Indians priests--at the time I was living over there he still a priest but later on he become a bishop. Monsignor Weinzapfel, he&#039 ; s very good, he&#039 ; s--and for the Vietnamese, he&#039 ; s--I mean, he&#039 ; s ready to help us. I remember once--he tried to do everything to make our life as easy--as smooth--as easy as possible--and I remember one time, my mother, of course, she couldn&#039 ; t speak English, she came over here, she has no formal education. Monsignor Weinzapfel said, &quot ; Well, you can do confession with me. You just speak Vietnamese, and I speak English for the-- BRODY: Confession? TRAN: Yeah, &quot ; for the confession. God will understand, don&#039 ; t worry about that.&quot ; BRODY: That&#039 ; s wonderful. TRAN: So he&#039 ; s very easygoing. And I, at first, I tell you--I might misunderstand him, the way he treat us. Well, when he just sponsored us and we just arrived at the St. Pius X, living in that three-bedroom house. And he told a guy to stop by and show me how to drive the motorcycle, and he want to buy the motorcycle so that I can drive back and forth to work. And you know that from the St. Pius X, go to Stemmons, maybe about thirty minute, forty minute of driving on the highway. How can I drive the motorcycle? BRODY: (laughs) So that was his idea? TRAN: Yeah. I think that&#039 ; s not good idea, so why you treat us that way? But, I mean, just only a little bit confusing the first time. So later on, when I understand him, he&#039 ; s the guy who can go out and do the sport or fly airplane and everything. So to him-- BRODY: That&#039 ; s not a big deal. TRAN: --that&#039 ; s not a big deal to him. And I keep good relationship with him until he die in 2016. I used to visit him, and I believe I don&#039 ; t surprise when in 2016 when he pass away, the Dallas Morning News announced that the iconic priest just passed away. BRODY: Right, so he was recognized-- TRAN: So everybody respect him. |00:43:39| BRODY: --in the community. So you&#039 ; ve talked about your Catholic faith and that that was really important. TRAN: Yeah. It&#039 ; s very important to us. BRODY: Can you tell--take me back to those four o&#039 ; clock masses that you had at the-- that you were celebrating at St. Pius X. What was the environment, what did it feel like, what do you remember that experience every week being like? TRAN: Yeah, the--we really valued the Mass at four o&#039 ; clock at St. Pius, especially the first several years. The Vietnamese Catholics from everywhere around the Dallas-- sometimes Carollton, sometimes somewhere--they always tried to go to the four o&#039 ; clock Mass. And some of the time when we go to four o&#039 ; clock Mass--because I was living very close to the church so they stop by and visit or talk maybe at least about an hour before they go to the church. We, at the time, the St. Pius X and the Mass is a very good opportunity for us to meet each another. BRODY: To connect? TRAN: After a week of working--yeah, to keep connecting. So secondly, the four o&#039 ; clock Mass always celebrate in Vietnamese, and that will help us a lot. Most of our people, we just don&#039 ; t understand very well English, English very well. So we could go to the English Mass sometime--we don&#039 ; t get lost throughout the Mass, but at the sermons we just don&#039 ; t understand. BRODY: Was there a Vietnamese choir? TRAN: Yeah, there&#039 ; s a Vietnamese choir. The funny thing is for Vietnamese, wherever they--the Vietnamese Catholic, whatever church, they always have a big choir or multiple choirs. You can imagine the Mother of Perpetual Help in Garland, they have four or five choirs. BRODY: Wow. TRAN: Each Mass, they have a different choir. And in St. Pius X at the time, the choir is maybe twenty, thirty people easily. BRODY: Were you in the choir? TRAN: I&#039 ; m not in the choir. (Brody laughs) I don&#039 ; t sing very well. (Brody laughs) But the Monsignor Weinzapfel, he&#039 ; s very surprised, he said, &quot ; Wow, the Vietnamese love to sing.&quot ; BRODY: Love to sing. TRAN: Yeah. And I think that at one time the Vietnamese choir even go to cathedral or some place to sing also. BRODY: Do they sing in Vietnamese? TRAN: In Vietnamese, yeah. And that is--and secondly, at the same parish we have the Monsignor Weinzapfel allow us to use some classroom so that we can teach the Vietnamese. BRODY: Language class? TRAN: Wherever we go, we always try to teach the kid Vietnamese. And I believe--I think that at the time I was a teacher, I tried to teach kid the Vietnamese also. |00:47:13| BRODY: Well, on that subject of language, why was it important to the Vietnamese community to keep teaching the children Vietnamese? TRAN: Yeah, first of all, so that we can--we hope when the kids grow up they be able to read Vietnamese. If they can read the Vietnamese they understand us more, they understand the Vietnamese culture, custom, more, okay? Then also to us, we still have Vietnam, okay? So we think that with teaching our Vietnamese, our kids Vietnamese, one day they can communicate--for the reason of communication. And it turned out that I-- here is my philosophy about the Vietnamese language: I think when the kid go back to-- even they born over here, we&#039 ; d rather teach them the Vietnamese because when they go to the school they speak English anyway. So for them, the English is still the primary language. And it turn out that, like, my daughter, we always speak--my children also, especially right now my daughter is a good example--they speak Vietnamese, they can read the Vietnamese. So my daughter right now, she&#039 ; s a medical doctor, she&#039 ; s a doctor. So she practice in Wylie. After two year, year or two, right now more and more of her clients are Vietnamese. BRODY: Oh, I see, serving the community. TRAN: Yeah, in Vietnamese, she helps answer. So even the practice, mainly owned by the American couple, but they have more clients. BRODY: That are Vietnamese. That&#039 ; s interesting. TRAN: They start to go to see my daughter. Even right now she has the limit, the upper limit is two thousand patient. That&#039 ; s the max, because each day one doctor should take about twenty, twenty-five patient. But lately, some Vietnamese ask her so she have to go back and ask the managers if she can receive more patient or not. And now my daughters and my children, they enjoy the Vietnamese music. The culture is the--that they have an opportunity to learn the culture. BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s interesting. So-- TRAN: And to me, then you&#039 ; ll--not only Vietnamese. If I know something in some other language, I would like to teach my kids because the more languages you know, the better off you are. |00:50:39| BRODY: Sure. Absolutely. It helps, it&#039 ; s an asset, it sounds like, for your daughter. Well, thinking also about that, knowing the language, knowing English, knowing Vietnamese, how do you think of yourself in terms of--are you American, are you Vietnamese American, are you Vietnamese? How do you think of your own identity? TRAN: Oh. My--you know that--here&#039 ; s the thing--I still believe that even--I still believe that I am a Vietnamese, yeah. Let&#039 ; s put it this way: I read English more than I read in Vietnamese. Everything I read, most of the stuff I read is English. But when I pray, I pray in Vietnamese. BRODY: I see. TRAN: Because that is from the deepest level, it&#039 ; s my-- BRODY: Your soul. TRAN: It&#039 ; s from my soul, my heart. So if you born as an American, you can speak French, you can speak German, you can speak anything, but whenever you hear--to go deep into your soul, you&#039 ; re still thinking in English. Yeah, that&#039 ; s in--yeah. |00:52:16| BRODY: That&#039 ; s an interesting perspective. So you&#039 ; re still very religious and involved in the church still? TRAN: Now I&#039 ; m retired, I&#039 ; m not involved anymore, but I go to the church regularly and practice the faith. |00:52:37| BRODY: During those times, the Vietnamese communities that you said came together before and during that four o&#039 ; clock Mass, were there other cultural things that you did or celebrations that were particular to the Vietnamese community in the St. Pius church? TRAN: At hindsight, the Mass and the Vietnamese class, that class, and that&#039 ; s what my focus on the teaching Vietnamese. So my brother, he&#039 ; s very active in the communities also. But I work in a different area. Like, I have contributed to the Vietnamese magazines, but not for the Catholic, for everybody. Yeah, something like that. BRODY: What kind of articles were you contributing? TRAN: Normally we go back with the--I specialize in Vietnamese poetry. BRODY: Poetry? TRAN: Yeah, most of my focus on--at the time, we didn&#039 ; t have much books in Vietnamese. We left the country with empty hands. We didn&#039 ; t have anything. Normally we relied on our memories. BRODY: To remember the stories. TRAN: Yeah, remember a story here and there and try to put together some magazine, and contribute and share with the people. BRODY: Yeah, that&#039 ; s true, you did-- TRAN: And my brother, he&#039 ; s involved very much, in very deep in the Catholic communities. You might want to interview him, ask him, yeah. |00:54:52| BRODY: Yeah, I think I would love to. When you were in El Centro Community College and UT--Dallas studying, what was it like to be a student and a newly arrived Vietnamese refugee at that time? TRAN: Yeah, that&#039 ; s what I--first of all, when I go to the school, it&#039 ; s fairly difficult for me to understand what teacher--because, yeah, he&#039 ; s supposed to try to teach me. But secondly, I feel that over here instructors or the teacher, they want us to be success. And when I went to El Centro or UTD, I&#039 ; m very good at the science and technology course. But in the liberal courses I&#039 ; m not very good, because I couldn&#039 ; t read English very well at the time. But over here the--I have to believe that the--we have very good education systems. Yeah, good education system. And the oriental people, when they came over here, we, as I said, we really emphasize about the education. So many of us, they make some progress, success. |00:56:30| BRODY: Did you interact very much with American students of different--other races? TRAN: Not very much, but we don&#039 ; t isolate ourselves. We try to-- BRODY: Try to interact. TRAN: Yeah, interact with them. BRODY: What were the main barriers to-- TRAN: It&#039 ; s still--the main barrier is still the language and the culture. So the reason we don&#039 ; t interact very much is because, as I said, the culture is--even I&#039 ; m living here more than forty years, okay? There&#039 ; s some time I want to say something and I have to be aware about that because something we don&#039 ; t think that is serious, but to the other people--like, for instance, to American, we say something, they think that it&#039 ; s not good. BRODY: So it&#039 ; s back to the misunderstanding. TRAN: Yeah, it&#039 ; s not good. So creating more confusion. So I have--I mean, working for forty-one years, but in the last few years, I have the meeting all the time with people, with employee, but when I say something I make sure to say something that is very clear. So (laughs)-- BRODY: Yeah, you don&#039 ; t want any misunderstandings. TRAN: Yeah. |00:58:07| BRODY: Kind of on a related subject in terms of misunderstanding, have you experienced much in the way of discrimination? Some people say there was some discrimination during those times. Did you experience anything like that? TRAN: I don&#039 ; t have that much experience, probably because the working environment. I don&#039 ; t know why, but when we came over here, people really were friendly to us. Like the folks--when we started to work for Sun Oil, about a month or so, this guy, his name is Bill Boucher, he specialized in the history. His major is history. But he was a marine, and he came to my country. And he said when he come back over here, he think about the Vietnam War and he cried so often and drink--get drunk all the time. So when he met us he talk to us and treat us very friendly, and he give us the--when me and my brother, after a while working together and then they split into the different shifts, so we need one more car. So he in the process of divorce his wife, but he still thinking very well-- thinking about us very much. So he give us his car, his Volkswagen. BRODY: Wow. That&#039 ; s generous. TRAN: So I don&#039 ; t--if the people treat me that way, how can they say--yeah. And then I know another guy, he&#039 ; s a black. He&#039 ; s big--I forgot his name--he&#039 ; s really big. And I&#039 ; m a small guy, so at the time we monitor the tape drive, every night we pull all the tape that we don&#039 ; t use anymore, then we clean it up, we call it the scratch tape. And my arm is just about four or five tapes, that&#039 ; s big enough--that&#039 ; s enough. But for him, ten or fifteen. (Brody laughs) He always help me to-- BRODY: To carry. TRAN: Yeah, to carry all the tape. He&#039 ; s really--I met many people that they treat us very well. And I met a guy when we&#039 ; re still living in campus at the University of Plano, there was a salesman. He sells the compressor. So one day stopped by the campus and took me and my brother to his home for meals. BRODY: Oh, that&#039 ; s nice. |01:00:58| TRAN: And then he give us $100. And he told us one thing: &quot ; I don&#039 ; t require you to do anything for me, but if some day you have opportunity, you need to help other people.&quot ; And I have an experience when I was working at the Sun Oil as a data controller--that&#039 ; s the next level from the computer operator. The next level is programmer analyst. There was a manager, she was a pilot, World War II pilot. And somehow, she really liked me and she fought with the other managers. &quot ; Oh, I like Bac,&quot ; she didn&#039 ; t care when she get mad, she spoke loudly. She want me to--she want to move me up to the--to give me-- BRODY: The promotion. TRAN: --to give me that position, yeah. And finally she got the position for me. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. TRAN: So, I mean, not only that, but many other examples. I only about the good people. So that&#039 ; s why I think including Monsignor Weinzapfel. So I think I met so many, many Good Samaritans. So I don&#039 ; t know, I don&#039 ; t have much experience about the discrimination. BRODY: Right. Well that&#039 ; s good. TRAN: Yeah. Including not only the white, but the black, and everybody treat me real nice. And so I--the first Christmas, the people in the data centers of the Sun Oil company, they put together, give and donate a lot of food, a lot of stuff, and they give to my brother and me. But we stack up one Volkswagen, full of one Volkswagen. BRODY: Wow, you got full of donations. TRAN: Yeah. So I--all I have--of course I have some bad experience, but not very much, but that not because American or non-American, that&#039 ; s a human being. Wherever you go on the world, you still run into the good people and the bad people, all the time. So I don&#039 ; t regard as the discrimination. |01:03:50| BRODY: I understand, that&#039 ; s great. So in terms of after--initially you guys were all living in the house near St. Pius X. How did the process go, did you stay there for a long time? TRAN: We stayed there about a couple years. But, I mean, that first month Monsignor Weinzapfel, he got money from USCC, okay? So he paid the rent for us. BRODY: From Catholic Charities [USA]? TRAN: Yeah, Charities. Paid the rent for us. I think at that time fairly cheap rent, may not be very expensive, but he paid the rent for us until the fund was out. We have ten people, so they assigned for us about $3,000. So he paid until they ran out, so he assumed the financial responsibility. So we&#039 ; re there, stay about two years, then we bought another house, bigger house, but nearby in the same zip code. BRODY: Did the whole family stay together? TRAN: Yeah, the whole family stay together. That&#039 ; s our custom, we stay together until my sister got married, so she move out. Until I marry, move out, and then until--yeah. Everybody, we stay that way. Because we stay together so we save a lot of money, and that&#039 ; s why we can afford the house. I don&#039 ; t know the next wave of immigration, but the very first wave of immigration, we always want to live independently. And that&#039 ; s why it surprise a lot to the local peoples in our areas. We don&#039 ; t demand and we have a very minimal needs for our life. One funny thing is--or funny story is when they took us from Guam island, they flew to the US and they had to stop the airplane, had to stop at Hawaii airport for a few hours. My mother, at the time, she was about fifty-three years old. But when she stay at night, she stay in that airport, she lay down on the carpet on the floor. She said, &quot ; I can stay over here. I feel comfortable enough.&quot ; (Brody laughs) We don&#039 ; t have a lot of demand when we came over here. We&#039 ; re living together until we got marriage than we move out. Like I said, me, I got marriage in 1982, move out. |01:06:44| BRODY: How did you meet your wife? TRAN: I meet my wife at--my wife is actually--my friend actually working together with my wife in the Wichita, Kansas. They work in an airplane manufacturer. He got wedding, in his wedding, I attend his wedding party and I met my wife over there and so from there we make friend and we know each other and then-- BRODY: Get married. That&#039 ; s a nice story. |01:07:26| TRAN: We got marriage, and--as I go back, as I said, I really--we really emphasize on the education. Not only for ourselves, but for our children also, and that&#039 ; s why we can sacrifice heavily, sacrifice everything for the education of the kids. And like--I send all my kids--I have two sons and two daughters--send them to Baylor. BRODY: They all went to Baylor? TRAN: The first one, my son, at the time in 2001, 2002, he started to go to the Baylor. It&#039 ; s about $18,000 a year for room and board. And my youngest daughters started to go the Baylor in 2011. It&#039 ; s about $50,000 a year. BRODY: Wow, that&#039 ; s a dramatic-- TRAN: Yeah. We sacrifice everything for the kids. So sometime some people in my company at the time--I was working with Hunt Oil. He said, &quot ; Bac Tran, he just helped the Baylor to build a building.&quot ; BRODY: (laughs) They should name a building after you. TRAN: (laughs) Yeah. They don&#039 ; t realize that we really sacrifice for the education, and that&#039 ; s why you can see many kids are very successful right now. That tradition is rooted in the Vietnamese culture. It&#039 ; s a long time, and still going on right now, not only abroad but in Vietnam also. I normally go onto YouTube and watch some shows, you know, that some Vietnamese parents, they are farmers, they are fishermen, they have nothing, but they sacrifice everything for their daughter or for their son so that they can move up to become the actress, to become the singer or everything. They can spend almost most of their fortunes. BRODY: Right, so that the family and education-- TRAN: Yeah, family, education. That&#039 ; s the culture. It&#039 ; s different from here also. Over here, they sacrifice for the kids, but not to that level. They have to save for themselves also, okay. It&#039 ; s a different cultures. I&#039 ; m not saying that who is better, but it&#039 ; s just a different cultures. |01:10:33| BRODY: So tell me about the Vietnamese community here. Do you see that same culture transitioning and staying solid here in Texas, here in the United States? Those same traditions and values, are they being passed down and carried on in the younger generations? TRAN: The younger generation, of course, they&#039 ; re more Americanized, and that&#039 ; s why you have to believe in the education. Like, my children, we only speak in Vietnamese, and sometimes even right now I send them a Snapchat just, like, this morning with the text written in Vietnamese. They understand, but they feel more comfortable speaking English with each another. Even Yen is my niece, she feels more comfortable with the English, okay? Not only language but I think the culture or the way of thinking, lifestyle, learning, probably they feel more comfortable. And the change--we have to accept the changes. We cannot stop the changes, that&#039 ; s the realities. And that&#039 ; s why the Chinese, they very wise, they have a book written six thousand years ago, we call the Book of Changes. If you don&#039 ; t change, we have to live and if we want to live, we want to survive, we have to change. But we have to keep our roots, and that&#039 ; s why I want my children know how to speak Vietnamese, know how to enjoy the Vietnamese food, other Vietnamese cultures, yeah. But we have to change. BRODY: Yeah. How, in your family, have you cooked together, taught your children how to cook Vietnamese food? What role have those kind of traditions played in your family? TRAN: Yeah, my wife is very good about that. But my children, they know how to make some Vietnamese dishes but not as my wife expect. She&#039 ; s a very good chef. |01:13:32| BRODY: Yes, that&#039 ; s a good compliment. Are you very involved in the larger Vietnamese community in Dallas? TRAN: Not at this time-- BRODY: Not right now? TRAN: Yeah, not right now. BRODY: What is your impression of that community? Is it a unified community, or are there a lot of differences, or is it just very big? TRAN: It&#039 ; s--we still connect to each anothers, but it&#039 ; s not solid, not cohesive like in the past. In the past we always find the opportunity to meet each another, but right now, we--yeah. BRODY: Why do you think that is? TRAN: That&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m saying, it&#039 ; s just change. Everything is changing, even in Vietnam. You know that we have a custom in the New Year, okay, we spend fifteen days to celebrate New Year, big festival. We go out and meet and visit each another. But now, in these--over here, we don&#039 ; t do that anymore, but in Vietnam, they start to abandon that custom also. BRODY: Really? TRAN: Yeah. And things--I mean, in Vietnam we have the--back to the old days, very strictly, we don&#039 ; t live together before we got marriage. We carry out that custom to over here, but now people over here, the young people, they don&#039 ; t care about that. But we don&#039 ; t criticize them because in Vietnam they&#039 ; re doing the same thing. BRODY: Right, the same pattern. TRAN: Yeah, the same pattern. It&#039 ; s everywhere in the world. BRODY: Just modern life. TRAN: Modern life. People used to blame on the--online or the communication here that is spreading. Sometime I think about that also, but I think back to the old days. Why-- back to the old day, the science and technology was not very advanced, we don&#039 ; t have that mass communication. Why, back to the old day, in the fifth century BC we start to have some kind of religious leaders, started to go out, you see the movement, like Buddha. And then you go back to the China, you will see the Confucius. It&#039 ; s the same. They don&#039 ; t communicate together, but that like, go--when the human being go through that point of the history, they start to see the similar things. The philosophy started to change. So I know it&#039 ; s--everything is change. But if we can keep our roots, maybe better. |01:17:05| BRODY: Yeah, the roots. Are you involved in politics in either--or keep up with politics in either the United States or Vietnam? Are you interested in-- TRAN: I&#039 ; m interested in current events, but I mean--political events. I&#039 ; ve been reading, but I don&#039 ; t involve into it, because I--like, tomorrow, we go out and vote. I identify by myself as an independent voter. I don&#039 ; t want to belong to either, but I just vote on the issues it depend on. BRODY: In what way do you think your life experiences--both before you came here, your refugee experience and then your life here as an American--inform your view on different--you know, in politics? TRAN: We left Vietnam, we are the first group of people who--first, 130,000 people who left Vietnam. Most of us left Vietnam for the political reason. So we don&#039 ; t come over here for financial or economic reasons, because we didn&#039 ; t accept the communists. As I said, I was originally from north of Vietnam. So all my father took us from north of Vietnam to south of Vietnam in 1954 when I was five years old. And I am a Catholic with a root of anti-communist, and I still believe that communist is not good as of today, as of this moment ; I still don&#039 ; t believe the communist is good. So we came over here with a political reason. And we think in the United States we have democracy--even right now, of course, in any society you still have a lot of issue, you still have a lot of things to be improved. But this country have a very good systems, if people is aware about that and try to improve upon that. But in these days I can sometime (unintelligible)--everything Democrats say, then the Republicans say, &quot ; Not good, no good.&quot ; And everything Republicans say, Democrats say, &quot ; No good.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s why you go back to the Gospel, many times Jesus Christ perform the miracles to cure the deaf. I think if we don&#039 ; t listen to each other I don&#039 ; t know how can we improve our societies. BRODY: That&#039 ; s a really good point. TRAN: But we still have a very good system. I still believe in that. And when you believe through the systems you can do better things for our societies. In the last ten years, I work as a database administrator for Hunt Oil. I never request to have merit. I don&#039 ; t demand much, but my manager--he retired three years before me--he know that. I still got a very good merit ; I don&#039 ; t demand it. So I truly believe that when we trust the system and we do the work, we do the best we can, we can improve the system. The political system over here is still good. I still trust that and that&#039 ; s why I came over here. If we are living under the communist, it&#039 ; s terrible. And many well-educated Vietnamese people that came over here, they started to criticize the south government back before 1975. They write book, they write article, but they didn&#039 ; t realize that they build up their education, they got their degree, they move up in the society in south of Vietnam. They didn&#039 ; t move up and they don&#039 ; t get the degree from the north of Vietnam. So, I mean, it&#039 ; s the same thing over here. If we believe to our system, we can improve it. |01:22:40| BRODY: Thank you. My last question for you is one that, I&#039 ; m curious--to you, what does it mean to be an American? Whether it&#039 ; s yourself or your kids or grandkids, when someone says &quot ; I&#039 ; m American,&quot ; in a few words, what does that mean to you? TRAN: I&#039 ; m proud to be an American. Even deep into my heart, I still thinking I&#039 ; m a Vietnamese, but I&#039 ; m proud to be an American. American stands for freedom, independence, and that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m looking for. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great. Well, thank you very much. Is there anything that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you&#039 ; d like to comment on? TRAN: I think you asked me all--yeah, I think that&#039 ; s all I can contribute. (laughs) BRODY: Oh, thank you, it&#039 ; s been wonderful to talk to you, and thank you very much for sharing your story. It&#039 ; s been a pleasure, thank you for having this conversation. TRAN: Thank you. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2018oh006_btba_005.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bac Tran Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2018oh006_btba_005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/files/original/d5dd9e3ec26802626b733cf13a93a634.jpg 675be6b66b7f05df76728fdf5bc7facb Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betsy Brody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chi Nguyen OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Interview with Chi Nguyen, October 26, 2018 2018oh005_btba_003 46:31 ohbtba Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans btba001 Vietnamese in North Texas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans Chi Nguyen Betsy Brody mp3 oh-audio-dig-nguyec_20181026.mp3 1:|22(5)|38(13)|66(2)|83(10)|102(14)|124(14)|149(2)|171(8)|194(1)|217(14)|226(7)|262(4)|281(9)|311(13)|336(12)|360(4)|379(15)|398(6)|426(7)|446(6)|460(1)|482(11)|512(12)|524(6)|541(5)|559(5)|582(4)|608(3)|625(12)|647(13)|667(2)|694(8)|721(5)|740(2)|760(2)|780(2)|798(2)|815(7)|831(2)|855(7)|882(6)|898(7)|907(6)|920(4)|934(14)|948(7) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/117544 Aviary audio 0 Interview Introduction 22 Father put in reeducation camp after Fall of Saigon/Mother raised seven children alone BRODY: Can you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam before you came to Texas? NGUYEN: Yes. So we—I came from a big family. So we had about seven of us. So after ’75, the Fall of Saigon in 1975—so, my father was put in the, you know, reeducation camp. So my mom said—so we had to move from, you know, Danang. That’s where we grew up, and we moved to Saigon, you know, before the Fall. Then after my dad gets in the camp, my mom is single, by herself, raised seven of us. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: So we all head to, you know, she worked all by herself, all she wanted us to do, you know, go to school and try to learn and work hard on the learning. BRODY: Yes. Had you dad been involved in the military? NGUYEN: Yes, he was in the army, and he was a captain, you know, he vowed to promote up, but you know with the Fall of Saigon, so we had to—think about the future, you know, I mean, you cannot stay in Danang. It’s a smaller city, it’s a lot more under control. If you’re in the bigger city, so that’s the (unintelligible), you know, they want to move to Saigon. BRODY: Yes. So you got to the city and your mom worked really hard to raise you guys. NGUYEN: Yep. She worked all by herself. Looking back, I can’t imagine, you know, that she can raise all six of us—six—seven of us all by herself. BRODY: Strong lady, strong lady. NGUYEN: Yes, yes. Danang ; education ; Fall of Saigon ; family ; military ; prison ; reeducation camp ; Saigon ; single mom 139 Nguyen's mother's efforts to make a living in Saigon BRODY: So she emphasized education. How old were you at this time? NGUYEN: So, in ’75 I was about seven years old. BRODY: Seven. So you were in grade school? NGUYEN: Yes. So I was in first grade. We all had to go to school every day. Going home, you know, my older sister and brother helped the younger ones with the homework, all of that, we all have to do that by ourself, you know? And we helped mom a little bit, but you know the main thing, you know, she’s the worker in the family. BRODY: Yeah. What did she do? NGUYEN: Everything. Whatever that she can make money ; you know, sell stuff. So when we moved to Saigon, you know, they wanted move(??) to us. A neighbor that was selling stuff via the markets in our neighborhood, so she can sell different things. You know, she’d make anything to sell, from cookies to bún thịt nướng cha gio, bún riêu, you know, those stuff like that. So she’d make anything just to make a daily living. BRODY: That’s amazing, and she must have been a very strong lady to handle all that. cooking ; employment ; food ; markets ; Saigon ; survival ; work 208 Decision to leave Vietnam for safety reasons/Brother's immigration to the United States BRODY: So then the Fall of Saigon happened, you guys were—what precipitated you leaving Vietnam? NGUYEN: So, we went to school and you know, back then, Vietnam and China had some kind of war, you know? So everybody had to be enlisted in the military. So when you come of age, you know, like seventeen, eighteen, you had to go to the military. And when you go there, the chance for you to die is very high because they’re sending you to Cambodia, at the front end of the war. So my mom thought about this—we had to go. So me and my brother, you know, eventually that’s—you know, we had to leave. BRODY: So you were—I’m sorry—you were seventeen? NGUYEN: Seventeen. BRODY: Okay. And so you and your brother, she decided that it was safer for you to— NGUYEN: Yes, and have better future, that we had to go. Because, you know, if you’re under the former military, you don’t get a lot of chance, you know? BRODY: How did you feel about the decision? Were you a part of the decision-making process? NGUYEN: No, not really. (both laugh) But, you know, I knew that she wanted us to go, and we had brothers who came here first. BRODY: Oh, okay. When did your brothers, your older— NGUYEN: He came in ’78. BRODY: Okay. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he came all by himself. My uncle and my—so on my mom’s side, you know, most of them came in ’75. So my brother came first, and he went to school, same thing, you know? The focus, you had to go get your school and get a degree and find a job. So he came first. BRODY: Where was he? Did he go to a resettlement? NGUYEN: No, he came—so he came in ’78. So he stayed with my uncle in Arkansas. It’s a small city, you know. It’s not a lot of—you want to be something, you want to move to a bigger city. So that’s why he decided to move by himself to Dallas. Yeah, and went to school in Dallas after high school. BRODY: Okay. Where did he go to school? NGUYEN: He went to DeVry. BRODY: Okay. To DeVry, yes. And so then afterwards he got a job, and— NGUYEN: Yeah. He got an engineering job, then we came right afterward. BRODY: So, you were in communication with him and knew where he was— Arkansas ; Cambodia ; China ; conscription ; Dallas ; Devry ; education ; family ; immigration ; military ; refugees ; Vietnam War ; war 375 Escaping Vietnam by boat in 1986/Arriving in Pulau Bidong, Malaysia refugee camp BRODY: So you and your brother, tell me the story of how you got here. NGUYEN: So, it’s—the new year, from 1986, you know, I think it’s January fifth—so me and my brother went to our uncle’s house, you know, where we stayed for the night. Then the day after, you know, all of us went together, came—you know, escaped together. So my uncle had—I think he had—let me try to remember, he had three children. They were all very young. You know, like one, two, or three years old, yeah. And his wife. So early in the morning, we went to the small sea city where you can escape by boat. So we went to the smaller city and stayed there. And you’re kept stay in the safe house until the time is right, then they send you to the boat. BRODY: So you had already made arrangements, your uncle had already made arrangements with someone, and paid? NGUYEN: Yes. So you had to pay, I think it cost—I don’t know how much it cost, but you pay by gold. You don’t pay by money. BRODY: Right, gold. NGUYEN: Yeah. So we went to the small city, you know, it’s a seaside city. I don’t remember the name now, (laughs) you know? BRODY: That’s okay. NGUYEN: But, you know, somewhere in the south of the seaside. So we escaped early in the morning, we went to the small boat. Then from the smaller boat, you know, they take you to the bigger boat. Then— BRODY: And this was all prearranged, the bigger boat was already prearranged? NGUYEN: Yes. So that’s about a hundred—I think 101 people on the boat, small boat. It’s about maybe—I don’t know how long, but it’s not that long, the body about the size of that fence right there. BRODY: Okay. So not a very big boat at all. NGUYEN: Yeah. People were packed together, we had no room to move, just like you see on TV now when people are trying to move from Cuba. People pack in the boat. That’s how we are, like tuna, all packed together. BRODY: Wow. So that must have been pretty scary. NGUYEN: Eh, actually, I guess—I was so young and back then, you know, we didn’t think much. We just wanted to get out, and that’s all I thought about, you know? So I didn’t think much, wasn’t scared ; scare was not a factor at all. BRODY: Oh, okay. So you were just doing it. NGUYEN: You just said you had to go, you had to go, you know? You had to make the difference, you know, we had to go first and we can have the family later. So that’s why we just—you had to do it. So yeah, we were on the boat in the ocean for about five days. Most of the time we had no water, you know, because the main thing you can bring with you— BRODY: The clothes on your back. NGUYEN: Actually, just nothing at all, just one set of clothes. Whatever you wear, that’s all. My mom gave me a little bit of gold, so we put it in the pocket, you know? So we’re on the boat for about five days. Lucky that we did not get robbed by the pirates or anything at all. BRODY: Yeah, that is lucky. NGUYEN: Very lucky. I mean, a lot of people died. You know, you heard the stories of a lot of people dying on the sea. Yeah. So you’re on the boat for five days, and I think we went to—we came to Malaysia, we stayed there for a few months, you know, go through the screening process—no, we came to Pulau Bidong, then we stayed there for about three or four months with the screening process, since, you know, the US had our paperwork already, since my brother came first and my father’s in the military so we get the—they had the number to look up everything, match. So we got a fast track, you know, since we had the record already. So after four months, me and my brother went first. So me and my brother moved to Philippines, you know, for six months, learning period. Then after almost a year I came to the US. boat ; escape ; family ; gold ; leaving Vietnam ; Malaysia ; Phillippines ; pirates ; Pulau Bidong ; refugee camps ; sponsors ; tuna ; United States 652 Arriving in Irving, Texas BRODY: Okay, and so was the first place that you came Texas? NGUYEN: Yes, Irving! Irving, and we stayed in Irving the whole time. Didn’t move at all. (laughs) BRODY: That’s amazing. NGUYEN: So my uncle had to stay since he didn’t have the—you know, they had the screen for political purpose or economic purpose. So he got screening, he didn’t pass, even though his uncle and the rest of the family here. BRODY: Oh boy. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he had to provide some kind of documentation. So luckily, my mom got some kind of documentation to send it to him, and he’d be able to—came to the US much later. BRODY: So how much later? NGUYEN: He came in—I think at least five months or six months after, yeah. BRODY: Okay. And he joined you in Irving? NGUYEN: No, he joined his brother in Arkansas. BRODY: Oh, in Arkansas, okay. NGUYEN: He came to—they came to Arkansas, then after a few months he moved to Dallas, then moved to California. BRODY: Oh, okay, so he ended up in California. Tell me about your first days in Irving. NGUYEN: Oh, wow. BRODY: So your brother was here. What do you remember from that time? NGUYEN: It’s beautiful, you know? We came—it’s cold, you know, November cold. So we landed in Seattle, then from Seattle we landed to Dallas. So I think we came here around eleven o’clock, midnight? Eleven at night? Yeah. The city was beautiful with the lights and the bridge, the one thing that amazed me about—the way that the road and the structure is so amazing, you know? You can go in and out, up and down, go everywhere. So easy to go, not like Vietnam. So it’s beautiful. It’s cold, you know, it’s about Thanksgiving, you know, with the holiday. You see a lot of holiday spirit, and my brother took us to the mall, and it’s beautiful. It’s so scary though. (laughs) BRODY: Which mall, do you remember which mall? NGUYEN: We went to Irving Mall. BRODY: Irving Mall, okay. So it was big. (laughs) NGUYEN: Big. Huge, you know? I think the first night we came we had pho, which is totally different from the way we ate it in Vietnam. (laughs) BRODY: That’s really interesting. What was different about it? NGUYEN: It had to do with the—so in Vietnam you eat, you know, not ready-to-cook pho. You know, pho, you boil— BRODY: It takes all day. NGUYEN: Yeah. But in Vietnam, you had pho too, you know, like they make it the right way. The noodles, they make it—not the instant noodles. BRODY: Right, so that was different. NGUYEN: Yeah, very different than, you know—but it tastes good. You know, I remember, it tastes good. So, my brother stayed at the apartment by himself, so we stayed at the apartment for—I think almost a year. Then my brother saved enough money, he bought the house. He bought the first house. BRODY: Wow. So what was his job? NGUYEN: He was an engineer. BRODY: Engineer. So he’d gone to DeVry, become an engineer. So he was— NGUYEN: You know, back then he’d got a good job, compared to—salary, you know? So he got a good job. So he’s saved enough money, so he bought the house in Irving. So we moved to that house and we went to school. My brother—so I finished high school, then I went to college. My brothers go to high school. apratments ; Arkansas ; California ; Christmas ; cooking ; Dallas ; employment ; food ; holidays ; housing ; Irving ; Irving Mall ; jobs ; lights ; malls ; noodles ; pho ; roads ; screening ; Texas ; weather 861 Attending MacArthur High School and University of Dallas in Irving Texas BRODY: So when you got here, you were already finished with high school. Or you just finished it out here? NGUYEN: No. So when we came—so when we came my brother wanted me to go— even though I’m eighteen already, he said, you know, I need to go to high school at least a year so that way I can learn English. So he wanted me to go there, and so I went to MacArthur High School with my brother. My mom sent us some documentation, like we’d been in school, and these are the credits that we learned in school. So, yeah. So it took me one year to finish the high school here. BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about going to high school at MacArthur High School. So obviously, you didn’t know anybody when you got there. NGUYEN: No, we still don’t. I still don’t have any friends, we didn’t have any friends back then. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) That’s really funny. NGUYEN: So, the main thing you learn, you know, in high school and the goal is to learn English, so I was in the ESL class. The teacher was very nice, she was very nice. I don’t remember her name now. I can picture her face, you know, yeah. My English wasn’t that good, so I don’t even remember the teacher’s name. (laughs) BRODY: That’s okay, but she taught you English and she was a good teacher. NGUYEN: Yes. She taught me English, good teacher, I took all the classes, like the other American student class. So we had to learn more, you know, at night. You had to go to a dictionary, try to read and— BRODY: Right. Because you were taking the regular classes in English, but having to learn— NGUYEN: Yes. So we took math, history and government, and all of that class, yeah. And so I took about—yeah, so—then when I finished high school I took the SAT, then I applied for—I went to University of Dallas. BRODY: University of Dallas, okay. Fantastic. NGUYEN: Yeah. So then after that, four years, I got my BS. I always wanted to be a doctor, but with the English, you know, I didn’t do good on my MCAT. I got the interview but, you know, I guess I didn’t do well in the interview either. Yeah, so I ended up—then I thought about—so for two years I thought about what should I do with my life, you know? I tried getting in medical school, I didn’t get in. Then I said, “Okay, I need to do something else, I cannot do this.” You know? Working minimum hours, you know? So I decided to—I went to pharmacy school. education ; English ; English language ; ESL ; friendships ; high school ; language learning ; MacArthur High School ; MCAT ; medical school ; pharmacy school ; SAT ; schools ; University of Dallas 1021 Memories of bullying in high school/Challenges with communication BRODY: So tell me about—just to go back a little bit, during that period where you’re living with your brother and your other brother was also living with you and you were in high school, did you interact very much with other people, neighbors, or the community? NGUYEN: Not at all. So the neighbor, later on I interacted with the neighbor when I went to university, then I learned more English, then we interacted with the neighbor, she was very nice, yeah. She’s passed away now. She was a retiree, teaching piano every day. She went to church and was teaching piano. In high school we didn’t know any friends. You know, we had a few Vietnamese friends. But I didn’t hang out with any students at all ; you know, went to school—we walked to school, and we walked home every day. You know. We got bullying by other student, one time. BRODY: Really? What did—like, what kind of bullying? NGUYEN: So, I guess me and my brother were just walking home, and minding our own business, and people just come and say—I don’t remember what they said, but they wanted to fight us and pushed us around and all of that stuff. And me and my brother keep walking and we just mind our business and go home. BRODY: That must have been scary. Did it happen often? NGUYEN: No, just one time. Yeah. But, you know, we just mind your business and go home. BRODY: Were they kids from the school? NGUYEN: I think they came from school. BRODY: Yeah, but they just were messing around with you? Wow. So it sounds like learning English was the biggest initial hurdle, right? So had you— NGUYEN: Yes. I think it’s very difficult, you know, every word that you learn—you know, I took French in Vietnam in high school, so when I came—my brother and my mom helped get us to learn English at home, you know, with a tutor, but you know, it’s not much what you learn. And you learn mainly how to read— BRODY: Yes, speaking— NGUYEN: —but we don’t learn how to speak at all. So very difficult to communicate. Even though you’d read it, you can’t understand sometimes. But we cannot say it, you know? It’s hard to say. BRODY: Yeah, it is difficult. NGUYEN: It’s a different practice, yeah. BRODY: So what was the most helpful thing to you in building your confidence in English? NGUYEN: I think, you know—so I guess my brother kept saying, “You’re going to have to go to school. That’s the only way that you can make it here. If you don’t go to school, you cannot make it here.” So that’s why we had to, every day, we just had to study and try to learn the vocabulary, you know, read and do good in school. So even though it took longer for us to finish the homework, but you know, think about the family that you still have in Vietnam and you know what my brother went through already, so he knew the system that, you know, we had to go to school, and that’s why we had to do it. bullying ; education ; English ; friendships ; isolation ; language learning ; learning English ; reading ; school ; speaking ; sucess 1228 Pharmacy School at the University of Texas at Austin So pharmacy school at UT ; did you know other people down in Austin when you went there? NGUYEN: Still, (laughs) you know, I didn’t hang out with a lot of Americans, so I did hang out with my Vietnamese friend. So I knew Dai back in UT, but I didn’t say much with her. You know, she didn’t speak Vietnamese, so I did hang out with the other students who spoke Vietnamese. BRODY: So that’s interesting, yeah. So you had a level of comfort that was higher with other students who spoke Vietnamese, so the language is really key to the— NGUYEN: Yes, yes. So I only hang out with the Vietnamese. Sometimes I don’t feel— we don’t share the same thing, that’s why—with the background, you know? So it’s hard to talk about, and back then people—I don’t know. I just hang out with the Vietnamese students. BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s— NGUYEN: More comfort. BRODY: —comfortable and easy to communicate, and, you know, so much of friendship is communication, right? So that makes sense. What was Austin like? |00:21:33| NGUYEN: Austin is beautiful, you know? So the—so when I went to Austin, you know, we stayed with—I stayed with others. First I went, I stayed with a friend’s family for the first semester. Then after that, I find a few more friends, so we all move out to the apartment. So there’s seven of us in a two bedroom apartment, you know, close to school, and we all had the same, you know, goal is go to school. And we had fun together but, you know, they all learn different subjects ; some of them are engineering students, some of them are medical students, premed. BRODY: Right. And pharmacy, of course, in your case. NGUYEN: Yes. apartment ; Austin ; communication ; culture ; English language ; friendships ; graduate school ; housing ; language ; pharmacy school ; values ; Vietnamese language 1342 Working at Parkland Hospital in Dallas/Observations about Vietnamese community in Dallas BRODY: So, school—after pharmacy school, what happened? NGUYEN: So after pharmacy school I did my rotation here in Dallas, then I did my rotation at Parkland and I got the job at Parkland. BRODY: Great! NGUYEN: I’ve worked at Parkland since then. BRODY: Oh, wow. So you have been at Parkland for a very long time. (laughs) NGUYEN: For a long time. (laughs) |00:22:42| BRODY: Being in the workforce, so now you’re a professional, you’re a pharmacist, and you’re back in the community that you initially settled in, what are some changes that you’ve noticed, as you’ve been here for such a long time, in that community? NGUYEN: For the Vietnamese community, it’s gotten a lot bigger. You know, people— there’s a lot of stores that you see, the Vietnamese people. I see the Vietnamese people expanding to a different career path. So back then when my brother came, you know, all of them are engineers. You know, it’s quick, it’s fast, all the people that I know from his generation is an engineer. So fast, you go to school, the math and the physics, those are easy with numbers, so you don’t need to know a lot of English, you know? I mean, you can do it. Now, I see the Vietnamese community expand to a lot of different—you have doctors, we have lawyers, we have all kinds of careers that I see that’s a Vietnamese. There’s a big Vietnamese health professional in Dallas, you know. I was a member back then, so we did a lot of things for the community. We do a health fair for the community every year, twice a year. BRODY: That’s great, that’s great. So it’s a community that is—it sounds like, still very focused on education. careers ; Dallas ; education ; engineering ; health professionals ; Parkland Hospital ; Vietnamese community 1471 Role of Catholic Church in settlement experience BRODY: Yeah, everybody has moved on to different places. So your first job was at Parkland, you’re still working at Parkland, and—let’s see, so we’ve already talked about that. When you came first, you said you were mostly with your family, with your brother. Did you—were members of a church or a temple at that time? but in downtown Dallas. He was very nice. I don’t think it was the Guadalupe Church, but he was very nice, he helped us a lot. BRODY: Were you Catholic? NGUYEN: No, no. No, I was Buddhist, but, you know, there’s no temple back then. Now we have so many temples, but there’s only one temple initially then, now it’s so many. Yeah, with the help of the Catholics, you know, so that’s why I went to the Catholic school. BRODY: Yeah, at the University of Dallas. So it sounds like you went to the diocese, or was it Catholic Charities [USA]? And they gave you some clothes and maybe money as well. NGUYEN: Yeah. So we got the help, I think six months you got some money. Then after that, you’re on your own. |00:26:06| BRODY: Yeah. Were they able to give you advice or guidance? NGUYEN: No, mainly, you know, mainly my brother, you know? He encouraged us to remain in school and just focus. BRODY: Fantastic. That’s good advice. NGUYEN: Yeah. But my brother, eventually he moved to California. He just wanted to stay with the uncle. |00:24:49| NGUYEN: Yes. So when we came from—I think with the help of the Catholic diocese in Dallas. So that’s where we came every week to get the money, or every month—I don’t remember now. We’d get some benefits. So, some clothes. There’s a priest’s name—I think he’s at Dallas—stayed in one of the Dallas churches, I don’t remember the church, Buddhism ; Catholic Charities ; Catholic Church ; churches ; religion ; temples ; University of Dallas 1595 Reflections on social class BRODY: So, back in Vietnam, your dad was involved with the military, and it sounds like your mom had resources to sort of make sure that you guys stayed in school. Did you feel like when you came—I mean, what were your experiences with social class when you came here? Did you feel like you were in the same sort of level that you had been in Vietnam, or was there a change? NGUYEN: I mean, I didn’t pay much to the social class. I know that, you know, we were on the lower level, but, you know, it’s not that you think about it, you know? You think about the future. Regardless of where you’re at, there’s a future there that you—and you want to get to that future. BRODY: And the key to that, sounds like for you, it was education, right? NGUYEN: Yes. I mean, for all of us, all of my brothers and sisters, came much later, and they all went to school. education ; family ; social class ; social mobility 1653 Arrival and education of the remainder of his siblings in 2004 BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about the rest of your family coming. When did they come? NGUYEN: So my brother came with us, then he went to California to stay with my uncle, then he went to University of San Jose, he’s an engineer. BRODY: The brother that came with you? NGUYEN: Yeah. All of my brothers and sisters came much later, and they’re much older than I was when I came, you know? They all had a job back in Vietnam already, so my sister’s an engineer. The other brothers and sisters, you know, were teachers, and another sister just stayed at home. But when they came, they all went to school again. Like they went to community college, then they all went to university and got a job, yeah. BRODY: So they came maybe in the eighties, then? NGUYEN: So—no. I came in ’86, they came in 2004. BRODY: Oh, okay. Yeah, recently. More recently. NGUYEN: Yeah. They came in 2004. So most of them stayed in Dallas. My mom, after we came—so when we came, everybody stayed in Dallas. You know, the rest of them, my mom wanted to move to California with my uncle. So he moved. When they moved, my brother and sister moved with them, except—so two of my sisters moved. One brother and one sister stayed in Dallas with me, but they all went to school. So the brother and sister who stayed with me went to UTA. My brother—my two sisters in California went to Santa Cruz University. BRODY: Okay, fantastic. NGUYEN: And even here, you know, my father and my mom worked hard and tell my sister and brother, you know, you guys need to go to school. So they still supported us, you know, after they came. BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about the rest of your family coming. When did they come? NGUYEN: So my brother came with us, then he went to California to stay with my uncle, then he went to University of San Jose, he’s an engineer. BRODY: The brother that came with you? NGUYEN: Yeah. All of my brothers and sisters came much later, and they’re much older than I was when I came, you know? They all had a job back in Vietnam already, so my sister’s an engineer. The other brothers and sisters, you know, were teachers, and another sister just stayed at home. But when they came, they all went to school again. Like they went to community college, then they all went to university and got a job, yeah. BRODY: So they came maybe in the eighties, then? NGUYEN: So—no. I came in ’86, they came in 2004. BRODY: Oh, okay. Yeah, recently. More recently. NGUYEN: Yeah. They came in 2004. So most of them stayed in Dallas. My mom, after we came—so when we came, everybody stayed in Dallas. You know, the rest of them, my mom wanted to move to California with my uncle. So he moved. When they moved, my brother and sister moved with them, except—so two of my sisters moved. One brother and one sister stayed in Dallas with me, but they all went to school. So the brother and sister who stayed with me went to UTA. My brother—my two sisters in California went to Santa Cruz University. BRODY: Okay, fantastic. NGUYEN: And even here, you know, my father and my mom worked hard and tell my sister and brother, you know, you guys need to go to school. So they still supported us, you know, after they came. Arlington ; California ; Dallas ; education ; family ; immigration ; Santa Cruz ; siblings ; university ; UTA 1774 Nguyen's parents' immigration to the U.S. through the Orderly Departure Program BRODY: So your mom and dad both came too. NGUYEN: Yes. BRODY: Where are they? NGUYEN: They’re in California. They work. My mom—my dad works for more like, you know, golf, you know, cleaning, minimum hour job. My mom works for some seafood packaging company. BRODY: So now the whole family is in the US? NGUYEN: Yes. So they work minimum hour job, and they save money and support us. My sister and brother didn’t have the work, they just had to go to school. Then after that they help out, you know, get a part-time job. But still, my parents’ goal is the same. You know, regardless of your age, you need to go to school. If you don’t get a job, don’t get a degree, you can’t find a job. So they all went to school, and they all get a degree and get a job. BRODY: That’s a big accomplishment for your parents. NGUYEN: Yes, even though they work minimum hours, they still can save money. That’s amazing. It’s a small house where they stay in California. It’s like, it has two rooms, this room and the other room. Maybe three rooms. It’s about four hundred square feet or something. So I remember, every year, I came to California to visit, we stay in one family room, we all lie on the floor. (laughs) BRODY: Right. A lot of people. NGUYEN: A lot of people. Yeah, but they manage. It’s amazing that, you know, my parents sacrifice for all of us. BRODY: They really did. And your dad—since your mom had been raising all of you as a single mom, when did your dad return to the family? NGUYEN: So he came—he returned after seven years, or seven and a half years, in the camp. Yeah. Then after that he couldn’t find a job, you know, with the background. Then they processed, my brother sponsored them— BRODY: Your brother that came first? Okay, so then that’s— NGUYEN: So that’s how they came with—and they came with their—what do you call the one if you work in the South government, you came under the ODP? BRODY: Oh, the ODP program. NGUYEN: Yeah, ODP program. And they were sponsored by I think Senator McCain. BRODY: Oh, by Senator McCain. NGUYEN: And John Kerry. BRODY: Oh, okay. Did they ever interact with Senator McCain and Kerry? NGUYEN: No, but you know, that program is sponsored by the— BRODY: Oh I see, yes, that program was sponsored by them. California ; education ; employment ; housing ; minimum wage jobs ; money ; ODP ; Orderly Departure Program ; parents ; prison ; reeducation camp ; sacrifice ; sponsorship ; work 1925 Attitudes about and engagement with American politics Yes. Okay, well that is— one of my other questions is, in terms of speaking of the Senators and the law, did your family or yourself have any engagement with politics once you came here? Are you interested or engaged? NGUYEN: I mean, it’s very—the US government is very interesting. I love the government, I think it’s a very good government model. But at the same time, it has some flaws to it. BRODY: Yes, what do you think some of those flaws are? NGUYEN: I mean, that’s why we get ourselves in the current situation, you know? It’s a democratic society, it’s very hard to get things done, you know? It takes forever to get one thing done, because everybody wants to do this and that and too many voices, you know? In Saigon it had to do with, you know, the term limits, but there’s no term limit. So, it becomes their job, you know? So then they’re protecting themselves, so that’s what I don’t like. BRODY: Yeah. So are you politically engaged, or anybody in your family? NGUYEN: I’m not. I vote, you know— BRODY: Well, that’s engaged. NGUYEN: I do my right, I exercise my right to vote, but I’m not engaged in, you know, in the (unintelligible). American government ; democracy ; government ; politics ; term limits ; voting 2022 Differences between earlier and later arrivals from Vietnam BRODY: Okay. Now, you mentioned that you had two kids. How did you meet your wife? Is she also Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Yes, she’s Vietnamese. I met my wife through another friend. So we just went to go out and just met at the, you know, at the restaurant and I get her number and talk to her. BRODY: Did she grow up here as well? NGUYEN: No. She grew up in Vietnam and they came much later. I think they came in—she came in 2004. BRODY: Are there differences—I’m curious—in, you know, what we talked about earlier, how when you were in Austin at UT, you gravitated towards students who also had shared your kind of experience of being Vietnamese and coming to this country. Is there a different perspective from people who, like your wife, came later on, or is it kind of a shared experience still? NGUYEN: I think it’s still shared. When she came, you know, I mean, English is the main thing, you know, communication. So she—by the time she came, you know, there’s a bigger Vietnamese community already, so she had a lot more friends than I did in college. When I went to University of Dallas, there were maybe three or four Vietnamese students, you know, at University of Dallas, and none of them speak Vietnamese. So I didn’t hang out with any of them, you know? BRODY: Right. And you were focused on your studies, too. NGUYEN: Yeah. And when my wife came, you know, there’s a bigger community and everybody speaks Vietnamese already. BRODY: Yeah, there is a—it’s a different experience. NGUYEN: And she has a lot more friends, yeah. Austin ; English language ; friendship ; marriage ; Universityof Dallas ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese language ; wife 2131 Growth in the Vietnamese community BRODY: That’s interesting. That community really has grown, and you’ve been here with a front row seat for watching the growth of the community. There’s the restaurants and the temples and so on. Do you think that—if you could think of a few words to describe the Vietnamese community in this area, what words would choose? NGUYEN: Strong, but they’re not unified. BRODY: Not unified. What are some different sort of pieces of that community? NGUYEN: I think it’s that there’s a gap between the old generation and the young generation leadership. I think the old generations still think with the memory back then, they’re not ready to let go. BRODY: So they’re still thinking about Vietnam and about the war, the older generation. NGUYEN: Yeah. So the new generation think differently, like, openness with Vietnam, all of that, you know? So there’s a difference. But we’re not unified, you know? We want the freedom of Vietnam, but so many things that you’re not unified to do the same thing. generational differences ; memories ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War ; Vietnamese community 2218 Relationship with Vietnam BRODY: Yeah, what do you think about that, about a relationship with Vietnam for the United States? NGUYEN: For me, it’s a good thing that you need to open up, you know, that’s how you can let the people know what it’s like to be free. If people don’t know what it means to be free, then how do you know to fight for their freedom? So it’s good that we need to open up and let them know. Now with the open internet, you know, Vietnamese don’t have— not like China. I think they have a lot more open communication, internet. So you see with all the protests in Vietnam nowadays, that people start to learn, people know there’s a freedom that you can fight for, you know? So it makes the difference. BRODY: And so do you think that the Vietnamese Americans and especially the younger generation are a factor in helping open up that thinking about freedom in Vietnam? NGUYEN: I think it has to do with Vietnam—I think they’ll open up first with the US and the Vietnam, I think they had the open relationship, you know, back in maybe 1986 or 1987. So with that openness, you know, it brings a lot more openness to Vietnam. And if people here start to share stories on the internet and when they went back to Vietnam and visit, you know, they share stories, so yeah. BRODY: About their lives here in— NGUYEN: Yeah, their life here and, you know, what it means to be free and all of that. Back then, you know, in Vietnam, you cannot say anything to the leadership, you know, if you say anything bad then, you know, you go to jail. People are more opened up now, they can say more things. BRODY: Right. It’s less risky. NGUYEN: Yeah. China ; freedom ; internet ; openness ; politics ; protests ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese politics 2338 Meaning of freedom BRODY: Well, tell me, since you used that phrase—I’m interested—to you, what does it mean to be free? NGUYEN: You know, free is a—free, you can do things that you want to do, you can say anything that you want to do, but at the same time, people here sometimes take it so lightly, they don’t take their responsibility. So free doesn’t mean you can do anything you want. You know, free has limitations to what you can do. BRODY: Yeah, freedom and responsibility. NGUYEN: And that always has to go together, and sometimes people here take it for granted, they don’t have that responsibility, you know? freedom ; limits ; responsibility 2385 Vietnamese American identity BRODY: Yeah, that makes sense. So, you’re kind of bridging—your experience bridges the—you know, you’re not really the old generation in that you’re not old, but you’re not a new arrival either, and, you know, you have kids of your own. How do you think of yourself, your identity as an American, as a Vietnamese American? NGUYEN: I think of myself as Vietnamese American, you know? I still have a lot of culture since I grew up in Vietnam, I still have a lot of thinking like the Vietnamese. My kids are totally different now, you know, they don’t think like that already. (laughs) BRODY: What are the differences that you’ve noticed? NGUYEN: They’re telling me that, you know, Americans, they don’t need to learn Vietnamese. BRODY: Oh, interesting. So did you want them to learn Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Well yes, they go to school, they go to Vietnamese school. BRODY: They do, okay. But they’re saying they’re— NGUYEN: But for me, I think I still identify myself as more, like, Vietnamese American, you know, more Vietnamese than American, even though I’ve stayed here longer than I grew up in Vietnam, you know? I’m fifty years old now, yes, but I still have a lot of culture, you know, what you read and what you write, what you feel. I still feel like I’m Vietnamese. BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about the pieces of the culture that are meaningful to you that still resonate. NGUYEN: I think it’s family, you know? Family is the root of everything. Helping your family, helping each other, the love of your country, that feeling that you still feel, you know? When you feel warm, you feel right here that you’ll be at home. American identity ; children ; culture ; family ; language ; Vietnamese Americans ; Vietnamese language 2495 What it means to be American BRODY: So, the United States has been your home for a long time now. What does it mean to you to be American? To not just yourself, but when people say, you know, “this is what it means to be American,” what does it mean to you? NGUYEN: Okay. It means that, you know—to be American, you know, you have a lot of opportunity, you have the—you want to be productive in the society, to help the people. So that’s the—I lost my thought, let me see. (laughs) BRODY: That’s okay. NGUYEN: To make America strong, you know? Because I want America to be strong, there’s a lot of nations out there, the communist system, you know, to us is still the evil. So that’s why I want America to be—to be the star that people look at and see—to compare, you know, between the regime, the communists, and the free society, what it feels like, looks like, to be able to walk freely, talk freely, without being afraid. That’s really being an American, you know, you can say things that you feel you want to say. BRODY: What things do you think make America strong? NGUYEN: Diversity. I think we came all from different backgrounds. But when we came here, we really want to vote for America, you know? To make it strong, because wherever we came from, we know that, you know, you can make America strong because of your background. And we all want America to be strong, from maybe you talk to different people from different ethnic—they all from where they came, you know, this is their home now, even though they still have a lot of cultural background. But this is their home, you know, they want to make it strong. America ; American ; American identity ; Communism ; culture ; diversity ; ethnicity ; freedom ; opportunity ; productivity ; strength 2655 Nguyen's hopes and dreams for his children BRODY: That’s true. And just tying back to thinking about your kids and, you know, they’re growing up here in the United States as Americans without having the immigration experience. When you think about their future as Americans, as Vietnamese Americans, what are your hopes and dreams for their future? NGUYEN: I want them to be successful. But, be what you want to be. The main thing, you know, I want you to be happy, you know? So I read a story to them every night, tried to teach them character, you know, like what it feels like to be courageous, like give them stories and tell them examples, what it is to be honest, what it is to be determination, what does it mean to be a failure, you know, so all of that stuff. And so I had the book that I read to them every night, it’s the book about the diary of the boy who goes to school, and different days he experiences different things, and he writes it down. So I read that to them every night and just tell them how you feel to be like this or like that. BRODY: Right, that’s nice. NGUYEN: But the main thing, you know, I want them to be happy. There’s a lot of opportunity here that you can be. You know, you can be from an entrepreneur to anything. You know? You want to be a lawyer, you can be a lawyer. You want to be a teacher, you can be a teacher. But you have to be happy. BRODY: That’s good advice, that’s good advice. Well, is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to talk about? Or something that I forgot to ask you that— NGUYEN: Not really. BRODY: Not really. Well, thank you very much. This has been such a great conversation and I really appreciate your time and your willingness to share your story. Thank you. NGUYEN: No problem. I mean, if you have more questions, I don’t mind to come back and answer your questions. BRODY: Excellent. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. NGUYEN: Good. careers ; character ; courage ; determination ; employment ; entrepreneurs ; faliure ; happiness ; happy ; honesty ; jobs ; opportunity ; parenting ; success Baylor University Institute for Oral History Chi Nguyen Oral History Memoir Interview Number 1 Interviewed by Betsy T. Brody October 27, 2018 Richardson, Texas Project -- Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans: The Making of the Vietnamese Community in North Texas BRODY: This is Betsy Brody. Today is October 27, 2018. I am interviewing, for the first time, Mr. Chi Nguyen. This interview is taking place in my office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and is part of the Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans project. All right, good morning. Thank you joining me here. Can you tell me a little bit about your life in Vietnam before you came to Texas? |00:00:34| NGUYEN: Yes. So we--I came from a big family. So we had about seven of us. So after &#039 ; 75, the Fall of Saigon in 1975--so, my father was put in the, you know, reeducation camp. So my mom said--so we had to move from, you know, Danang. That&#039 ; s where we grew up, and we moved to Saigon, you know, before the Fall. Then after my dad gets in the camp, my mom is single, by herself, raised seven of us. BRODY: Wow. NGUYEN: So we all head to, you know, she worked all by herself, all she wanted us to do, you know, go to school and try to learn and work hard on the learning. |00:01:24| BRODY: Yes. Had you dad been involved in the military? NGUYEN: Yes, he was in the army, and he was a captain, you know, he vowed to promote up, but you know with the Fall of Saigon, so we had to--think about the future, you know, I mean, you cannot stay in Danang. It&#039 ; s a smaller city, it&#039 ; s a lot more under control. If you&#039 ; re in the bigger city, so that&#039 ; s the (unintelligible), you know, they want to move to Saigon. BRODY: Yes. So you got to the city and your mom worked really hard to raise you guys. NGUYEN: Yep. She worked all by herself. Looking back, I can&#039 ; t imagine, you know, that she can raise all six of us--six--seven of us all by herself. BRODY: Strong lady, strong lady. NGUYEN: Yes, yes. |00:02:15| BRODY: So she emphasized education. How old were you at this time? NGUYEN: So, in &#039 ; 75 I was about seven years old. BRODY: Seven. So you were in grade school? NGUYEN: Yes. So I was in first grade. We all had to go to school every day. Going home, you know, my older sister and brother helped the younger ones with the homework, all of that, we all have to do that by ourself, you know? And we helped mom a little bit, but you know the main thing, you know, she&#039 ; s the worker in the family. BRODY: Yeah. What did she do? NGUYEN:Everything. Whatever that she can make money ; you know, sell stuff. So when we moved to Saigon, you know, they wanted move(??) to us. A neighbor that was selling stuff via the markets in our neighborhood, so she can sell different things. You know, she&#039 ; d make anything to sell, from cookies to bún thịt nướng cha gio, bún riêu, you know, those stuff like that. So she&#039 ; d make anything just to make a daily living. |00:03:20| BRODY: That&#039 ; s amazing, and she must have been a very strong lady to handle all that. So then the Fall of Saigon happened, you guys were--what precipitated you leaving Vietnam? NGUYEN: So, we went to school and you know, back then, Vietnam and China had some kind of war, you know? So everybody had to be enlisted in the military. So when you come of age, you know, like seventeen, eighteen, you had to go to the military. And when you go there, the chance for you to die is very high because they&#039 ; re sending you to Cambodia, at the front end of the war. So my mom thought about this--we had to go. So me and my brother, you know, eventually that&#039 ; s--you know, we had to leave. BRODY: So you were--I&#039 ; m sorry--you were seventeen? NGUYEN: Seventeen. BRODY: Okay. And so you and your brother, she decided that it was safer for you to-- NGUYEN: Yes, and have better future, that we had to go. Because, you know, if you&#039 ; re under the former military, you don&#039 ; t get a lot of chance, you know? |00:04:44| BRODY: How did you feel about the decision? Were you a part of the decision-making process? NGUYEN: No, not really. (both laugh) But, you know, I knew that she wanted us to go, and we had brothers who came here first. BRODY: Oh, okay. When did your brothers, your older-- NGUYEN: He came in &#039 ; 78. BRODY: Okay. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he came all by himself. My uncle and my--so on my mom&#039 ; s side, you know, most of them came in &#039 ; 75. So my brother came first, and he went to school, same thing, you know? The focus, you had to go get your school and get a degree and find a job. So he came first. |00:05:24| BRODY: Where was he? Did he go to a resettlement? NGUYEN: No, he came--so he came in &#039 ; 78. So he stayed with my uncle in Arkansas. It&#039 ; s a small city, you know. It&#039 ; s not a lot of--you want to be something, you want to move to a bigger city. So that&#039 ; s why he decided to move by himself to Dallas. Yeah, and went to school in Dallas after high school. BRODY: Okay. Where did he go to school? NGUYEN: He went to DeVry. BRODY: Okay. To DeVry, yes. And so then afterwards he got a job, and-- NGUYEN: Yeah. He got an engineering job, then we came right afterward. BRODY: So, you were in communication with him and knew where he was-- NGUYEN: Yes, yes. |00:06:12| BRODY: So you and your brother, tell me the story of how you got here. NGUYEN: So, it&#039 ; s--the new year, from 1986, you know, I think it&#039 ; s January fifth--so me and my brother went to our uncle&#039 ; s house, you know, where we stayed for the night. Then the day after, you know, all of us went together, came--you know, escaped together. So my uncle had--I think he had--let me try to remember, he had three children. They were all very young. You know, like one, two, or three years old, yeah. And his wife. So early in the morning, we went to the small sea city where you can escape by boat. So we went to the smaller city and stayed there. And you&#039 ; re kept stay in the safe house until the time is right, then they send you to the boat. BRODY: So you had already made arrangements, your uncle had already made arrangements with someone, and paid? NGUYEN: Yes. So you had to pay, I think it cost--I don&#039 ; t know how much it cost, but you pay by gold. You don&#039 ; t pay by money. BRODY: Right, gold. NGUYEN: Yeah. So we went to the small city, you know, it&#039 ; s a seaside city. I don&#039 ; t remember the name now, (laughs) you know? BRODY: That&#039 ; s okay. NGUYEN: But, you know, somewhere in the south of the seaside. So we escaped early in the morning, we went to the small boat. Then from the smaller boat, you know, they take you to the bigger boat. Then-- BRODY: And this was all prearranged, the bigger boat was already prearranged? NGUYEN: Yes. So that&#039 ; s about a hundred--I think 101 people on the boat, small boat. It&#039 ; s about maybe--I don&#039 ; t know how long, but it&#039 ; s not that long, the body about the size of that fence right there. BRODY: Okay. So not a very big boat at all. |00:08:16| NGUYEN: Yeah. People were packed together, we had no room to move, just like you see on TV now when people are trying to move from Cuba. People pack in the boat. That&#039 ; s how we are, like tuna, all packed together. |00:08:31| BRODY: Wow. So that must have been pretty scary. NGUYEN: Eh, actually, I guess--I was so young and back then, you know, we didn&#039 ; t think much. We just wanted to get out, and that&#039 ; s all I thought about, you know? So I didn&#039 ; t think much, wasn&#039 ; t scared ; scare was not a factor at all. BRODY: Oh, okay. So you were just doing it. NGUYEN: You just said you had to go, you had to go, you know? You had to make the difference, you know, we had to go first and we can have the family later. So that&#039 ; s why we just--you had to do it. So yeah, we were on the boat in the ocean for about five days. Most of the time we had no water, you know, because the main thing you can bring with you-- BRODY: The clothes on your back. NGUYEN: Actually, just nothing at all, just one set of clothes. Whatever you wear, that&#039 ; s all. My mom gave me a little bit of gold, so we put it in the pocket, you know? So we&#039 ; re on the boat for about five days. Lucky that we did not get robbed by the pirates or anything at all. BRODY: Yeah, that is lucky. NGUYEN: Very lucky. I mean, a lot of people died. You know, you heard the stories of a lot of people dying on the sea. Yeah. So you&#039 ; re on the boat for five days, and I think we went to--we came to Malaysia, we stayed there for a few months, you know, go through the screening process--no, we came to Pulau Bidong, then we stayed there for about three or four months with the screening process, since, you know, the US had our paperwork already, since my brother came first and my father&#039 ; s in the military so we get the--they had the number to look up everything, match. So we got a fast track, you know, since we had the record already. So after four months, me and my brother went first. So me and my brother moved to Philippines, you know, for six months, learning period. Then after almost a year I came to the US. |00:10:48| BRODY: Okay, and so was the first place that you came Texas? NGUYEN: Yes, Irving! Irving, and we stayed in Irving the whole time. Didn&#039 ; t move at all. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s amazing. NGUYEN: So my uncle had to stay since he didn&#039 ; t have the--you know, they had the screen for political purpose or economic purpose. So he got screening, he didn&#039 ; t pass, even though his uncle and the rest of the family here. BRODY: Oh boy. NGUYEN: Yeah. So he had to provide some kind of documentation. So luckily, my mom got some kind of documentation to send it to him, and he&#039 ; d be able to--came to the US much later. BRODY: So how much later? NGUYEN: He came in--I think at least five months or six months after, yeah. BRODY: Okay. And he joined you in Irving? NGUYEN: No, he joined his brother in Arkansas. BRODY: Oh, in Arkansas, okay. NGUYEN: He came to--they came to Arkansas, then after a few months he moved to Dallas, then moved to California. |00:11:51| BRODY: Oh, okay, so he ended up in California. Tell me about your first days in Irving. NGUYEN: Oh, wow. BRODY: So your brother was here. What do you remember from that time? NGUYEN: It&#039 ; s beautiful, you know? We came--it&#039 ; s cold, you know, November cold. So we landed in Seattle, then from Seattle we landed to Dallas. So I think we came here around eleven o&#039 ; clock, midnight? Eleven at night? Yeah. The city was beautiful with the lights and the bridge, the one thing that amazed me about--the way that the road and the structure is so amazing, you know? You can go in and out, up and down, go everywhere. So easy to go, not like Vietnam. So it&#039 ; s beautiful. It&#039 ; s cold, you know, it&#039 ; s about Thanksgiving, you know, with the holiday. You see a lot of holiday spirit, and my brother took us to the mall, and it&#039 ; s beautiful. It&#039 ; s so scary though. (laughs) BRODY: Which mall, do you remember which mall? NGUYEN: We went to Irving Mall. BRODY: Irving Mall, okay. So it was big. (laughs) |00:12:56| NGUYEN: Big. Huge, you know? I think the first night we came we had pho, which is totally different from the way we ate it in Vietnam. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s really interesting. What was different about it? NGUYEN: It had to do with the--so in Vietnam you eat, you know, not ready-to-cook pho. You know, pho, you boil-- BRODY: It takes all day. NGUYEN: Yeah. But in Vietnam, you had pho too, you know, like they make it the right way. The noodles, they make it--not the instant noodles. BRODY: Right, so that was different. NGUYEN: Yeah, very different than, you know--but it tastes good. You know, I remember, it tastes good. So, my brother stayed at the apartment by himself, so we stayed at the apartment for--I think almost a year. Then my brother saved enough money, he bought the house. He bought the first house. BRODY: Wow. So what was his job? NGUYEN: He was an engineer. BRODY: Engineer. So he&#039 ; d gone to DeVry, become an engineer. So he was-- |00:13:57| NGUYEN: You know, back then he&#039 ; d got a good job, compared to--salary, you know? So he got a good job. So he&#039 ; s saved enough money, so he bought the house in Irving. So we moved to that house and we went to school. My brother--so I finished high school, then I went to college. My brothers go to high school. BRODY: So when you got here, you were already finished with high school. Or you just finished it out here? NGUYEN: No. So when we came--so when we came my brother wanted me to go-- even though I&#039 ; m eighteen already, he said, you know, I need to go to high school at least a year so that way I can learn English. So he wanted me to go there, and so I went to MacArthur High School with my brother. My mom sent us some documentation, like we&#039 ; d been in school, and these are the credits that we learned in school. So, yeah. So it took me one year to finish the high school here. |00:14:54| BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about going to high school at MacArthur High School. So obviously, you didn&#039 ; t know anybody when you got there. NGUYEN: No, we still don&#039 ; t. I still don&#039 ; t have any friends, we didn&#039 ; t have any friends back then. (laughs) BRODY: (laughs) That&#039 ; s really funny. NGUYEN: So, the main thing you learn, you know, in high school and the goal is to learn English, so I was in the ESL class. The teacher was very nice, she was very nice. I don&#039 ; t remember her name now. I can picture her face, you know, yeah. My English wasn&#039 ; t that good, so I don&#039 ; t even remember the teacher&#039 ; s name. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s okay, but she taught you English and she was a good teacher. NGUYEN: Yes. She taught me English, good teacher, I took all the classes, like the other American student class. So we had to learn more, you know, at night. You had to go to a dictionary, try to read and-- BRODY: Right. Because you were taking the regular classes in English, but having to learn-- NGUYEN: Yes. So we took math, history and government, and all of that class, yeah. And so I took about--yeah, so--then when I finished high school I took the SAT, then I applied for--I went to University of Dallas. |00:16:11| BRODY: University of Dallas, okay. Fantastic. NGUYEN: Yeah. So then after that, four years, I got my BS. I always wanted to be a doctor, but with the English, you know, I didn&#039 ; t do good on my MCAT. I got the interview but, you know, I guess I didn&#039 ; t do well in the interview either. Yeah, so I ended up--then I thought about--so for two years I thought about what should I do with my life, you know? I tried getting in medical school, I didn&#039 ; t get in. Then I said, &quot ; Okay, I need to do something else, I cannot do this.&quot ; You know? Working minimum hours, you know? So I decided to--I went to pharmacy school. BRODY: Pharmacy school. Where did you go to pharmacy school? NGUYEN: UT. |00:16:56| BRODY: UT. Great, great. So tell me about--just to go back a little bit, during that period where you&#039 ; re living with your brother and your other brother was also living with you and you were in high school, did you interact very much with other people, neighbors, or the community? NGUYEN: Not at all. So the neighbor, later on I interacted with the neighbor when I went to university, then I learned more English, then we interacted with the neighbor, she was very nice, yeah. She&#039 ; s passed away now. She was a retiree, teaching piano every day. She went to church and was teaching piano. In high school we didn&#039 ; t know any friends. You know, we had a few Vietnamese friends. But I didn&#039 ; t hang out with any students at all ; you know, went to school--we walked to school, and we walked home every day. You know. We got bullying by other student, one time. |00:17:59| BRODY: Really? What did--like, what kind of bullying? NGUYEN: So, I guess me and my brother were just walking home, and minding our own business, and people just come and say--I don&#039 ; t remember what they said, but they wanted to fight us and pushed us around and all of that stuff. And me and my brother keep walking and we just mind our business and go home. BRODY: That must have been scary. Did it happen often? NGUYEN: No, just one time. Yeah. But, you know, we just mind your business and go home. BRODY: Were they kids from the school? NGUYEN: I think they came from school. |00:18:36| BRODY: Yeah, but they just were messing around with you? Wow. So it sounds like learning English was the biggest initial hurdle, right? So had you-- NGUYEN: Yes. I think it&#039 ; s very difficult, you know, every word that you learn--you know, I took French in Vietnam in high school, so when I came--my brother and my mom helped get us to learn English at home, you know, with a tutor, but you know, it&#039 ; s not much what you learn. And you learn mainly how to read-- BRODY: Yes, speaking-- NGUYEN: --but we don&#039 ; t learn how to speak at all. So very difficult to communicate. Even though you&#039 ; d read it, you can&#039 ; t understand sometimes. But we cannot say it, you know? It&#039 ; s hard to say. BRODY: Yeah, it is difficult. NGUYEN: It&#039 ; s a different practice, yeah. BRODY: So what was the most helpful thing to you in building your confidence in English? NGUYEN: I think, you know--so I guess my brother kept saying, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to have to go to school. That&#039 ; s the only way that you can make it here. If you don&#039 ; t go to school, you cannot make it here.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s why we had to, every day, we just had to study and try to learn the vocabulary, you know, read and do good in school. So even though it took longer for us to finish the homework, but you know, think about the family that you still have in Vietnam and you know what my brother went through already, so he knew the system that, you know, we had to go to school, and that&#039 ; s why we had to do it. |00:20:20| BRODY: Yeah. So you were really motivated by wanting to succeed. So pharmacy school at UT ; did you know other people down in Austin when you went there? NGUYEN: Still, (laughs) you know, I didn&#039 ; t hang out with a lot of Americans, so I did hang out with my Vietnamese friend. So I knew Dai back in UT, but I didn&#039 ; t say much with her. You know, she didn&#039 ; t speak Vietnamese, so I did hang out with the other students who spoke Vietnamese. BRODY: So that&#039 ; s interesting, yeah. So you had a level of comfort that was higher with other students who spoke Vietnamese, so the language is really key to the-- NGUYEN: Yes, yes. So I only hang out with the Vietnamese. Sometimes I don&#039 ; t feel-- we don&#039 ; t share the same thing, that&#039 ; s why--with the background, you know? So it&#039 ; s hard to talk about, and back then people--I don&#039 ; t know. I just hang out with the Vietnamese students. BRODY: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it&#039 ; s-- NGUYEN: More comfort. BRODY: --comfortable and easy to communicate, and, you know, so much of friendship is communication, right? So that makes sense. What was Austin like? |00:21:33| NGUYEN: Austin is beautiful, you know? So the--so when I went to Austin, you know, we stayed with--I stayed with others. First I went, I stayed with a friend&#039 ; s family for the first semester. Then after that, I find a few more friends, so we all move out to the apartment. So there&#039 ; s seven of us in a two bedroom apartment, you know, close to school, and we all had the same, you know, goal is go to school. And we had fun together but, you know, they all learn different subjects ; some of them are engineering students, some of them are medical students, premed. BRODY: Right. And pharmacy, of course, in your case. NGUYEN: Yes. |00:22:20| BRODY: So, school--after pharmacy school, what happened? NGUYEN: So after pharmacy school I did my rotation here in Dallas, then I did my rotation at Parkland and I got the job at Parkland. BRODY: Great! NGUYEN: I&#039 ; ve worked at Parkland since then. BRODY: Oh, wow. So you have been at Parkland for a very long time. (laughs) NGUYEN: For a long time. (laughs) |00:22:42| BRODY: Being in the workforce, so now you&#039 ; re a professional, you&#039 ; re a pharmacist, and you&#039 ; re back in the community that you initially settled in, what are some changes that you&#039 ; ve noticed, as you&#039 ; ve been here for such a long time, in that community? NGUYEN: For the Vietnamese community, it&#039 ; s gotten a lot bigger. You know, people-- there&#039 ; s a lot of stores that you see, the Vietnamese people. I see the Vietnamese people expanding to a different career path. So back then when my brother came, you know, all of them are engineers. You know, it&#039 ; s quick, it&#039 ; s fast, all the people that I know from his generation is an engineer. So fast, you go to school, the math and the physics, those are easy with numbers, so you don&#039 ; t need to know a lot of English, you know? I mean, you can do it. Now, I see the Vietnamese community expand to a lot of different--you have doctors, we have lawyers, we have all kinds of careers that I see that&#039 ; s a Vietnamese. There&#039 ; s a big Vietnamese health professional in Dallas, you know. I was a member back then, so we did a lot of things for the community. We do a health fair for the community every year, twice a year. BRODY: That&#039 ; s great, that&#039 ; s great. So it&#039 ; s a community that is--it sounds like, still very focused on education. |00:24:16| NGUYEN: Yes, very focused. Back--Vietnamese can, you know, we don&#039 ; t stay together in one city. Everybody is somewhere. BRODY: Yeah, everybody has moved on to different places. So your first job was at Parkland, you&#039 ; re still working at Parkland, and--let&#039 ; s see, so we&#039 ; ve already talked about that. When you came first, you said you were mostly with your family, with your brother. Did you--were members of a church or a temple at that time? |00:24:49| NGUYEN: Yes. So when we came from--I think with the help of the Catholic diocese in Dallas. So that&#039 ; s where we came every week to get the money, or every month--I don&#039 ; t remember now. We&#039 ; d get some benefits. So, some clothes. There&#039 ; s a priest&#039 ; s name--I think he&#039 ; s at Dallas--stayed in one of the Dallas churches, I don&#039 ; t remember the church, but in downtown Dallas. He was very nice. I don&#039 ; t think it was the Guadalupe Church, but he was very nice, he helped us a lot. BRODY: Were you Catholic? NGUYEN: No, no. No, I was Buddhist, but, you know, there&#039 ; s no temple back then. Now we have so many temples, but there&#039 ; s only one temple initially then, now it&#039 ; s so many. Yeah, with the help of the Catholics, you know, so that&#039 ; s why I went to the Catholic school. BRODY: Yeah, at the University of Dallas. So it sounds like you went to the diocese, or was it Catholic Charities [USA]? And they gave you some clothes and maybe money as well. NGUYEN: Yeah. So we got the help, I think six months you got some money. Then after that, you&#039 ; re on your own. |00:26:06| BRODY: Yeah. Were they able to give you advice or guidance? NGUYEN: No, mainly, you know, mainly my brother, you know? He encouraged us to remain in school and just focus. BRODY: Fantastic. That&#039 ; s good advice. NGUYEN: Yeah. But my brother, eventually he moved to California. He just wanted to stay with the uncle. |00:26:26| BRODY: Oh, okay. So you and your other brother stayed here. So, back in Vietnam, your dad was involved with the military, and it sounds like your mom had resources to sort of make sure that you guys stayed in school. Did you feel like when you came--I mean, what were your experiences with social class when you came here? Did you feel like you were in the same sort of level that you had been in Vietnam, or was there a change? NGUYEN: I mean, I didn&#039 ; t pay much to the social class. I know that, you know, we were on the lower level, but, you know, it&#039 ; s not that you think about it, you know? You think about the future. Regardless of where you&#039 ; re at, there&#039 ; s a future there that you--and you want to get to that future. BRODY: And the key to that, sounds like for you, it was education, right? NGUYEN: Yes. I mean, for all of us, all of my brothers and sisters, came much later, and they all went to school. |00:27:30| BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about the rest of your family coming. When did they come? NGUYEN: So my brother came with us, then he went to California to stay with my uncle, then he went to University of San Jose, he&#039 ; s an engineer. BRODY: The brother that came with you? NGUYEN: Yeah. All of my brothers and sisters came much later, and they&#039 ; re much older than I was when I came, you know? They all had a job back in Vietnam already, so my sister&#039 ; s an engineer. The other brothers and sisters, you know, were teachers, and another sister just stayed at home. But when they came, they all went to school again. Like they went to community college, then they all went to university and got a job, yeah. |00:28:23| BRODY: So they came maybe in the eighties, then? NGUYEN: So--no. I came in &#039 ; 86, they came in 2004. BRODY: Oh, okay. Yeah, recently. More recently. NGUYEN: Yeah. They came in 2004. So most of them stayed in Dallas. My mom, after we came--so when we came, everybody stayed in Dallas. You know, the rest of them, my mom wanted to move to California with my uncle. So he moved. When they moved, my brother and sister moved with them, except--so two of my sisters moved. One brother and one sister stayed in Dallas with me, but they all went to school. So the brother and sister who stayed with me went to UTA. My brother--my two sisters in California went to Santa Cruz University. BRODY: Okay, fantastic. NGUYEN: And even here, you know, my father and my mom worked hard and tell my sister and brother, you know, you guys need to go to school. So they still supported us, you know, after they came. |00:29:31| BRODY: So your mom and dad both came too. NGUYEN: Yes. BRODY: Where are they? NGUYEN: They&#039 ; re in California. They work. My mom--my dad works for more like, you know, golf, you know, cleaning, minimum hour job. My mom works for some seafood packaging company. BRODY: So now the whole family is in the US? NGUYEN: Yes. So they work minimum hour job, and they save money and support us. My sister and brother didn&#039 ; t have the work, they just had to go to school. Then after that they help out, you know, get a part-time job. But still, my parents&#039 ; goal is the same. You know, regardless of your age, you need to go to school. If you don&#039 ; t get a job, don&#039 ; t get a degree, you can&#039 ; t find a job. So they all went to school, and they all get a degree and get a job. BRODY: That&#039 ; s a big accomplishment for your parents. |00:30:27| NGUYEN: Yes, even though they work minimum hours, they still can save money. That&#039 ; s amazing. It&#039 ; s a small house where they stay in California. It&#039 ; s like, it has two rooms, this room and the other room. Maybe three rooms. It&#039 ; s about four hundred square feet or something. So I remember, every year, I came to California to visit, we stay in one family room, we all lie on the floor. (laughs) BRODY: Right. A lot of people. NGUYEN: A lot of people. Yeah, but they manage. It&#039 ; s amazing that, you know, my parents sacrifice for all of us. |00:31:05| BRODY: They really did. And your dad--since your mom had been raising all of you as a single mom, when did your dad return to the family? NGUYEN: So he came--he returned after seven years, or seven and a half years, in the camp. Yeah. Then after that he couldn&#039 ; t find a job, you know, with the background. Then they processed, my brother sponsored them-- BRODY: Your brother that came first? Okay, so then that&#039 ; s-- NGUYEN: So that&#039 ; s how they came with--and they came with their--what do you call the one if you work in the South government, you came under the ODP? BRODY: Oh, the ODP program. NGUYEN: Yeah, ODP program. And they were sponsored by I think Senator McCain. BRODY: Oh, by Senator McCain. NGUYEN: And John Kerry. BRODY: Oh, okay. Did they ever interact with Senator McCain and Kerry? NGUYEN: No, but you know, that program is sponsored by the-- |00:32:02| BRODY: Oh I see, yes, that program was sponsored by them. Yes. Okay, well that is-- one of my other questions is, in terms of speaking of the Senators and the law, did your family or yourself have any engagement with politics once you came here? Are you interested or engaged? NGUYEN: I mean, it&#039 ; s very--the US government is very interesting. I love the government, I think it&#039 ; s a very good government model. But at the same time, it has some flaws to it. BRODY: Yes, what do you think some of those flaws are? NGUYEN: I mean, that&#039 ; s why we get ourselves in the current situation, you know? It&#039 ; s a democratic society, it&#039 ; s very hard to get things done, you know? It takes forever to get one thing done, because everybody wants to do this and that and too many voices, you know? In Saigon it had to do with, you know, the term limits, but there&#039 ; s no term limit. So, it becomes their job, you know? So then they&#039 ; re protecting themselves, so that&#039 ; s what I don&#039 ; t like. BRODY: Yeah. So are you politically engaged, or anybody in your family? NGUYEN: I&#039 ; m not. I vote, you know-- BRODY: Well, that&#039 ; s engaged. NGUYEN: I do my right, I exercise my right to vote, but I&#039 ; m not engaged in, you know, in the (unintelligible). |00:33:47| BRODY: Okay. Now, you mentioned that you had two kids. How did you meet your wife? Is she also Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Yes, she&#039 ; s Vietnamese. I met my wife through another friend. So we just went to go out and just met at the, you know, at the restaurant and I get her number and talk to her. BRODY: Did she grow up here as well? NGUYEN: No. She grew up in Vietnam and they came much later. I think they came in--she came in 2004. BRODY: Are there differences--I&#039 ; m curious--in, you know, what we talked about earlier, how when you were in Austin at UT, you gravitated towards students who also had shared your kind of experience of being Vietnamese and coming to this country. Is there a different perspective from people who, like your wife, came later on, or is it kind of a shared experience still? NGUYEN: I think it&#039 ; s still shared. When she came, you know, I mean, English is the main thing, you know, communication. So she--by the time she came, you know, there&#039 ; s a bigger Vietnamese community already, so she had a lot more friends than I did in college. When I went to University of Dallas, there were maybe three or four Vietnamese students, you know, at University of Dallas, and none of them speak Vietnamese. So I didn&#039 ; t hang out with any of them, you know? BRODY: Right. And you were focused on your studies, too. NGUYEN: Yeah. And when my wife came, you know, there&#039 ; s a bigger community and everybody speaks Vietnamese already. BRODY: Yeah, there is a--it&#039 ; s a different experience. NGUYEN: And she has a lot more friends, yeah. |00:35:28| BRODY: That&#039 ; s interesting. That community really has grown, and you&#039 ; ve been here with a front row seat for watching the growth of the community. There&#039 ; s the restaurants and the temples and so on. Do you think that--if you could think of a few words to describe the Vietnamese community in this area, what words would choose? NGUYEN: Strong, but they&#039 ; re not unified. BRODY: Not unified. What are some different sort of pieces of that community? NGUYEN: I think it&#039 ; s that there&#039 ; s a gap between the old generation and the young generation leadership. I think the old generations still think with the memory back then, they&#039 ; re not ready to let go. BRODY: So they&#039 ; re still thinking about Vietnam and about the war, the older generation. NGUYEN: Yeah. So the new generation think differently, like, openness with Vietnam, all of that, you know? So there&#039 ; s a difference. But we&#039 ; re not unified, you know? We want the freedom of Vietnam, but so many things that you&#039 ; re not unified to do the same thing. |00:36:55| BRODY: Yeah, what do you think about that, about a relationship with Vietnam for the United States? NGUYEN: For me, it&#039 ; s a good thing that you need to open up, you know, that&#039 ; s how you can let the people know what it&#039 ; s like to be free. If people don&#039 ; t know what it means to be free, then how do you know to fight for their freedom? So it&#039 ; s good that we need to open up and let them know. Now with the open internet, you know, Vietnamese don&#039 ; t have-- not like China. I think they have a lot more open communication, internet. So you see with all the protests in Vietnam nowadays, that people start to learn, people know there&#039 ; s a freedom that you can fight for, you know? So it makes the difference. BRODY: And so do you think that the Vietnamese Americans and especially the younger generation are a factor in helping open up that thinking about freedom in Vietnam? NGUYEN: I think it has to do with Vietnam--I think they&#039 ; ll open up first with the US and the Vietnam, I think they had the open relationship, you know, back in maybe 1986 or 1987. So with that openness, you know, it brings a lot more openness to Vietnam. And if people here start to share stories on the internet and when they went back to Vietnam and visit, you know, they share stories, so yeah. BRODY: About their lives here in-- NGUYEN: Yeah, their life here and, you know, what it means to be free and all of that. Back then, you know, in Vietnam, you cannot say anything to the leadership, you know, if you say anything bad then, you know, you go to jail. People are more opened up now, they can say more things. BRODY: Right. It&#039 ; s less risky. NGUYEN: Yeah. |00:38:54| BRODY: Well, tell me, since you used that phrase--I&#039 ; m interested--to you, what does it mean to be free? NGUYEN: You know, free is a--free, you can do things that you want to do, you can say anything that you want to do, but at the same time, people here sometimes take it so lightly, they don&#039 ; t take their responsibility. So free doesn&#039 ; t mean you can do anything you want. You know, free has limitations to what you can do. BRODY: Yeah, freedom and responsibility. NGUYEN: And that always has to go together, and sometimes people here take it for granted, they don&#039 ; t have that responsibility, you know? |00:39:43| BRODY: Yeah, that makes sense. So, you&#039 ; re kind of bridging--your experience bridges the--you know, you&#039 ; re not really the old generation in that you&#039 ; re not old, but you&#039 ; re not a new arrival either, and, you know, you have kids of your own. How do you think of yourself, your identity as an American, as a Vietnamese American? NGUYEN: I think of myself as Vietnamese American, you know? I still have a lot of culture since I grew up in Vietnam, I still have a lot of thinking like the Vietnamese. My kids are totally different now, you know, they don&#039 ; t think like that already. (laughs) |00:40:25| BRODY: What are the differences that you&#039 ; ve noticed? NGUYEN: They&#039 ; re telling me that, you know, Americans, they don&#039 ; t need to learn Vietnamese. BRODY: Oh, interesting. So did you want them to learn Vietnamese? NGUYEN: Well yes, they go to school, they go to Vietnamese school. BRODY: They do, okay. But they&#039 ; re saying they&#039 ; re-- NGUYEN: But for me, I think I still identify myself as more, like, Vietnamese American, you know, more Vietnamese than American, even though I&#039 ; ve stayed here longer than I grew up in Vietnam, you know? I&#039 ; m fifty years old now, yes, but I still have a lot of culture, you know, what you read and what you write, what you feel. I still feel like I&#039 ; m Vietnamese. |00:41:02| BRODY: Yeah. Tell me about the pieces of the culture that are meaningful to you that still resonate. NGUYEN: I think it&#039 ; s family, you know? Family is the root of everything. Helping your family, helping each other, the love of your country, that feeling that you still feel, you know? When you feel warm, you feel right here that you&#039 ; ll be at home. |00:41:33| BRODY: So, the United States has been your home for a long time now. What does it mean to you to be American? To not just yourself, but when people say, you know, &quot ; this is what it means to be American,&quot ; what does it mean to you? NGUYEN: Okay. It means that, you know--to be American, you know, you have a lot of opportunity, you have the--you want to be productive in the society, to help the people. So that&#039 ; s the--I lost my thought, let me see. (laughs) BRODY: That&#039 ; s okay. NGUYEN: To make America strong, you know? Because I want America to be strong, there&#039 ; s a lot of nations out there, the communist system, you know, to us is still the evil. So that&#039 ; s why I want America to be--to be the star that people look at and see--to compare, you know, between the regime, the communists, and the free society, what it feels like, looks like, to be able to walk freely, talk freely, without being afraid. That&#039 ; s really being an American, you know, you can say things that you feel you want to say. BRODY: What things do you think make America strong? NGUYEN: Diversity. I think we came all from different backgrounds. But when we came here, we really want to vote for America, you know? To make it strong, because wherever we came from, we know that, you know, you can make America strong because of your background. And we all want America to be strong, from maybe you talk to different people from different ethnic--they all from where they came, you know, this is their home now, even though they still have a lot of cultural background. But this is their home, you know, they want to make it strong. |00:44:14| BRODY: That&#039 ; s true. And just tying back to thinking about your kids and, you know, they&#039 ; re growing up here in the United States as Americans without having the immigration experience. When you think about their future as Americans, as Vietnamese Americans, what are your hopes and dreams for their future? NGUYEN: I want them to be successful. But, be what you want to be. The main thing, you know, I want you to be happy, you know? So I read a story to them every night, tried to teach them character, you know, like what it feels like to be courageous, like give them stories and tell them examples, what it is to be honest, what it is to be determination, what does it mean to be a failure, you know, so all of that stuff. And so I had the book that I read to them every night, it&#039 ; s the book about the diary of the boy who goes to school, and different days he experiences different things, and he writes it down. So I read that to them every night and just tell them how you feel to be like this or like that. BRODY: Right, that&#039 ; s nice. NGUYEN: But the main thing, you know, I want them to be happy. There&#039 ; s a lot of opportunity here that you can be. You know, you can be from an entrepreneur to anything. You know? You want to be a lawyer, you can be a lawyer. You want to be a teacher, you can be a teacher. But you have to be happy. BRODY: That&#039 ; s good advice, that&#039 ; s good advice. Well, is there anything else that we haven&#039 ; t talked about that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? Or something that I forgot to ask you that-- NGUYEN: Not really. BRODY: Not really. Well, thank you very much. This has been such a great conversation and I really appreciate your time and your willingness to share your story. Thank you. NGUYEN: No problem. I mean, if you have more questions, I don&#039 ; t mind to come back and answer your questions. BRODY: Excellent. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. NGUYEN: Good. end of interview All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0 OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://becomingtexansbecomingamericans.org/OHMSviewer/viewer.php?cachefile=2018oh005_btba_003.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Chi Nguyen Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2018oh005_btba_003 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio